New Rules of the Road - Compulsory use of cycle lanes

aldark

Treade wrote:

Yes - has anyone noticed that the better quality cycle lanes are located in the middle class areas?

I would imagine that the qualitative aspects you've noticed might have more to do with the resources available to the council. e.g. dunlaoghaire rathdown council probably has a larger population than Fingal and therefore more money to address and fix problems in what must be for all councils quite a low priority?

From experience, cycle tracks are uniformly rubbish. If they're near a road they're constantly covered in glass as some people love to hear the sound of breaking glass thrown from car windows! It's clear that the councils have some kind of quota to fill when maintaining/designing new roads to put in red tarmac, but equally have absolutely no commitment to good design of cycle tracks.

I would not cycle on a track shared with a footpath/driveways exiting to a road - 20mph up and down with the constant threat of being hit by a reversing car? Yet, this kind of design is seen in even their newest roads. I will only use a cycletrack to avoid major car infrastructure e.g. motorway roundabouts. Even then, the track I'm thinking of (along the brehon field road in ballinteer) is shared with pedestrians who don't really think of cyclists coming at them from behind at 30mph! This is hazardous for all.

Why do the councils build such useless cycletracks? There must be an increased cost for them to separately treat sections of roadway, put up signs etc. It surely can't be long before government reacts to the increased investment and enforces rules regarding mandatory cycle tracks. Even if the govt doesn't act, in an accident situation, won't an insurer point to the fact that the cyclist was not on a mandatory cycle lane?

The end result of all of this is to move cyclists off the road and into the same position as pedestrians travelling at 2-5mph. Without physical segregation, this will lead in the short term to increased accidents involving pedestrians. In the long term this will fall off as people stop cycling around the city!

To change this mindset we need to all join the dcc and start campaigning - is there a plan?!

tampopo

Treade, yes I agree with you that cycle lanes are of a better quality in 'better' areas.

You could try councillors to get something done, but I find sometimes if you call the DCC person directly it is often quicker.
The green pages in the centre of the phone book (01) contain the State Directory. Dublin City Council have a few pages there.

Area Office, Ballyfermot: 620-7122

The one I was thinking of was Davitt Rd as they have roadsweepers there. Call them at 455-6362 and ask them if they'd take a run up Ballyfermot Rd and Sarsfield Rd. It's the glass I can't stand, bits of stones are not too bad.

Maybe the Waste Mgmt Depot at Kylemore Park, Ballyfermot would be better for road sweeping in that area 626-5122.

Rereading one of your earlier posts, you mention Lucan and Liffey Valley. SDCC have a couple of pages in the State Directory section. Try under Raods and Traffic Department or Roads Maintenance Depots or Raods Maintenance Overseers.

My 2006 version is my bible. I have bits of paperwork et al stuck in the middle of it, opening it like a priest at mass!!!!

Good luck.

Treade

tampopo wrote:

Treade, yes I agree with you that cycle lanes are of a better quality in 'better' areas.

You could try councillors to get something done, but I find sometimes if you call the DCC person directly it is often quicker.
The green pages in the centre of the phone book (01) contain the State Directory. Dublin City Council have a few pages there.

Area Office, Ballyfermot: 620-7122

The one I was thinking of was Davitt Rd as they have roadsweepers there. Call them at 455-6362 and ask them if they'd take a run up Ballyfermot Rd and Sarsfield Rd. It's the glass I can't stand, bits of stones are not too bad.

Maybe the Waste Mgmt Depot at Kylemore Park, Ballyfermot would be better for road sweeping in that area 626-5122.

Rereading one of your earlier posts, you mention Lucan and Liffey Valley. SDCC have a couple of pages in the State Directory section. Try under Raods and Traffic Department or Roads Maintenance Depots or Raods Maintenance Overseers.

My 2006 version is my bible. I have bits of paperwork et al stuck in the middle of it, opening it like a priest at mass!!!!

Good luck.

Thanks for the info Tampopo. I emailed the three councillors yesterday. No reply yet but hopefully I will get a response eventually. If I get a response I will post it up here.

I also emailed my local TD Paul Gogarty (Green Party) asking him what the Green Partys position on the mandatory use of cycles lanes is. I pointed out the dangers of cycling at speeds of upto 45kmph in close proximity to pedestrians. I assume the Green Party would be in agreement with me on this issue. I'll let you know the outcome.

oobydooby

Pity that DCC stands for two different groups (heroes and villains!) Thanks for going to the trouble of posting the relevant laws earlier Rob Fitz. Very interesting (and might be very useful!)

robfitz

aldark wrote:

Why do the councils build such useless cycletracks?

