Sinn Fein and plum jobs for 'Irish' speakers

Hotblack Desiato

Zambia232 wrote:

I see all your pionts however if the laqw states its the first language then thats what it states.
Like I said the constitution is what has to be changed.

???
First language is only really relevant when it comes to interpreting the constitution (in case there is a conflict between the English and Irish versions, there has to be a way of resolving the deadlock.)

The government does provide public services through Irish for the very few who request them and are fluent enough to actually transact them in Irish (a good number of them are chancers though hoping to get one over on the system, or thinking they'll have to pay less if they do their tax return in pidgin Irish :rolleyes: )

No need to amend anything.

Now, whether we provide adequate public services to those who do not speak either English or Irish fluently is a very good question, particularly in the area of health and justice.
That's a very real problem which could be addressed for far less money and effort than packing all public servants off to Gaeltacht Gulags for a few weeks with a P45 hanging over them

A Dub in Glasgo

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

I grew up in Dublin and I remember the local Gaelscoil opened soon after I finished my Inter Cert in 1985. It was packed and oversubscribed, hardly a place where Yuppieism took hold.

They were almost as rare as hens teeth in 1985.
Things are a bit different now as you probably know anyway.

Zambia

wiki wrote:

Republic of Ireland

Irish (Gaeilge), a Celtic language, is recognized as the primary constitutional language of Ireland; notwithstanding that English is the de facto language of the nation. Irish is spoken by about 1% of its population as a first language in restricted geographical locations. However, according to the 2002 Census of Population, 42% of the population of Ireland have the ability to speak Irish. The Irish government is committed to the development of a bilingual society, where as many people as possible can use Irish and English with equal ease and facility

1% of the population speak/use the Primary Language of the country

I also doubt the 42% if truly tested

At the figure of 1% we would have a better chance of introducing French/Spainish which would be an advantage in worldwide commerce.

However I digress Ninja you are correct in stating the service could operate by simply having an Irish speaking option in all venues.

I just really get the hump with the law stating things like, Irish is the official language when bugger all is actually performed via Irish.

Just like I get the hump with Ulster Scots up here when its in essence a language for people who cant basically be bothered to write engilsh

Ulster Scots = The wie o’ waarkin oot yer rates bein’ uised aa the mannit bes biggit oan quhat yer hoose wus worth 30 yeirs sine.

Engilsh = The way of working out your house rates being used at present is based on what your house is worth 30 years ago

Voipjunkie

Tristrame wrote:

Did I say we should eradicate it from public life ? One person should be enough in a department to deal with the very few that might bother doing their official business via Irish.
One dedicated person per department would be fine but who is open to doing business in English aswell.
Simple really.

As long as their is adequate support for the Irish language that in my view is the most important thing.
Would you think that those fluent in Irish should be awarded more points in the interview or promotion stages to ensure that a suitable number are available to meet the requirement or possibly an extra payment for those fluent in Irish.

As opposed to insisting everyone has a basic level of Irish reward those that have fluency to ensure services can be provided in Irish when needed.

Steerpike

Tristrame wrote:

Languages live better I think, when a love of them is promoted rather than giving them an air of authority and compulsion.

This is the essential point. It's interesting that in last year's leaving, more people sat honours French than sat honour Gaeilge (Irish Times). There goes the argument for compulsion - which is the cause of much resentment, in my view. If its proponents are convinced of the deep love for the language, and kids are flocking to the Gaelic schools, why the strong-arm tactics?


Sadly, it seems that the 'Irish' Language Lobby (I use inverted commas BTW, because - despite its elevated status in the Constitution - English is the actual spoken language of the Irish) see all of the State sector as a tool for the promotion of Gaeilge, and not as a provider of public services.

Remember, the vast majority of Irish people don't speak 'Irish', and you could make an educated guess that, as near as matters, 100% foreign nationals (1 in 10 of the workforce) here don't speak it. I'm native Irish - I don't speak it (but I do speak German. Compulsion?). Yet these people - taxpayers all - are effectively excluded (or put at a disadvantage) when it comes to civil service employment. I should point out, I'm not hankering after a job there - I'm happy with my work situation. But it's something that "sticks in my craw" nonetheless.

2002 CSO figures put people who speak Gaeilge daily at 1.6 million. But that figure includes 78% who are of school-going age, in an educational system where it is compulsory!


It is still possible to provide for those who wish to speak 'as Gaeilge' when interacting with civil servants, without compelling all potential employees to speak it. It would be interesting to see what percentage of punters converse 'as Gaeilge' when dealing with State departments, and tailor the number of fluent speakers in such jobs accordingly.

Hotblack Desiato

Just to clarify a few points:

Zambia232 wrote:

1% of the population speak/use the Primary Language of the country

Wikipedia (which is a doubtful reference source at best) doesn't say it's the "primary language of the country" - it says Irish is the primary constitutional language of the country, which is correct.

