Sinn Fein and plum jobs for 'Irish' speakers

Voipjunkie

Voipjunkie wrote:

Why is it "pointless" to be able to communicate in Irish. People who can communicate in Irish have a constitutional right to be able to conduct their business with the state apparatus in the first language of this state. How could it possibly be a pointless skill for a civil servant to be able to facilitate that right .

venom probably thinks that constitutional right is pointless.An awfull lot of people would agree.
I love Irish,I love voicing it as a language,the diction of it,the way it phrases things and loads more about it.
That said,I see an unnecessary and costly ineffeciency in having a duplicate infrastructure for it in that no one, absolutely no one that can speak Irish lacks a fluency in English.In my opinion it shouldnt be necessary for that extra infrastructure to keep the language alive.
The language should be for want of a better way of putting it...sexy enough on it's own to stand on it's own two feet and promoted correspondingly.

Voipjunkie

Tristrame wrote:

venom probably thinks that constitutional right is pointless.An awfull lot of people would agree.
I love Irish,I love voicing it as a language,the diction of it,the way it phrases things and loads more about it.
That said,I see an unnecessary and costly ineffeciency in having a duplicate infrastructure for it in that no one, absolutely no one that can speak Irish lacks a fluency in English.In my opinion it shouldnt be necessary for that extra infrastructure to keep the language alive.
The language should be for want of a better way of putting it...sexy enough on it's own to stand on it's own two feet and promoted correspondingly.

Unfortunately the likelyhood is that without protection including constitutional protection then the whole everyone can speak english anyway argument would kill off Irish pretty quickly.

And on the issue of lack of fluency in english I personally know a lot of people who could manage in English if forced but are far more comfortable in Irish and have far greater vocabulary and fluency in the language they grew up speaking rather than english.
My own personal opinion is that this is Ireland and people who naturally speak Irish should never be forced to conduct their official business with the Irish state in another language and unfortunately the history of this state is that unless you have a cast iron right to it then you wont get it no matter how sexy it may or may not be.
Whilst those you do not speak Irish may not see the point in the added expense of supporting the language as it is a minority that argument could be added to everything from disability rights to anti discrimination laws.

Fratton Fred

Tristrame wrote:

venom probably thinks that constitutional right is pointless.An awfull lot of people would agree.
I love Irish,I love voicing it as a language,the diction of it,the way it phrases things and loads more about it.
That said,I see an unnecessary and costly ineffeciency in having a duplicate infrastructure for it in that no one, absolutely no one that can speak Irish lacks a fluency in English.In my opinion it shouldnt be necessary for that extra infrastructure to keep the language alive.
The language should be for want of a better way of putting it...sexy enough on it's own to stand on it's own two feet and promoted correspondingly.

very good point. I've often wondered why (and I have no facts to back this up, only personal observations) there is a higher proportion of Welsh people fluent in Welsh than there are Irish people in Irish. Both languages as far as i am aware were put under the same restictions by the British, but Welsh seemed to faired better.

i've often associated the speaking of Irish with Nationalism, for no particular reason other than Sinn Feins obsession with it, could it be that connection puts people off?

I speak no Irish at all and have difficulty understanding the sounds that combinations of letters make because it is a language I have no experience in, but it does intrigue me.

Voipjunkie

Voipjunkie wrote:

And on the issue of lack of fluency in english I personally know a lot of people who could manage in English if forced but are far more comfortable in Irish and have far greater vocabulary and fluency in the language they grew up speaking rather than english.

Almost as rare as hens teeth though and hardly an economic case I think for a whole separate infrastructure around it..

My own personal opinion is that this is Ireland and people who naturally speak Irish should never be forced to conduct their official business with the Irish state in another language

Oh I think it's a pointless duplicated waste of resources.Even I'd love to be speaking Irish more but no not at the expense of a bloated unnecessary extra infrastructure.

unfortunately the history of this state is that unless you have a cast iron right to it then you wont get it no matter how sexy it may or may not be.

Yes but you are faced with a popular revolt[read abandonment of the language and resentment by the masses] against those methods of enforced life support.

Whilst those you do not speak Irish may not see the point in the added expense of supporting the language as it is a minority that argument could be added to everything from disability rights to anti discrimination laws.

