Irish Racism in Academia

m1ke

The so called "Celtic Tiger" is as a direct result of the subsidies obtained from the EU

That's complete garbage. Maybe it is your ignorance of this country and its education system that is holding you back from receiving a place here.

stereoroid

OK, there's something I'm not getting here: are there really people going in to Medicine who have not taken Biology and Chemistry all the way to high LC scores? I'd have thought them indispensable fundamentals.

Unless, I suppose, Medicine is not really a Science? In that case, Prof. Richard Dawkins, the esteemed evolutionary biologist, would like a word with you: Channel 4, 8PM tonight. He has a few points to make about "complementary and alternative medicine" :rolleyes:

PS: I moved to Ireland from the UK, 8 years ago, and had no trouble being accepted as a mature student. OK, the CAO points on my Engineering course (DN078) are "only" 500 this year, but I was interviewed at UCD, and felt no prejudice of any kind about my nationality.

seraphimvc

stereoroid wrote:

OK, there's something I'm not getting here: are there really people going in to Medicine who have not taken Biology and Chemistry all the way to high LC scores?

it's an interesting question ,isnt it??

i once asked myself about this question and i tried to ask 1 or 2 person who is doing medicine,guess what?they said the same thing!!but i think they at least took a biology or chemistry....

and so i heard a myth that you could Art in 1st yr,take and pass all those medicine subjects(of course you need to pay for those extra),qualified to do medicine in his next year!!

overall,i think this is one of the most obviously 'backdoor' of our 'flawless' CAO system:rolleyes:

snickerpuss

Even if they didn't take those subjects for the leaving, they'll still have to do Bio, Chem and Physics in university so I wouldn't worry about it. They'll be studying them regardless. Whats the big deal really? It has the highest points, of course they'll do what subjects will get them in.

They might not do the science subjects for the leaving but they'll be doing them in their degree so whats the problem?

pretty*monster

Matilda600 wrote:

I really must put on record my annoyance at new "racism" of Irish universities such as Trinity and UCD (and maybe others I don't know about). I have just been turned down for a place (6 year medicine) even though I got the UK A Level equivalent of 580 points (and I see that some applicants got in with 570).

An English person, whose race would, I presume, not have been disclosed on his/her application playing the race card. I'd like to say that that's a new one but this kind of childishness is all too familiar. Crying 'racist' makes you sound like an idiot at best, at worst you come off as a cynical and/or petulant manipulator of the worst excesses of political correctness.

The Irish tax payer funds Irish universities, should they not hen expect that Irish people will get the most benefit out of them?

Dave!

The bitterness is oozing through from the OP.

FionnMatthew

stereoroid wrote:

In that case, Prof. Richard Dawkins, the esteemed evolutionary biologist, would like a word with you: Channel 4, 8PM tonight. He has a few points to make about "complementary and alternative medicine" :rolleyes:

Esteemed evolutionary biologist and rubbish philosopher.

Actually, from what I've read, as an evolutionary biologist, he's a bit of a dinosaur too, being a gradualist. Whatever esteem he holds is honorary at best.

FionnMatthew

pretty*monster wrote:

The Irish tax payer funds Irish universities, should they not hen expect that Irish people will get the most benefit out of them?

So does the overseas student. Hiked fees and so forth.

I say let them have our second rate, modularized, third-level-by-numbers universities, and we'll take their best ones. Fair's fair.

pretty*monster

FionnMatthew wrote:

So does the overseas student. Hiked fees and so forth.

It's not really the same though, is it. Overseas subsidies Irish students by choice and can take their money elsewhere if they don't like it. Irish tax payers have to fund our universities, and do so, theoretically, for the benefit of the country.

pretty*monster

FionnMatthew wrote:

"Analyze" that, according to the Oxford English Dictionary Online.

Don't tell me you're in favour of the US backed letter 'z's ruthless war on esses?

FionnMatthew

Just a few more pointers from the world of literate Anglophones.

How times change and how short are memories.

You might have arranged this sentence better: "How times change and how short memories are." Additionally, an exclamation mark is conspicuously absent from what is, ostensibly, an exclamation. Unless you were doing something else with it?

The so called "Celtic Tiger" is as a direct result of the subsidies obtained from the EU.

You didn't need the "as" in "is as a". It should have been:"The so called "Celtic Tiger" is a direct result of the subsidies obtained from the EU."

Don't worry though. With a bit of work, you might become an adequate user of your own native language.

FionnMatthew

pretty*monster wrote:

Don't tell me you're in favour of the US backed letter 'z's ruthless war on esses?

OED backed. The phonetic "z" originates with the OED, which is a very British institution.

