Sinn Fein and plum jobs for 'Irish' speakers

Steerpike

Here's something from Gombeen Nation to get the Little Irelanders going!

Given Sinn Fein's tendency to use populist leftist rhetoric when it suits, it is nice to see them forced into showing their true, right-wing, lumpen-nationalist colours now and again. This time it is about Immigration Minister Conor Lenihan making modest noises about opening up the civil service to Ireland's new arrivals.

Shinner TD Aengus O Snodaigh, in an An Phoblacht article with the absurd headline of "Government Assault on Irish Language Continues" was forced to break cover in this regard, on what he sees as Lenihans's plans "for the removal of Irish language requirements for civil servants", to encourage foreign nationals to join.

Apparently Aengus and the Shinners think it's perfectly OK to exclude people from the civil service because they - along with the vast majority of Irish people - d0 not speak 'Irish'. It is well-known that the Shinners are notoriously slow learners - but even they should be able to see that the State's policies of making 'Irish' compulsory in schools has not worked, and that excluding people (Irish and foreign) from State employment because they don't share the Shinner enthusiasm for "de language", and reserving plum jobs for 'Irish speakers' is not only wrong - it's counter-productive because of the resentment it builds up.

But then again, this is a party that chose to introduce its election manifesto 'as Gaeilge' rather than in the vernacular. Nice to see that they accordingly got the spanking they deserved in the southern elections. Could have been worse, could have been a kneecapping.

flogen

Sinn Féin should realise that very few existing civil servants have any conversational Irish as it is - if it's still part of the entry exam it's very much "Ann and Barry"-level stuff.

Moved to Politics.

Jackie laughlin

There's a problem: any citizen of the state has a constitutional right to coduct his or her affairs in Irish.

Don't pay any attention to the Shinners on policy matters; they'd say anything for money or votes.

tallus

Jackie laughlin wrote:

There's a problem: any citizen of the state has a constitutional right to coduct his or her affairs in Irish.

Don't pay any attention to the Shinners on policy matters; they'd say anything for money or votes.

Tbh you could take out the word "Shinners" and transpose the name of any political party in this country.

Mick86

Has Eamonn O Cuiv been consulted on this. I doubt he'll be too happy about it.

flogen

Jackie laughlin wrote:

There's a problem: any citizen of the state has a constitutional right to coduct his or her affairs in Irish.

Even in terms of dealing with the state, the reality is that they usually can't, however.

Jackie laughlin

Tallus,
That's just cynicism and it's untrue.

Flogen,
Try it. On the rare occasions that I've done so (I'm not militant on Irish.) I got a reply in Irish or an apology and an Irish speaker was quickly found.

Steerpike

It's refreshing to to partake in a board that isn't (from what I can make out) chock-full of ultra-nationalist, snotty students. Politics.ie, for instance. You should see the invective that my post attacted there, where I was accused of "trying to finish Cromwell's work". To be honest I feel guilty about laughing, because it's quite sad really.

Jackie laughlin wrote:

There's a problem: any citizen of the state has a constitutional right to coduct his or her affairs in Irish.

Don't pay any attention to the Shinners on policy matters; they'd say anything for money or votes.

Jackie laughlin wrote:

Tallus,
That's just cynicism and it's untrue.

Flogen,
Try it. On the rare occasions that I've done so (I'm not militant on Irish.) I got a reply in Irish or an apology and an Irish speaker was quickly found.

This the issue, and the reason I drew attention to the Shinner's backward attitude. If someone wants to exercise their right to speak as Gaeilge - due to the status afforded to it in the Constitution - it can be arranged for them to do so. It doesn't mean that tax-paying foreign nationals, and most indigenous Irish people, should be discriminated against in the recruitment process or on career progression in State employment.

Jackie laughlin

You are right but if the language requirement were waived for all appointments, the facility to conduct business in Irish would quickly be lost.

A Dub in Glasgo

Steerpike wrote:

It's refreshing to to partake in a board that isn't (from what I can make out) chock-full of ultra-nationalist, snotty students. Politics.ie, for instance

Are you suggesting that this board is chock full of ultra-unionist, snotty students instead?

Venom

Jackie laughlin wrote:

You are right but if the language requirement were waived for all appointments, the facility to conduct business in Irish would quickly be lost.

So its ok to discriminate against non Irish speaking indigenous Irish people and foreign nationals is it?

A Dub in Glasgo

Venom wrote:

So its ok to discriminate against non Irish speaking indigenous Irish people and foreign nationals is it?

Yes, either that or remove the status of the Irish language as the 1st official language of the state

Venom

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Yes, either that or remove the status of the Irish language as the 1st official language of the state

Irish being the 1st official language of this state is a farce and completly inaccurate in this day and age.