Thats hardly a valid example.
A right to Dual linguistics via a deliberate and expensive extra infrastructure in a climate where most of the nation is happily speaking only one language is hardly comparable to legally enforcing quality of life issues such as in the case of disability etc.
Such a comparison is preposterous in my opinion.

Languages live better I think, when a love of them is promoted rather than giving them an air of authority and compulsion.

tallus

Fratton Fred wrote:

i've often associated the speaking of Irish with Nationalism, for no particular reason other than Sinn Feins obsession with it, could it be that connection puts people off?

It has absolutely nothing to do with sinn fein. People grow up speaking english and it's the primary language used in our schools and at home. I think you give the shinners more credit than they deserve tbh.

Hagar

The term "shinners" seems to be primarily a derogotary term much like "****" and is used with as much disdain.
It is used by some people on this forum to run down all forms of Nationalism, Republicanism or indeed anything vaguely Irish.
Why is it allowed? Is it not abusive?

Fratton Fred

Hagar wrote:

The term "shinners" seems to be primarily a derogotary term much like "****" and is used with as much disdain.
It is used by some people on this forum to run down all forms of Nationalism, Republicanism or indeed anything vaguely Irish.
Why is it allowed? Is it not abusive?

I think that may be a bit harsh. It may be a derogatory term associated with obsessive republicans/nationalists, Sinn Fein supporters or not, but to say it is derogatory to all things Irish is a bit OTT.

Hotblack Desiato

Jackie laughlin wrote:

My Irish isn't the best but if I were serious about getting a job, a requirement for which is the ability to speak Irish, I assure you I could make myself proficient damn quickly.

Then you pass the test, never need to use it and gradually lose it.
In other words it achieves nothing other than an exam pass.
It's not like it's not been tried already, Irish was a requirement until the 70s but it was dropped because compulsory Irish was a failure.

Learning a language is no big deal!

Not if you actually get to use it regularly, it isn't.

Now, apart from the fact that I have a right as a citizen of Ireland to conduct my business in Irish

I don't dispute that. In practice, there is always someone available to deal with the very few calls/letters in Irish.

- a right, which because my Irish is very poor, I seldom exercise - it is fitting that an Irish civil servant be able to speak Irish.

:rolleyes: Do as I say...?

The skills pool is certainly not so small in this country that the requirement to speak Irish be dropped in order to get competent routine public servants.

Ah, you share the government's view that public servants are all little interchangeable pegs who can be slotted into any hole.
You also share their view that recruitment/promotion should not primarily be on merit (you say Irish, they say willingness to move outside of Dublin.)

Incidentally, are you opposed to other aspects of Irish culture or just the Irish language?

I'm not opposed to the Irish language in any way. I am strongly opposed to COMPULSION and TOKENISM which is all that these proposals which crop up every few years are.

kmick

Let em have the Civil Service jobs. Anyone who thinks working in the civil service generally is 'plum' is mistaken. I have worked there and it is no picnic for all sorts of reasons. Imagine working for Aengus O Snodaigh - I dont personally have anything against the man but he can barely speak properly. He seems like he is so indignant and bursting every time he can barely express himself.

Zambia

The northern Goverment operates two helplines

1 in Irish and one in "Ulster Scots"(desereves the "" entirely). In the the last two years the Irish one has had 3 calls. The Ulster Scots one has never been called. Seems The republic could operate a simialar vein of thought.

While seeing the point in an Irish test it simply is alienating the vast amount of new arrivals the republic has.

I submit the only way to alievate this is actually have a referendum on the decision
"Should the Irish language be the nations first language or engilsh"

Then once implemented live with it and impose it on the foreigners that want a Civil service job. If you want a civil service job in the UK Engilsh is a requirement.

themole

Zambia232 wrote:

While seeing the point in an Irish test it simply is alienating the vast amount of new arrivals the republic has.

Preventing them from getting a civil service job possibly, but thats hardly what i would call alienation. This is not England. Just like France should stay French we should try to stay Irish.

The way i see it is that we have two official languages. This means the government is obliged to conduct business in both Irish and English. In essense this means there is no difference between expecting the Irish govnt to be able to conduct business in Irish and expecting the French government to conduct business in French.

So, while Irish is still an official language there should be no discussion. For that reason I don't agree with the removal of the Irish requirment for Gardai.

If the question at had is whether or not Irish should be an official language thats a different debate. I would vote to keep it.