Unless you're discussing constitutional law, that's irrelevant.

I just really get the hump with the law stating things like, Irish is the official language when bugger all is actually performed via Irish.

We have two official languages.

I also doubt the 42% if truly tested

That figure is useless, people tick "can speak Irish" out of embarrasment, pride or misguided nationalism when in reality their ability to participate in conversation is all but non-existent.

However I digress Ninja you are correct in stating the service could operate by simply having an Irish speaking option in all venues.

It already does.

Voipjunkie wrote:

Would you think that those fluent in Irish should be awarded more points in the interview or promotion stages to ensure that a suitable number are available to meet the requirement or possibly an extra payment for those fluent in Irish.

I'm sure this was already mentioned on the thread. Those who take a voluntary and fairly basic Irish test can gain between 3 and 6% bonus marks. There is a much tougher mandatory Irish test for certain Gaeltacht-related jobs but these are small in number.
Incidentally the unions for some years have been looking to have the bonus marks for Irish removed for jobs where it is not specifically required.

Zambia

ninja900 wrote:

Wikipedia (which is a doubtful reference source at best) doesn't say it's the "primary language of the country" - it says Irish is the primary constitutional language of the country, which is correct.

Unless you're discussing constitutional law, that's irrelevant.


I think we are splitting hairs here

ninja900 wrote:

We have two official languages.

Its like having two cars one being your pride and joy that you for as much as you try you cant fix so it stays in the drive yet still pay to tax & insure.

ninja900 wrote:

That figure is useless, people tick "can speak Irish" out of embarrasment, pride or misguided nationalism when in reality their ability to participate in conversation is all but non-existent.

I agree

Jackie laughlin

My Irish was taught to me by a bunch of paedophile, pseudo-republican, catholic thugs, but then so was my English, maths and everything else. It would not be logical for me to hate Irish alone because of "compulsion".

The cost of supporting Irish must be tiny, a small part of the money spent on supporting Irish culture generally.

While I recognise fully that the bulk of Irish expression is in my native tongue, English, the Irish language is a small but important part of Irish culture.

I say again, this is no big deal. Anyone of average ability can quickly become competent in Irish and therefore anyone could apply for very ordinary civil service jobs; we're not recruiting rocket scientists here!

Gaelscoileanna are popular for four main reasons: Irish has become more popular (Indeed, Irishness generally has become more popular); the schools are a partial refuge from Catholicism; the teaching is effective because the teachers tend to be highly motivated; behaviour within the school tends to be better because of the kids' family backgrounds (sad but true).

Language policy under Britain had little or nothing to do with the decline in Irsh spreaking. The big drop came after the famine when speakers associated backwardness with Irish and abandoned it. The language was then "cared for" by the Anglo-Irish aristocracy until the Gaelic revival in the late 19th century.

It should be impossible to say something bad enough about SF/IRA. I don't think I'm alone in being outraged by "tiocfaidh ár lá" plus decades of murder to conclude in "níor thanaig ár lá" and there's no point in adding "fós" because the game is over as regards a one-state Ireland.

Voipjunkie

Jackie laughlin wrote:

Language policy under Britain had little or nothing to do with the decline in Irsh spreaking. The big drop came after the famine when speakers associated backwardness with Irish and abandoned it. The language was then "cared for" by the Anglo-Irish aristocracy until the Gaelic revival in the late 19th century.
.

A fine piece of historical revisionism.

Ignore the Penal laws the removal of Irish from the ruling class and then brush over the famine.

Irish declined for numerous reasons and it quickened after the famine the reason why it was seen as backwards was that the language of power and influence was English(not by choice)
It was also associated with poverty because most Irish speakers were poor and those that could only speak Irish stayed poor.
And of course after the famine people were raising their children to emigrate and they would need english when they got to the US Australia or the UK.

Jackie laughlin

Voip,
I was trying to be brief as this is not an essential part of the discussion here. I think it unwise to go too far back because it distorts the perspective by entering into a time too different from today. I certainly would never underestimate the effect of the famine.

You drew a wry smile by accusing me of revisionism. I've certainly had to revise my thinking as an adult once I realised that at school I had been subjected to lie piled upon lie. The truth - which is not set in stone - turns out to be very complicated and refreshing.

Voipjunkie

Jackie laughlin wrote:

Voip,
I was trying to be brief as this is not an essential part of the discussion here. I think it unwise to go too far back because it distorts the perspective by entering into a time too different from today. I certainly would never underestimate the effect of the famine.

You drew a wry smile by accusing me of revisionism. I've certainly had to revise my thinking as an adult once I realised that at school I had been subjected to lie piled upon lie. The truth - which is not set in stone - turns out to be very complicated and refreshing.

Fine just for the record I do not believe in holding perpetual grievances for the sake of it hopefully we are moving on from there.
But I do not also believe in abdicating responsibility for the sake of it or because it is more palatable to pretend that it was not that way. Britain was massively responsible for the demise of the Irish language and ignoring or pretending that is not the case is ludicrous.