Why not ask them? These are relevant policy committees in Dublin are:

Chairperson of the Transportation & Traffic SPC
Roads & Traffic Department
Block 2, Floor 3
Dublin City Council
Civic Offices
Wood Quay
Dublin 8

Chairperson of the Transportation SPC
Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council
County Hall
Marine Road
Dún Laoghaire
County Dublin

Chairperson of the Transportation SPC
Fingal County Council
P.O. Box 174
County Hall
Swords
Fingal
Co. Dublin

Chairperson of the Transportation SPC
South Dublin County Council
County Hall
Tallaght
Dublin 24

I would suggest probing and specific policy questions; ask them to backup the answers, what research they have undertaken (not just surveys of what cyclists think they want/need), cost/benefit analysis, minimum design standards, minimum training of engineers, etc.

aldark wrote:

Even if the govt doesn't act, in an accident situation, won't an insurer point to the fact that the cyclist was not on a mandatory cycle lane?

This is very likely, I've not heard of any case though.

aldark wrote:

To change this mindset we need to all join the dcc and start campaigning - is there a plan?!

Please do. You can find more details here DCC - Membership.

As for a plan we have many projects in the works that could do with help, and projects we would like to start but don't have the bodies to work on them.

tampopo

You're welcome. Be prepared to be patient. I recently achieved success for a small project after seven and a half years. From Sept 2000 till Easter this year.
It's best to have several projects on the go at the same time and approach more than one DCC councillor. You'd think opposition councillors sitting for the GElection would be more proactive prior to an election, wouldn't you? I'm going to give it another lash come September.
My emails are being fobbed off at the moment. I must resort to the peann luaidh and see if that's any more successful.

Treade wrote:

Thanks for the info Tampopo. I emailed the three councillors yesterday. No reply yet but hopefully I will get a response eventually. If I get a response I will post it up here.

Despite my 7 1/2 year project and hassling of one local TD, separately, Mary Upton sorted something out for me in six weeks. I should, I suppose try her again, but I wanted to see if the councillors would bother their a rses. so far nothing, but I don't want to kill the golden goose re: M Upton!!!! One reason I'm continuing to harp on about things is that.... well they are there for US, so they should be doing something. On the Region/South East board/thread someone made the point that ya should approach the local lads for local issues and the national politicians for more serious stuff. I ask them all some thing or other!!!

Yeah, do let us know what or how you get on. I'll mark this thread so as I get an email if there're new posts.

regards
T.

Treade

My local GP TD Paul Gogarty has responded to my question regarding the compulsory use of cycle lanes: to begin with he is going to pose the following question to the minister of transport

"To ask the Minister to outline his interpretation of the Rules of the Road in relation to a cyclist being told to use a cycle track if it is provided; whether this rule has any history of being enforced on a regular basis; whether there are any mitigating circumstances taken into consideration such as poorly maintained or glass covered cycle tracks, which make it safer to use the road; and if he will make a statement on the matter."

As the Dail is in recess there will be no answer from the Minister until after the 26th September. So it will be a while before I get an answer.

However it is very encouraging to get a response from Paul Gogarty and I have every confidence that he will pursue the matter.

Ghost Rider

Excellent. Will you please post his response here when you get it?

Treade wrote:

My local GP TD Paul Gogarty has responded to my question regarding the compulsory use of cycle lanes: to begin with he is going to pose the following question to the minister of transport

"To ask the Minister to outline his interpretation of the Rules of the Road in relation to a cyclist being told to use a cycle track if it is provided; whether this rule has any history of being enforced on a regular basis; whether there are any mitigating circumstances taken into consideration such as poorly maintained or glass covered cycle tracks, which make it safer to use the road; and if he will make a statement on the matter."

As the Dail is in recess there will be no answer from the Minister until after the 26th September. So it will be a while before I get an answer.

However it is very encouraging to get a response from Paul Gogarty and I have every confidence that he will pursue the matter.

Treade

I will.

BeerNut

You'll get the typical PQ answer, half dodge, half pasted from a policy document, and saying that the decision to make them compulsory was based on expert advice and international best practice; that enforcement is a matter for An Garda Siochána, not the Minister for Transport; that maintenance of cycle tracks is a matter for local authorities, not the Minister for Transport; and that, in general, the rule on compulsory use of cycle lanes is in the best interests of all road users, especially since more and more cycle tracks are being provided every year and the government's commitment to sustainable transport blah blah blah.

fish-head

I believe this is quite appropriate..

daymobrew

This morning I dropped into Cabra Garda Station to ask about my complaint against a driver who nearly sided by on Ashtown roundabout last week.