Zambia

themole wrote:

The way i see it is that we have two official languages. This means the government is obliged to conduct business in both Irish and English. In essense this means there is no difference between expecting the Irish gov to be able to conduct business in Irish and expecting the French government to conduct business in French.

So, while Irish is still an official language there should be no discussion. For that reason I don't agree with the removal of the Irish requirment for Gardai.

If the question at had is whether or not Irish should be an official language thats a different debate. I would vote to keep it.

True Alienation is a tad severe a wording.

As long as Irish is the official 1st language I would also agree on the Gardai piont.

But in reality the Irish goverment conducts 95%-99% of its business in english if not %100. Either Irish should be moved to the fore front and pushed or cut loose from the current status of being dragged along.

There is an Irish forum on boards with little or no Irish language Present in the last year. http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=31


I would vote to loose it but then again I never learnt it. If the horses legs are broken its not going to run again despite how much you love it.

Voipjunkie

Tristrame wrote:

Almost as rare as hens teeth though and hardly an economic case I think for a whole separate infrastructure around it..

Might be a shock to you but everything can not just be measured on an economic case I know it is a cliche but it is a country we live in not an economy

Tristrame wrote:

Oh I think it's a pointless duplicated waste of resources.Even I'd love to be speaking Irish more but no not at the expense of a bloated unnecessary extra infrastructure.Yes but you are faced with a popular revolt[read abandonment of the language and resentment by the masses] against those methods of enforced life support.

No I don't think there is any mass revolt if anything the blossoming of the gael scoileanna all over the country proves that more and more people are embracing the language than ever before.

Tristrame wrote:

Thats hardly a valid example.
A right to Dual linguistics via a deliberate and expensive extra infrastructure in a climate where most of the nation is happily speaking only one language is hardly comparable to legally enforcing quality of life issues such as in the case of disability etc.
Such a comparison is preposterous in my opinion.

Being able to communicate in your native tongue in your own country is a quality of life issue whilst it may not affect the majority of people that is not a reason to neglect those it does affect and that is as true for disability rights as it is for language rights.

Tristrame wrote:

Languages live better I think, when a love of them is promoted rather than giving them an air of authority and compulsion.

In an ideal world maybe but if the Irish government was not obliged to provide services in Irish then they would not exist end of story
The other thing to remember is that people are not being forced to use the Irish services they are provided for those that need/want them in order to do that it is fairly obvious that you are going to need employees with some knowledge of the Irish language you can call that compulsion but it is no more compulsion than insisting that they have some level of knowledge of the english language.

/Andy\

Jackie laughlin wrote:

My Irish isn't the best but if I were serious about getting a job, a requirement for which is the ability to speak Irish, I assure you I could make myself proficient damn quickly. Similarly, were I to seek a job in, say, Wales, I would have little difficulty learning Welsh. Learning a language is no big deal!

Now, apart from the fact that I have a right as a citizen of Ireland to conduct my business in Irish - a right, which because my Irish is very poor, I seldom exercise - it is fitting that an Irish civil servant be able to speak Irish.

The skills pool is certainly not so small in this country that the requirement to speak Irish be dropped in order to get competent routine public servants.

Incidentally, are you opposed to other aspects of Irish culture or just the Irish language?

Jackie Laughlin you are my new hero

Hotblack Desiato

Zambia232 wrote:

While seeing the point in an Irish test it simply is alienating the vast amount of new arrivals the republic has.

Actually it's mostly the people like me who had 13 years of daily Irish forced on them (by teachers who didn't want to have to teach it, either, but were likewise compelled) who have a problem with it, I don't think the new arrivals would mind that much...
Compulsion has done a great deal of damage to the Irish language, why bring in yet more compulsion?
What benefits do you think it will bring, and how? It's never worked so far.

If you want a civil service job in the UK Engilsh is a requirement.

And a very reasonable requirement that is too.
However it's far from reasonable to require that 100% of your staff be fluent in a language used by <1% of customers, especially when all of them can speak English anyway.

I'm sure there are several minority languages in the UK which are the primary language of a decent proportion of customers, but learning Urdu or the like isn't a requirement for a UK civil service job... even though a good number of these people will have very poor or no English and have real difficulty accessing services through English.

Hotblack Desiato

Voipjunkie wrote:

No I don't think there is any mass revolt if anything the blossoming of the gael scoileanna all over the country proves that more and more people are embracing the language than ever before.