I'm not normally a ruthless authoritarian about language use. Shakespeare used 's's and 'z's interchangeably, so either's good enough for me.

But given the circumstances, I thought it was appropriate to point out that the strictest authority on the spelling of "analyze" uses a 'z'. So if stones are going to be thrown...

pretty*monster wrote:

It's not really the same though, is it. Overseas subsidies Irish students by choice and can take their money elsewhere if they don't like it. Irish tax payers have to fund our universities, and do so, theoretically, for the benefit of the country.

This is true and correct.

What is the Irish university system for, first and foremost, but the education of Irish students?

I mean, it's just as hard for an Irish student to get into an English University as it is for a non-national here.

I get the impression the OP feels that Irish universities are beneath her, and hence was guaranteed an offer, even though she didn't expect to take it. Rather than being from "a moral point of view" (ha!! Do you even understand "moral"?), the post stinks of indignation. I expect it was like being turned down by your fall-back smooch at a teen disco. The attitude is "How dare you?? You're ugly. You should be honoured I asked you!! I'm doing you a favour!!"

It must have been really humiliating that a university as far down the league tables as UCD wouldn't have her.

I expect it irks to think that there were probably a good few students from the UK who were just better. Mediocrity bites. Ouch.

pretty*monster

FionnMatthew wrote:

OED backed. The phonetic "z" originates with the OED, which is a very British institution.

I'm not normally a ruthless authoritarian about language use. Shakespeare used 's's and 'z's interchangeably, so either's good enough for me.

But given the circumstances, I thought it was appropriate to point out that the strictest authority on the spelling of "analyze" uses a 'z'. So if stones are going to be thrown...

I just think z is an ugly letter.

bright

Matilda600 wrote:

The so called "Celtic Tiger" is as a direct result of the subsidies obtained from the EU. Now the Irish are unwilling to "give and take". Perhaps it is time for other EU countries to discriminate against the Irish Leaving Cert.

I Must sincerely apologise, as I did not quite catch where you said you read economics.


I am afraid the subsidies of which you ignorantly speak of were not, infact, the spark for the growth period in Irelands core over the last 15 years. Of the subsidies Ireland has received in the past 20 years, in excess of 70% of the EU payments were allocated to CAP. The Implementation of REPS, REPS 2, and The Watercourse Framework and Nitrates Directive have all actively helped mainatin the high standard of rural environmental protection, expected and deemed quite neccessary by the concensus of EU citezens.

Farming and Eco-tourism unforunately were not the basis of the celtic tiger economic growth. It is generally accepted that the extremely cheap, well educated, english speaking working force in close proximity to sound transport infrastructure and corporation tax rate of 12.5%, were the pull factors for MNC's in the geo-economic climate of the time.

This cupled with reducing predisposition towards Neo-Colonialist trade patterns, resulted in the attraction of a huge amount of foreign investment (Not, as you would have us belive, handouts from the EU). This Investment has largely come from North America, hence why we are seeing the effects of collateralised debt obligations and bridged loans in the sub-prime-meltdown-credit-conscious American markets, absolutely drilling the iseq since June 10th.

Matilda600 wrote:

This would be especially helpful in the UK (after all, any Irish student who can get a place at a good UK uni is bound to take it). Remember, the Irish unis are pretty far down the league tables.

This message is written from a moral point of view not disappointment (my Irish application was an add on - I already have a place at a UK uni). I am just very annoyed by the arrogance.

This is essentially an unfounded, incendiary, vignette of your verismiliitude.

I do find it quite hard to conceive how you believe this statement to objective. I highly doubt your Irish application was an add-on at all. Surely you would have applied to a university with greater International acclaim before UCD. While the NUI constituent university in Dublin is largely considered on a par with all other med. schools in Ireland. RCSI and Trinity are International brand names, and as such are generally more appealing to international students.


Personally I have experienced both education systems- the English and the Irish. I am highly thankful that I received and Irish Leaving certificate in 9 subjects as it has already served me as a very broad educational platform. A platform, that I am sure, has afforded me the tact and dignity to comport myself in relation to a foreign application system and all those who utilise it, without a shameful display of childishness.

While this recondite abstraction may now be alien to you, DO,
for the benefit of us all, think before you post again.

Malmedicine

panda100 wrote:

For his a-levels my brother(whose now a doctor) did biology,chemistry and physics
The majority of people getting into medicnce in Ireland took home ec,french,woodwork,geography or whatever the latest easy point subjects are.....its not the quantity of subjects you study for leaving/alevls that matters,its quality.