A Dub in Glasgo

Maybe so but it will require a referendum to change it

delos

Jackie laughlin wrote:

You are right but if the language requirement were waived for all appointments, the facility to conduct business in Irish would quickly be lost.

They could always pay a decent bonus to anyone who is able to demonstrate that they are bilingual -this should encourage people in the civil service to improve and use the Irish language.

Hotblack Desiato

flogen wrote:

Sinn Féin should realise that very few existing civil servants have any conversational Irish as it is - if it's still part of the entry exam it's very much "Ann and Barry"-level stuff.

It's not (since about 1976) and, although there is still a small percentage of bonus marks in promotion competitions awarded to those who pass an Irish test, it is entirely possible to progress through one's career without taking, never mind passing, an Irish test. Irish is no more relevant to the vast majority of civil service jobs than Swahili or Urdu.

delos wrote:

They could always pay a decent bonus to anyone who is able to demonstrate that they are bilingual -this should encourage people in the civil service to improve and use the Irish language.

Complete waste of public money when 99% of civil service jobs require no Irish at all.

Mick86

Steerpike wrote:

It's refreshing to to partake in a board that isn't (from what I can make out) chock-full of ultra-nationalist, snotty students. Politics.ie, for instance. You should see the invective that my post attacted there, where I was accused of "trying to finish Cromwell's work". To be honest I feel guilty about laughing, because it's quite sad really.

Provos.ie:D It should carry a Government Health Warning.

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Are you suggesting that this board is chock full of ultra-unionist, snotty students instead?

Reasonably nationalist, clean-nosed perhaps.

Jackie laughlin

Discrimination isn't always a bad thing. Everytime a job ad is written, it is done in order to discriminate; it seeks to exclude those who don't have the required skill or the required education, or those too young or too old etc. etc.

The level of antagonism to the Irish language is fascinating. I think it entirely reasonable that Irish civil servants be literate in English and Irish and be numerate. OK, that's basic but anyone of normal ability can achieve it.

Venom

Jackie laughlin wrote:

Discrimination isn't always a bad thing. Everytime a job ad is written, it is done in order to discriminate; it seeks to exclude those who don't have the required skill or the required education, or those too young or too old etc.

Discrimination because of pointless reason for a job such as not being able to speak Irish is just as bad as discriminating based on race,creed or sex. In all honesty are there any people in todays Ireland who cant speak English?

Jackie laughlin

Venom,
As an aside, literacy and numeracy are both problems in Ireland today. Consult any large employer or any 3rd level teacher.

Asking someone to learn Irish is no big deal. It's nothing like racism; there is no requirement to change colour or anything else genetically determined.

Have you any idea how many people who fail to get a job, subsequently say that the problem was not any lack in them but in the employer demanding unnecessary qualifications?

/Andy\

Steerpike wrote:

Here's something from Gombeen Nation to get the Little Irelanders going!

Given Sinn Fein's tendency to use populist leftist rhetoric when it suits, it is nice to see them forced into showing their true, right-wing, lumpen-nationalist colours now and again. This time it is about Immigration Minister Conor Lenihan making modest noises about opening up the civil service to Ireland's new arrivals.

Shinner TD Aengus O Snodaigh, in an An Phoblacht article with the absurd headline of "Government Assault on Irish Language Continues" was forced to break cover in this regard, on what he sees as Lenihans's plans "for the removal of Irish language requirements for civil servants", to encourage foreign nationals to join.

Apparently Aengus and the Shinners think it's perfectly OK to exclude people from the civil service because they - along with the vast majority of Irish people - d0 not speak 'Irish'. It is well-known that the Shinners are notoriously slow learners - but even they should be able to see that the State's policies of making 'Irish' compulsory in schools has not worked, and that excluding people (Irish and foreign) from State employment because they don't share the Shinner enthusiasm for "de language", and reserving plum jobs for 'Irish speakers' is not only wrong - it's counter-productive because of the resentment it builds up.

But then again, this is a party that chose to introduce its election manifesto 'as Gaeilge' rather than in the vernacular. Nice to see that they accordingly got the spanking they deserved in the southern elections. Could have been worse, could have been a kneecapping.

Thanks for giving me the biggest laugh of my day. And whats with putting the word Irish in inverted commas? Are you suggesting that Gaeilge is not our first national language? Spot the inadequate who failed Irish exams in school.

oscarBravo

/Andy\ wrote:

Are you suggesting that Gaeilge is not our first national language?

The word "Gaeilge" is as inappropriate in that sentence as either "français" or "Deutsch" would have been.

/Andy\ wrote:

Spot the inadequate who failed Irish exams in school.

Refer to another poster as an "inadequate" again and you'll be taking a month's holiday from here.