I'm not sure that by doing that they're embracing the language so much as running away from the Catholic Church.
If we had widespread availability of secular education in English I doubt the gaelscoileanna movement would be as successful as it is.

Being able to communicate in your native tongue in your own country is a quality of life issue

I can, and do, every day - in fact I'm doing it right now.
The native tongue of myself and 90+% of Irish people is English.
This sort of thing (and statements like "our national language" when we have two) does more to alienate non-Irish speakers than anything else.

In an ideal world maybe but if the Irish government was not obliged to provide services in Irish then they would not exist end of story

They can, and do, provide these services without making Irish compulsory.
The demand for services in Irish is so small that it can be and is being met without compulsion.

you can call that compulsion but it is no more compulsion than insisting that they have some level of knowledge of the english language.

You are missing the point and I have to wonder why, it's been pointed out so many times now by different posters.
English is required for 100% of public sector jobs.
Irish for less than 1%, probably.
Why make the other 99% learn a language they will never use in their work?

Victor

Jackie laughlin wrote:

Victor, Apoloies but I don't get your point about people having poor English.

Pavel and Magda arrived in Ireland two months ago and are working in west Galway Gaeltacht. Driving home, Pavel crashes their car into another car because he didn't understand the Irish-only, non-standard warning sign. Liam, the other driver is a local.

Who is likely to have a better grasp of English when the Garda shows up?

Hagar wrote:

The term "shinners" seems to be primarily a derogotary term much like "****" and is used with as much disdain. It is used by some people on this forum to run down all forms of Nationalism, Republicanism or indeed anything vaguely Irish. Why is it allowed? Is it not abusive?

Shinner is a mildly derogatory term, yes. Less offensive than "Chuckies" (from "Tíocfaidh") which tends to offend Sinn Féin members no end. Of course, they start it by calling Worker's Party members "Stickies".

Hagar

Victor wrote:

Pavel and Magda arrived in Ireland two months ago and are working in west Galway Gaeltacht. Driving home, Pavel crashes their car into another car because he didn't understand the Irish-only, non-standard warning sign. Liam, the other driver is a local.

Who is likely to have a better grasp of English when the Garda shows up?

Shinner is a mildly derogatory term, yes. Less offensive than "Chuckies" (from "Tíocfaidh") which tends to offend Sinn Féin members no end. Of course, they start it by calling Worker's Party members "Stickies".

It is Pavel's reponsibility to understand the signage used. Much the same as it is mine to understand the French signage and peculiarities of the Code du Route where I live. I hope Pavel has valid insurance, but I wouldn't bet my money on it.

Will the Garda be speaking English in the Gaeltacht? Why do you assume he will?

The term "stickies" arose from the fact that the Easter Lilies that they sold were sticky backed self adhesive as opposed to the pinned version sold by their counterparts. Because you claim, how you know this is beyond me, that SF use the term "stickies" for the above reason you are saying it's ok to use a derogotary term to describe them. Even Ian Paisley had the good grace to use their proper name allbeit with the /"IRA" suffix.

Victor

Hagar wrote:

Because you claim, how you know this is beyond me, that SF use the term "stickies" for the above reason you are saying it's ok to use a derogotary term to describe them.

I never said it was OK, but I did hint at the hypocrisy and schadenfreude.

Voipjunkie

Victor wrote:

Pavel and Magda arrived in Ireland two months ago and are working in west Galway Gaeltacht. Driving home, Pavel crashes their car into another car because he didn't understand the Irish-only, non-standard warning sign. Liam, the other driver is a local.

Who is likely to have a better grasp of English when the Garda shows up?

Well if pavel and magda cannot understand a stop sign because it says stad but is the exact same colour shape and size as any other stop sign it would be their basic level of intelligence that would concern me not their grasp of any particular language.

FTA69

Of course, they start it by calling Worker's Party members "Stickies".

Yeah but the Sticks are w*nkers so they don't really matter.

Voipjunkie

Victor wrote:

Shinner is a mildly derogatory term, yes. Less offensive than "Chuckies" (from "Tíocfaidh") which tends to offend Sinn Féin members no end. Of course, they start it by calling Worker's Party members "Stickies".