1 the majority of people getting in to do medicine in Ireland aren't from Ireland.
2. Easy points subjects no such thing IMO not when you have to do 7 subjects.
3. To do medicine in Ireland as a student you must take at least 1 science subject often 2. Its a prerequsite for some colleges to have 2 sciences. 3 languages Irish, English and another foreign language. Plus then 2 other subjects.
4. To do medicine you need roughly 570/600 points i.e practical perfection in 6 subjects and the time it takes to learn these. Not just in 3 subjects. I also find its impossible to equate a langauge such as Irish or french to a subject such as geography. Student A might be good at 1 not the other, Student B vice versa and Student C good at both.
5. Difference between A2 and A1 in Leaving cert is what destroys students hopes of doing medicine.
6. To the OP. What are you on about. 1 science subject is needed to do medicine in UCD regardless of A-Level or Leaving Cert and that's for the 6 year course. For the 5 year its a minimum of 2 plus either 590 or 600 points. As an aside Chemistry is far more important than the other two and those without struggle with it.

OP UCD racist maybe but its only against Irish students.

I do not agree with the OP in any way but the sheer ignorance about A Levels on this forum is amazing. I went to Trinity and the whole time heard people who had done the LC going on about how A Levels were soo easy. Utter rubbish. People are overlooking the fact that A-Levels are more in depth than LC subjects. Just how much more in depth is up for debate, but I've seen the language (French, German, Spanish) exam papers, having tutored LC students during my time in Dublin, and they were a lot easier than the stuff I was doing at A-Level.

Also, people seem to forget that we have GCSE exams two years before the A-Levels, which cover over TEN subjects. These are definitely not equivalent to the Junior Cert, I have heard people educated both in the republic and the north (there were many people who had moved from the republic at my school in Tyrone) say they are somewhere between the JC and the LC in difficulty. Some people in my class thought GCSEs were almost as difficult as the Leaving. I had to do 3 sciences, 2 languages, English, maths and my chosen subjects - more than what is required for the LC. I had to do well in these before I even got to A-Levels.

As far as I understand, you pick what you want to count for points in the LC - not too different from choosing subjects you know you'll do well in for A-Levels? Also, you to get into Medicine, you MUST take 3 sciences, as far as I know. You would never get into a UK university for medicine with one science subject. There are many other points to make but these are the ones that come to mind.

2. Easy points subjects no such thing IMO not when you have to do 7 subjects.

Yes, there is such a thing. In A-Levels there are no 'easy points subjects', you have to do well in everything, and most people have 4 subjects. Like I said, we do 10 subjects (sometimes more) for GCSE so it's not like you can coast through secondary school only doing subjects that interest you. I had to pass all my GCSEs to even get onto the A-Level course.

3. To do medicine in Ireland as a student you must take at least 1 science subject often 2. Its a prerequsite for some colleges to have 2 sciences. 3 languages Irish, English and another foreign language. Plus then 2 other subjects.

To do medicine in England you usually need 3 sciences. Most people will have a GCSE in at least one foreign language, no reason to do an A-Level in one if you intend to be a doctor.

Mutant_Fruit

Amelia Dry Glob wrote:

Yes, there is such a thing. In A-Levels there are no 'easy points subjects', you have to do well in everything, and most people have 4 subjects. Like I said, we do 10 subjects (sometimes more) for GCSE so it's not like you can coast through secondary school only doing subjects that interest you. I had to pass all my GCSEs to even get onto the A-Level course.

And for my junior cert i also sat 10 subjects. Some students sit more. Big whoop. I fail to see the difference

Whilest the A-levels are inarguably more in-depth, the prevalent opinion is that they do not cover 50% more material than the equivalent course in ireland. In fact, some colleges have stated quite publicly that they will refuse to accept A-Levels as an acceptable measure of a students worth because they are too 'dumbed down'.

This makes for some interesting reading: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A-levels#Criticisms_and_Reform

You may notice the lack of a similar section on the irish Leaving Cert. It makes you wonder if, just maybe, the LC is actually a better test than the A-Levels...


EDIT: "On June 8th, 2004 it was decided that a Leaving Certificate (higher) subject will be worth two-thirds of an A-level (UK)." Interesting stuff.

themole

Amelia Dry Glob wrote:

As far as I understand, you pick what you want to count for points in the LC - not too different from choosing subjects you know you'll do well in for A-Levels?

Just to inform you for the leaving you must do maths, english, irish and a foreign language if you intend going to a university.

That leaves 3 subjects to choose. One of which should be a science subject to keep your options open.

So, now you have 7 subjects, which is the minimum . 6 of which count for points. Its possible to do more that 7 subjects if you like.