Jackie laughlin

Voip,
Some years ago I researched the decline of Irish during the 19th and 20th centuries. It seemed that the crunch came after the famine. Now, I can debate the famine and its causes forever but it was not caused by a language policy and its causes were complex. Britain as the governing authority was blind to everything other than the market economic orthodoxy of the time and failed miserably to invervene effectively. I was very surprised to discover the role of Anglo Irish scholars in the late 19th century. Jumping forward to the new Irish state, it proved anything but effective in promoting/saving the language.

I find the level of antagonism to Irish today very depressing. (The evidence can be found in this thread.) Anecdotally it would seem that Irish is associated with catholicism, republicanism a la SF/IRA and generally an Ireland that these people would rather forget. I can understand the sentiment but I try to argue that the language is not part of that despised notion of Ireland. Curiously the modern antagonism is quite like the feeling towards Irish after the famine: Irish is associated with backwardness.

This is, I think, changing as a confident post catholic, European Irish identity emerges.

nesf

Where did this myth about the Irish test being a deal breaker for getting a job in the Civil Service come from? It's optional and if you're a good fit for the job you're probably going to get it regardless of whether you take it or not.

The presence of the Irish test in the Civil Service interviews isn't going to hold back foreigners from getting jobs in the Civil Service. It's just a bit of populist pandering to the masses. Anyone who's worked in the Civil Service could assure you that it isn't a haven for fluent Irish speakers, most people in it have little to none.

That said, we should have some fluent Irish speakers in areas so people can do formal business with the state through Irish. You don't need to take an idiotic approach to this, you just need enough to cover the Gaeltachts and in large offices for drafting letters/responses/whatever in Irish for it to be reasonable. People who expect all ticket inspectors on trains to be able to speak Irish are idiots in my honest opinion, but we should strive to have enough Irish speakers in the service to be able to facilitate people as much as is pragmatic. Similar to having a single Polish speaking employee at a bank versus having every person in the bank with fluent Polish etc.

Hotblack Desiato

nesf wrote:

The presence of the Irish test in the Civil Service interviews isn't going to hold back foreigners from getting jobs in the Civil Service.

But a lack of a Leaving Cert pass in Irish might be - not sure if it's still an entry requirement?

Fratton Fred

Voipjunkie wrote:

Britain was massively responsible for the demise of the Irish language and ignoring or pretending that is not the case is ludicrous.

No, the English were. Which comes back to my point, it appears that Welsh is more popular in Wales than Irish is in Ireland.

Why, I don't know and a lot of the arguements about Irish being available to those who wish to speak it, could quite easily be applied to Welsh. All UK government web sites are available in Welsh and I believe if you want to talk to a government body, you are able to have a conversation with them in Welsh, but not all civil servants in the UK speak Welsh. So how do they do it?

Rosita

Venom wrote:

Irish being the 1st official language of this state is a farce and completly inaccurate in this day and age.

It's not inaccurate. The constitution states it therefore it is by definition the case.

The fact that the Irish population by and large is too stupid to gets to grips even at a basic level with the language despite a decade and a half being taught it and spends the rest of their lives complaining about it under the guise of "it's stupid and we don't need it" doesn't make its official constitutional status inaccurate.

The official speed limit on certain stretches of road is 30kms per hour. The fact that many drive in excess of this doesn't mean this is suddenly an unofficial speed limit. Same goes for drinking driving limits. I think the constitution sticks to many ideas which are not widely practiced in the - no doubt futile - hope that one day we might become a civilised, cultured, confident and independent-minded nation and not just a shower of limp-wristed Anglophiles who briefly morph into Padraig Pearse when the Irish rugby or soccer team takes the pitch before reverting to the normal narrow-minded gimps who are scared to death of anything that might mark them out as culturally distinct.

Rosita

Steerpike wrote:

It is well-known that the Shinners are notoriously slow learners - but even they should be able to see that the State's policies of making 'Irish' compulsory in schools has not worked, and that excluding people (Irish and foreign) from State employment because they don't share the Shinner enthusiasm for "de language", and reserving plum jobs for 'Irish speakers' is not only wrong - it's counter-productive because of the resentment it builds up.

I will bow to your knowledge of the "Shinners", but I have to laugh at the predictable idea that trying to promote Irish and provide a working environment for it is "counter-productive because of the resentment it builds up". This is not true as the people who harbour this "resentment" are not exactly the type who'll use the language in any circumstances anyway. Also the corollary of the "counter-productive" argument is that the only way to promote Irish properly is to not have it spoken anywhere, and bizarrely the consequent lack of resentment would would cause a great revival in the language. What a pile of crap. I have no problem with people being anti the Irish language, but it is nauseating when they try to dress this sentiment up in some sort of philosophical garb that doesn't reach first base logically.