No shinners call themselves shinners and chuckies never seen any of them to be offended by it no more than provie or provo
And the alternative to stickie at the time was pinnie or pinhead chuckie came much later from memory it was Bobby Sands who coined the expression "Tíocfaidh ar La"

Shinner or Chuckie is only derogatry when it is used to dismiss anyone with a nationalist outlook or non unionist outlook much the same way as the term Fenian is used as a term of abuse but republicans have no problem identifying themselves as Fenians.

So basically if you call someone who is in Sinn Fein a Shinner then it is not abuse but if you used it to describe anyone who was in the GAA or the SDLP or who supported a United Ireland or in this case the Irish language then quite clearly the person using it is attempting to insult.

Voipjunkie

Voipjunkie wrote:

Might be a shock to you but everything can not just be measured on an economic case I know it is a cliche but it is a country we live in not an economy

yeah but spending millions to accomadate a few people who'd rather speak Irish when they are fluent in English seems superflous,pointless and a waste in the context of myriads of things that should be more important.

No I don't think there is any mass revolt if anything the blossoming of the gael scoileanna all over the country proves that more and more people are embracing the language than ever before.

Or it's a combination of yuppie ism and people who see an opportunity to send their kids to smaller more intimate classes.
Mind you Gaelscoileanna are an example of how to promote Irish as a loved language.
They should have been promoted years ago instead of the dreary way the language has been taught up to now,

Being able to communicate in your native tongue in your own country is a quality of life issue whilst it may not affect the majority of people that is not a reason to neglect those it does affect and that is as true for disability rights as it is for language rights.

Bull to be honest but both of us are entitled to an opinion on that.Theres no descrimination comparison between the ability of someone who can speak and prefers to speak Irish from doing any job compared to disability discrimination.I won't be stopped getting into a non disabled friendly taxi because I am speaking Irish for example.
I shouldnt have to be posting this...

In an ideal world maybe but if the Irish government was not obliged to provide services in Irish then they would not exist end of story
The other thing to remember is that people are not being forced to use the Irish services they are provided for those that need/want them in order to do that it is fairly obvious that you are going to need employees with some knowledge of the Irish language you can call that compulsion but it is no more compulsion than insisting that they have some level of knowledge of the english language.

LoL are you being serious? you are comparing providing an extra expensive infrastructure for a hardly used language with the provision of the one everybody can use including the dual linguists..as if they should both be the same in extent.
I don't think we should be devoid of some provision for the Irish language but going OTT about it is a waste of money in my opinion.

A Dub in Glasgo

Tristrame wrote:

Mind you Gaelscoileanna are an example of how to promote Irish as a loved language.
They should have been promoted years ago

I grew up in Dublin and I remember the local Gaelscoil opened soon after I finished my Inter Cert in 1985. It was packed and oversubscribed, hardly a place where Yuppieism took hold.

Zambia

ninja900 wrote:

And a very reasonable requirement that is too.
However it's far from reasonable to require that 100% of your staff be fluent in a language used by <1% of customers, especially when all of them can speak English anyway.
.

I see all your pionts however if the laqw states its the first language then thats what it states.

Like I said the constitution is what has to be changed.

Voipjunkie

Tristrame wrote:

yeah but spending millions to accomadate a few people who'd rather speak Irish when they are fluent in English seems superflous,pointless and a waste in the context of myriads of things that should be more important.

The same could be said of any number of things for example the irish government spend millions on supporting the theatre and it is used by very very few Irish people.
The same with museums, art galleries,parks, transport schemes etc etc millions spent to accomodate a few people.

At the end of the day it in my opinion at least would be ridicolous to force people to use English when their first choice is Irish

Tristrame wrote:

Or it's a combination of yuppie ism and people who see an opportunity to send their kids to smaller more intimate classes.
Mind you Gaelscoileanna are an example of how to promote Irish as a loved language.

Well that might be how the Gaelscoileanna are in your area where I am they are packed and the class sizes are as big as the standard schools.
Of course if you look at the support for the gaelscoileanna from the Government you see the trouble the Irish language would be in if the Government was allowed to neglect it more than they already do. It is a disgrace that people who want to educate their children in Irish are turned away every year due to a lack of space and resources and reflects the governments real commitment to the language.

Tristrame wrote:

Bull to be honest but both of us are entitled to an opinion on that.Theres no descrimination comparison between the ability of someone who can speak and prefers to speak Irish from doing any job compared to disability discrimination.I won't be stopped getting into a non disabled friendly taxi because I am speaking Irish for example.
I shouldnt have to be posting this...