What i don't like is the over reliance on language in the LC, 3 languages, boo. I'm crap at languages

themole

Amelia Dry Glob wrote:

I had to pass all my GCSEs to even get onto the A-Level course.

We also have to pass our junior cert before continuing to do the leaving cert.

Paul Tergat

Amelia Dry Glob wrote:

I went to Trinity and the whole time heard people who had done the LC going on about how A Levels were soo easy. Utter rubbish.

well i reckon that this is all down to opinion.

the a-levels for me were a complete doss. turned up to the lectures, revised from a couple of days before the exam for a module and i was more than fine.


and to say there were no easy subjects isn't right IMO either. IT (for me) was a complete doss and I by no means consider myself an IT wizz. Maybe that was just for me but from what i've heard the A-level experience, in comparison to what i've heard about the LC, is far easier..

themole

p_larkin99 wrote:

and to say there were no easy subjects isn't right IMO either. IT (for me) was a complete doss and I by no means consider myself an IT wizz. Maybe that was just for me but from what i've heard the A-level experience, in comparison to what i've heard about the LC, is far easier..

From my point of view its easier to be better at fewer subjects especially if there are no required subjects.

seraphimvc

snickerpuss wrote:

Even if they didn't take those subjects for the leaving, they'll still have to do Bio, Chem and Physics in university so I wouldn't worry about it. They'll be studying them regardless. Whats the big deal really? It has the highest points, of course they'll do what subjects will get them in.

They might not do the science subjects for the leaving but they'll be doing them in their degree so whats the problem?

really??you do all those 'easy' points subjects,and get into those health science course(e.g. Medicine,bomedical)??those courses which lots of science interested students(those took 3 science or maybe even applied maths) dream of?

imagine that you took 3 science 2 maths in your LC,because you really like these science subjects,and want to get into those high points course.

a 600 points student of these subjects would be equal to those 'easy' 600 points student??:rolleyes: a strong base of science students do have advantage over them,dont they??this is education,mate.we are not just looking at those points.most importantly,thats why people avoid taking them,they are 'hard'.;)

as i said,this is an obvious 'flaw' of the system.and i heard the fact after i get into college ,that lots of med students taking chance on doing easy subjects just so they can get in the course actually make me kinda shocked and angry,simply because i did 3 science and 2 maths,ended up need 40 extra points to get into Pharmacy.:rolleyes:

some of my friends are in the same situation like me as well,maybe we not smart enough,but all of us feel a little bit unfair inside:cool:

nellybelly

There are many unfounded and incorrect statements in this thread. Too much emotion methinks? If anyone is interested in seeing how A-levels and LC actually compare, here is a report on the subject (Word doc) by an 'Expert Group' commissioned by UCAS.

Ultimately, LC seems to have been regarded quite favourably.

And for my junior cert i also sat 10 subjects. Some students sit more. Big whoop. I fail to see the difference

You've missed the point. Did you read my post? I said from everything I've heard, the GCSE's are NOT equivalent at all to the junior cert. There were many people in my school coming from the Republic and all of them said the GCSE's were closer to the LC than the JC. There is a post on this thread from a poster educated in Ireland and England claiming the same thing. I'm making the point that the GCSEs are our 'general education' tests, and then A-Levels are preparation for university, hence why there are fewer subjects and they are more in depth. I think it's unfair to compare A-Levels to the LC without considering that we also have a set of exams (considered by most people to be much more difficult than the JC) to pass before we get to A-Level. It's just a totally different education system and you have to consider all these things, not just see that A-Level students sit fewer subjects and think 'oh they must have it easier.'

he a-levels for me were a complete doss. turned up to the lectures, revised from a couple of days before the exam for a module and i was more than fine.

What did you do for A-Level? Did you do any of the LC syllabus in Ireland? If not, how do you know you wouldn't have found the LC equally as easy? I didn't find the A-Levels a 'complete doss' - yes it was easier in some ways studying subjects I chose and therefore found interesting, but I didn't find it a doss. My sister did Biology, Chemistry, Physics, Maths and Further Maths and she worked her ass off to get all A's.

and to say there were no easy subjects isn't right IMO either. IT (for me) was a complete doss and I by no means consider myself an IT wizz. Maybe that was just for me but from what i've heard the A-level experience, in comparison to what i've heard about the LC, is far easier..