I then mentioned a driver parked on the cycle track nearby, a solid white line, active from 7am to 7pm. I mentioned penalty points. The Garda said it wasn't a penalty point offence, just an 80 euro fine. When I disagreed he said "I know my job." When I got into work I checked the PenaltyPoints.ie site where it lists Driving on a cycle track, 1 point, 3 on court conviction, 60 euro fine, increased to 90 euro after 28 days. So, the guy is wrong on both counts - whether it is a penalty point offence and the fine. :rolleyes:

BeerNut

Well, I got the enforcement dodge right, but they didn't even try on the rest, just repeating what it says in the law.

Noel Dempsey wrote:

Under road traffic regulations in place since 1998 where a cycle track, bounded by solid white line roadway marking, is provided on-road or off-road it is mandatory for cyclists to use that track. The other type of cycle track that a local authority may provide is one that is bounded by a broken white line roadway marking. It is not mandatory for a cyclist to use that cycle track.

A general exception provision is provided in respect of road traffic regulations to the effect the regulations shall apply save where compliance is not possible as a result of an obstruction to traffic or pedestrians or because of an emergency situation confronting a roaduser which could not reasonably have been expected or anticipated.

Enforcement of the road traffic regulations regarding the use of mandatory cycle tracks is a matter for the Garda Síochána and my Department has no statistics in relation to the level of prosecutions brought to court in respect of the use of cycle tracks.

Not much of an answer.

Treade wrote:

However it is very encouraging to get a response from Paul Gogarty and I have every confidence that he will pursue the matter.

Looks like there's still a lot of pursuing to do. After a question in the Dáil, what's the next step?

Victor

BeerNut wrote:

After a question in the Dáil, what's the next step?

A question to the Justice minister on prosecutions?

cyclopath2001

Victor wrote:

A question to the Justice minister on prosecutions?

Of incompetent councils perhaps?

blorg

Under road traffic regulations in place since 1998 where a cycle track, bounded by solid white line roadway marking, is provided on-road or off-road it is mandatory for cyclists to use that track. The other type of cycle track that a local authority may provide is one that is bounded by a broken white line roadway marking. It is not mandatory for a cyclist to use that cycle track.

This is actually incorrect, it is mandatory for cyclists to use broken line lanes also, the only exceptions being obstruction or of if the cyclist is turning right and have indicated this intention. Of course motorists are free to use them also.

rp

blorg wrote:

This is actually incorrect, it is mandatory for cyclists to use broken line lanes also, the only exceptions being obstruction or of if the cyclist is turning right and have indicated this intention...

So these lanes confer no advantage to the cyclist, only to the motorist by confining the cyclist to a limited area of the road?

It's hard to understand the wording of the 1998 Road Traffic Regs, but it sounds like if there is a cycle lane delimited by a solid white line, and this lane is blocked by a vehicle, the only course of action for the cyclist is to get off a push the bike past the obstruction (on the pavement, if any) or wait until the obstruction clears.

You get the feeling that government policy is to discourage cycling - not enough tax take from cyclists...?

blorg

rp wrote:

So these lanes confer no advantage to the cyclist, only to the motorist by confining the cyclist to a limited area of the road?

Pretty much, yes.

Cabaal

daymobrew wrote:

I then mentioned a driver parked on the cycle track nearby, a solid white line, active from 7am to 7pm. I mentioned penalty points. The Garda said it wasn't a penalty point offence, just an 80 euro fine. When I disagreed he said "I know my job." When I got into work I checked the PenaltyPoints.ie site where it lists Driving on a cycle track, 1 point, 3 on court conviction, 60 euro fine, increased to 90 euro after 28 days. So, the guy is wrong on both counts - whether it is a penalty point offence and the fine. :rolleyes:

Nice to know those knowledgeable Gardai are standing up for the little guy, I wish to god they'd give 2 points to everyone using a mobile while driving as there's alot of near misses because of these people.

Fabio

I think cycle lanes are great WHEN they are done properly. In this country of course, cycle lanes are routinely put on the road as simple afterthoughts.

While on holidays in Spain, I found they had a pretty good system of cycle lanes and wide footpaths and most people knew not to stray into a bike's path. At times, over here, it seems that people like to walk on the cycle lane becasue it's a novelty!

I try to use cycle lanes where possible but only if it is safe to do so obviosuly.

blorg

Fabio wrote:

While on holidays in Spain, I found they had a pretty good system of cycle lanes and wide footpaths and most people knew not to stray into a bike's path.