/Andy\

oscarBravo wrote:

The word "Gaeilge" is as inappropriate in that sentence as either "français" or "Deutsch" would have been. Refer to another poster as an "inadequate" again and you'll be taking a month's holiday from here.

Rubbish as regards to the first point.



My apologies as regards to the second. Referring to irish in inverted commas really sticks in my craw.

Victor

Jackie laughlin wrote:

You are right but if the language requirement were waived for all appointments, the facility to conduct business in Irish would quickly be lost.

I think the requirement to be fluent in another language is important. In practice one is much more likely to come across a foreign person who doesn't have good english than and Irish speaker who doesn't have good English.

Jackie laughlin wrote:

Discrimination isn't always a bad thing. Everytime a job ad is written, it is done in order to discriminate; it seeks to exclude those who don't have the required skill or the required education, or those too young or too old etc. etc.

I'm not sure if that is an accurate discription of discrimination (it is a description).

There is a huge difference between and objective test (required skill, education, experience) and an arbitary one.

oscarBravo

/Andy\ wrote:

Rubbish as regards to the first point.

feel free to point out any factual inaccuracy contained therein.

/Andy\ wrote:

My apologies as regards to the second.

accepted.




apologies for the lack of capitalisation - both my shift keys and my caps lock key just stopped working for no obvious reason.

Jackie laughlin

Victor,
Apoloies but I don't get your point about people having poor English.

I didn't offer a definition of discrimination. The point I was making is that discrimination is not always bad. It has become a "negative" word and yet a descriminating person would traditionally have taken the term as a compliment.

Asking that Irish civil servants be able to conduct a basic conversation in Irish couldn't be described as an arbitrary barrier to employment. Moreover, I repeat: it's not a big deal to ask someone to learn some Irish. It's not as if they were being asked to undertake some difficult course of study and gain, say, a degree!

Hotblack Desiato

I'm really sick of all these Irish language lobbyists who think that the public service and taxpayer should both bend over to their whims. What you are proposing will cost a lot of money, interfere with appointment/promotion on merit, and produce zero real benefit in customer service.

If you want to make civil servants learn languages, make it French, Chinese, Polish or any of several others they'd be more likely to use in their job than Irish.

It's ridiculous to base recruitment decisions for jobs on skills which are not used in that job.

Jackie laughlin

No Ninja,
I'm not proposing language courses for public servants. As I say, it's not a big deal. Learning enough Irish is up to the applicant and is easy.

I've never had a job that required all of the skills demanded or used all of the skills that I had.

An inability to speak Irish is not merit. We're talking about run-of-the-mill civil servants here, so you can stop this nonsense about THE best person for the job. In the vast, vast majority of appointments, once the unqualified and the nutters are eliminated, almost all of the remainder would be suitable for the job.

You can be a customer, if you want. I'll hold on to my citizenship.

Venom

So your saying that language courses for public servants such as Chinese or Polish (the biggst group of non nationals) is pointless as its not needed in their job but they need to speak Irish which is pointless in this day and age to do their job properly?

Its also a big deal telling people (not asking) that they require a pointless skill for a job position that limits the amount of quaity staff the Civil Service could have if they droped this stupid requirement.

Jackie laughlin

My Irish isn't the best but if I were serious about getting a job, a requirement for which is the ability to speak Irish, I assure you I could make myself proficient damn quickly. Similarly, were I to seek a job in, say, Wales, I would have little difficulty learning Welsh. Learning a language is no big deal!

Now, apart from the fact that I have a right as a citizen of Ireland to conduct my business in Irish - a right, which because my Irish is very poor, I seldom exercise - it is fitting that an Irish civil servant be able to speak Irish.

The skills pool is certainly not so small in this country that the requirement to speak Irish be dropped in order to get competent routine public servants.

Incidentally, are you opposed to other aspects of Irish culture or just the Irish language?

Voipjunkie

Venom wrote:

So your saying that language courses for public servants such as Chinese or Polish (the biggst group of non nationals) is pointless as its not needed in their job but they need to speak Irish which is pointless in this day and age to do their job properly?

Its also a big deal telling people (not asking) that they require a pointless skill for a job position that limits the amount of quaity staff the Civil Service could have if they droped this stupid requirement.

Why is it "pointless" to be able to communicate in Irish. People who can communicate in Irish have a constitutional right to be able to conduct their business with the state apparatus in the first language of this state. How could it possibly be a pointless skill for a civil servant to be able to facilitate that right .

Chinese ,Polish ,or any other language would be an advantage to certain civil servants in certain positions and it would be no harm for some civil servants to be encouraged to learn those languages as well but the state is not constitutionally obliged to be able to provide services in those languages so it is not the same as Irish