There are indeed 'soft' subjects - the top universities published a list of subjects they wouldn't accept, and IT was one of them. IT is considered one of the easiest A-Levels possible, and people wanting to go to a top uni don't take it for A-Level. I like it and got an A* in GCSE but I knew it wouldn't be taken as seriously as say, German. It's true, you may be able to pick all 'soft' subjects (say, IT, Home Ec, Psychology and media studies) but you will not get into a good uni doing that, so what's the point? Taking this into consideration, the 'option' of doing easy subjects is no longer an option if you want the best courses. If you want to do medicine, you MUST choose sciences and maths.

Also, my boyfriend's sister just passed her LC despite doing nothing all year like you, going out every weekend, etc. That doesnt mean its ridiculously easy - she did mostly pass subjects, seemed to have a lot of subjects like art and media and she didn't get into the best college or the most prestigious course. I'm sure someone going into UCD or Trinity medicine would have had a totally different experience, just as someone aiming for medicine in a top uni in England would have had a different experience to yours.

Finally it's bugging me how many people seem to think 3 A-Levels is all you need. My school has required 4 for over 4 years now, and many people are doing 5 A-Levels - that's only a couple of subjects fewer than the LC requires.

Matilda600

To all of you who have taken the trouble to display your supposed higher level of the English language than my own I can only say (A) I'm not English dorks, I'm Irish just like you but (happily) without your hang ups (B) your collective indignation has, sadly, laid bare your deep seated feelings of inferiority when up against what you perceive as an arrogant Brit!!!! Chill, Paddies, chill!!!!!

dajaffa

The workload for the A levels and the LC is similar, 4 A level's carries approx the same workload as 6 LC subjects, so 7 LC subjects is a bit more work but no huge difference there (granted a study done a few years ago in the UK said there was little difference in the workloads for the English courses, and on a personal level, my cousin who's now doing maths in Warick was amazed at the amount we cover in LC higher maths).

The key difference is that for the LC, for most college courses you need Irish, English, Maths and a third language, so you only have real choice for the 3 remaining subjects. If you're not good at languages, you still need to do 3, and well in them if you want a high points course.

To get the very high points you need to be getting high grades in a variety of subjects, whereas for the A levels there aren't restrictions like that at all, you can do any 3/4 subjects you like, presumaly they'll be related to what you want to do, so you only need to do well in subjects you're good at (if you so choose) which makes life a lot easier.

Paul Tergat

Amelia Dry Glob wrote:

What did you do for A-Level? Did you do any of the LC syllabus in Ireland? If not, how do you know you wouldn't have found the LC equally as easy? I didn't find the A-Levels a 'complete doss' - yes it was easier in some ways studying subjects I chose and therefore found interesting, but I didn't find it a doss. My sister did Biology, Chemistry, Physics, Maths and Further Maths and she worked her ass off to get all A's.

I did maths, IT, business studies and further maths (AS). I'm not saying that the a-level is inferior to the LC, i just said from what i've heard from LC experiences a-levels seem easier. and i said for ME the a-levels were a doss. it required very little work outside of class.

Amelia Dry Glob wrote:

There are indeed 'soft' subjects - the top universities published a list of subjects they wouldn't accept, and IT was one of them. IT is considered one of the easiest A-Levels possible, and people wanting to go to a top uni don't take it for A-Level.

this is total shíte as far as i'm concerned. during my last year at school i was invited to go to the best uni's in England with a view to doing a maths degree with them (i didnt chose to take them up on it but whatever) and they knew full well what i was doing. they were more than happy to accept IT as a grade so saying the best uni's (who by the way included cambridge, oxford, bath for me) won't accept it simply isnt true (or wasnt 3 years ago)

I ended up being accepted for all the business/law/maths courses i applied for at the top univerisities (albeit the interview has weighting too i guess) but chose where i wanted to go in the end.

did maths, IT, business studies and further maths (AS). I'm not saying that the a-level is inferior to the LC, i just said from what i've heard from LC experiences a-levels seem easier. and i said for ME the a-levels were a doss. it required very little work outside of class.

IT and business studies, I'm pretty sure are on the list of 'soft subjects', which most definitely does exist.
Link

What do you mean you were 'invited' to go to the best unis in England? Do you mean you got offers? If you read the link about 'soft subjects' you'll see the top unis are willing to accept ONE soft subject but not more. If you do Maths, Physics, Chemistry and Media Studies, that's fine, but History, IT and Psychology would not be fine, for example. So your A-Level 'options' aren't really options at all if you're aiming for a top uni. You would most definitely not get into Oxbridge or any top 10 uni with four non-traditional subjects.

Esmereldina

Matilda600 wrote:

I'm not English dorks, I'm Irish just like you but (happily) without your hang ups

Er, so where does the percieved racism come into it then? :rolleyes:

/Shakes head in bemusement at this thread.