You are missing the point the issue is not whether you can use a taxi or not it is about doing the right thing providing disabled access is not about economics it is about providing a fair society in which people can all be part of. The same with providing services in Irish it is not about the economics or how many people use them it is about an inclusive society that values its own language even though we cannot all speak it. And it is about promoting the language how can we convince people to learn the language and at the same time eradicate it from public life.

Tristrame wrote:

LoL are you being serious? you are comparing providing an extra expensive infrastructure for a hardly used language with the provision of the one everybody can use including the dual linguists..as if they should both be the same in extent.
I don't think we should be devoid of some provision for the Irish language but going OTT about it is a waste of money in my opinion.

What is OTT where would you draw the line ?

Voipjunkie

Zambia232 wrote:

I see all your pionts however if the laqw states its the first language then thats what it states.

Like I said the constitution is what has to be changed.

Well I cannot see that happening the government has been clapping themselves on the back for getting Irish recognised as an official language in the EU removing it as an official language of the Irish state would be a little daft

Zambia

Voipjunkie wrote:

Well I cannot see that happening the government has been clapping themselves on the back for getting Irish recognised as an official language in the EU removing it as an official language of the Irish state would be a little daft

True but I never said the goverment was not being a tad daft in its entire approach to this subject.

Like I said it should be put to the people to decide how far this agenda is pushed

* Do people want to pay extra taxes to support dual language when no -one really uses one
* Do people want there kids to learn Irish in school when they could learn another more useful one
* What is the real advantages of keeping Irish as a language other than the sentiment

Irish as a voluntary language will survive if the interest in it some people have claimed it attracts here continues.

Voipjunkie

Voipjunkie wrote:

The same could be said of any number of things for example the irish government spend millions on supporting the theatre and it is used by very very few Irish people.
The same with museums, art galleries,parks, transport schemes etc etc millions spent to accomodate a few people.

As do most if not all governments.
Again you are using a ridiculous example.
They don't insist that the guy inside the window at the Revenue commisioners office must have a knowledge of shakespeare when the cost of that is superflous to the business getting done.

Well that might be how the Gaelscoileanna are in your area where I am they are packed and the class sizes are as big as the standard schools.
Of course if you look at the support for the gaelscoileanna from the Government you see the trouble the Irish language would be in if the Government was allowed to neglect it more than they already do. It is a disgrace that people who want to educate their children in Irish are turned away every year due to a lack of space and resources and reflects the governments real commitment to the language.

Well as I said,I think it's great to support Gael Scoileanna.
I do unfortunately think though from my experience of the clientelle of them locally-thats it's mostly the "posh" kids that are going to them and the "yaw yaw" "Moy Kid goes to the Gael Scoil" approach.
They are not popular long enough yet I think to properly guage whether they will work in terms of promoting the speaking of the language.We shall see when the kids that are in them today are after graduating college and out working.
I suspect Irish will be dropped like a stone for most of them unfortunately.

You are missing the point the issue is not whether you can use a taxi or not it is about doing the right thing providing disabled access is not about economics it is about providing a fair society in which people can all be part of. The same with providing services in Irish it is not about the economics or how many people use them it is about an inclusive society that values its own language even though we cannot all speak it.

Sorry but laudable as that thought is-it's not very practical politically.
You try to convince the public that their new cancer unit is being postponed because the money is being spent instead on recruiting 3 or 400 people to deal exclusively in Irish speakers interactions with government departments.
See how you get on.

And it is about promoting the language how can we convince people to learn the language and at the same time eradicate it from public life.

Did I say we should eradicate it from public life ? One person should be enough in a department to deal with the very few that might bother doing their official business via Irish.

What is OTT where would you draw the line ?

One dedicated person per department would be fine but who is open to doing business in English aswell.
Simple really.

Fratton Fred

Voipjunkie wrote:

Well I cannot see that happening the government has been clapping themselves on the back for getting Irish recognised as an official language in the EU removing it as an official language of the Irish state would be a little daft

that really was a waste of money, but then the EU love wasting money so where's the harm:rolleyes:

Am I right in thinking that at a Gaelscoileanna, all the exams are in Irish, so the kids will automatically get better grades than kids who take their exams in English?

Maybe that could be a reason for their popularity?