Who is correct in this roundabout scenario?

kittex

Ok, I am trying to figure this one out. As far as I can see I am in the right, but as I haven't been driving that long, I would appreciate some help.

The scenario is - on a dual carriageway on my route to work, there are 2 roundabouts.
At the first roundabout, I go straight ahead. At the second I turn right.

However, at the first roundabout, it suddenly becomes 3 lanes (left turn, straight and right turn), reverting immediately back to a dual carriageway on the straight ahead.

I take the middle lane to go straight ahead, exiting into the right hand lane of that exit (dual carriageway), as I need to be in the right hand lane to turn right at the near immediately appearing roundabout (2 lanes).

Now this morning, a guy in work says I cut him off, coming off the first roundabout. He was in the right hand lane at the roundabout, trying to get into the right hand lane of the 2nd (straight ahead) exit.

As far as I can figure, he was in the wrong lane, in that he was coming off at the 2nd exit, despite being in the lane for the 3rd exit.

He however appraoched me in the car park and said "No criticisms but you cut me off and you should have been in the right hand lane"

Am I correct?

seamus

You are correct, if and only if there are arrows on the road approaching the roadabout, indicating left only, straight only and right only for the left, middle and right lanes respectively.

In any case, you are supposed to maintain your lane through the roundabout - you shouldn't change lane midway through the junction. Even if the road markings indicate that you were in the right, the fact that you "cut him off" shows that you failed to check your mirror and blindspot before you changed lanes. In the event of a collision, you would be at least partly to blame for failing to yield to traffic in the other lane.

BrianD3

Depends on the road markings. Generally with a 3 lane roundabout on a two lane road you can go straight in 2 of the 3 lanes. The middle lane and either the left or right lane. If the middle lane leads to the LH lane of the subsequent DC and the right hand lane leads to the RH lane of the dual carriageway then it is likely that he was in a correct lane. You were also in a correct lane but when you changed lanes you should have given way to traffic already in that lane i.e. him

BTW if this was at a roundabout at an M50 intersection - they can be awful for road markings. In some cases you can be in the correct, logical lane as you enter the rounabout and then are forced to make a lane change halfway around. Road markings can be all over the place especially with the current roadworks and lane assignments can change from one day to the next.

kittex

seamus wrote:

You are correct, if and only if there are arrows on the road approaching the roadabout, indicating left only, straight only and right only for the left, middle and right lanes respectively.

In any case, you are supposed to maintain your lane through the roundabout - you shouldn't change lane midway through the junction. Even if the road markings indicate that you were in the right, the fact that you "cut him off" shows that you failed to check your mirror and blindspot before you changed lanes. In the event of a collision, you would be at least partly to blame for failing to yield to traffic in the other lane.

How can i yield to traffic, going around the roundabout at the same time as me, but slightly behind me to my right?

The road markings are as outlined, left only, straight only and right only.

The middle lane of the roundabout leads to the Dual carriageway BOTH LANES.
I didn't change lanes on the roundabout. I exited onto the dual carriageway, from the single lane straight ahead lane, are my exit as they are the straight ahead.
I entered onto the right hand lane, as there is no way I could have exited into the left, then changed lanes, to make the next roundabout in time.

The right hand lane only leads to the right exit (single carriageway road)
I was in the middle lane, exiting straight ahead. He was in the right hand lane, trying to exit straight ahead and claimed I blocked him as I exited at the same time he wished to. But as far as I can see, i was in the correct lane. He was on the right hand lane, trying to get into my lane. So how could I have cut him off?

Do you get me now?

PS: not the M50 no!

copacetic

tbh it sounds like you are in the wrong to me, what you are saying above that one lane magically turns into two as you exit the roundabout doesn't make any sense. You can't claim 2 lanes are 'yours' imo. I'm not sure why you asked for opinions if you are just going to argue that you couldn't be in the wrong when people tell you it was bad driving.

You changed lanes in the middle of a roundabout and cut him off, even if the road markings are as you say and he was technically in the wrong it sounds like you still cut him up. There are a lot of junctions like this around Dublin where the markings are terrible and most people drive according to common sense.

What junction is it?

kittex

copacetic wrote:

tbh it sounds like you are in the wrong to me, what you are saying above that one lane magically turns into two as you exit the roundabout doesn't make any sense. You can't claim 2 lanes are 'yours' imo.

You changed lanes in the middle of a roundabout and cut him off, even if the road markings are as you say and he was technically in the wrong it sounds like you still cut him up. There are a lot of junctions like this around Dublin where the markings are terrible and most people drive according to common sense.

Common sense, and the rules of the road, tell me to go in the lane marked right for turning right, left for left and straight ahead for straight ahead.

It doesn't tell me to drive as if turning right, then be pissed because there's someone in my way when I want to 'change my mind' and exit early at the 2nd exit.

The roundabout isn't in Dublin.

I've tried to illustrate it (badly) here.

BrianD3

If the scenario is exactly as you describe then yes he was in the wrong. If the road markings have been properly done then he will have had to cross a broken or continuous white line to go straight on. This means that he's the one changing lanes and as well as disregarding the right turn only arrow.

But had there been a crash it would likely be quite difficult to prove who did what and the exact sequence of events. You'd both probably get 50% of the blame.

kittex

Thanks BrianD3. That was exactly my opinion. Although my passenger saw what happened, and backs me up.

I don't know whether to bring it up with him at all, or just ignore him and continue to drive according to road markings.
What bothered me was that I didn't know it was a work colleague. I just thought it was some idiot doing a daft thing.
But then when he said it in work later that day, I was so embarrassed. It was in front of 2 other work colleagues, my passenger and had me doubting myself - not good at all. He sounded so confident, so sure he was in the right, I just wilted.

I might be a female, and admit I am utterly unable to parallel park (or park very well generally) but I am a careful driver and hate the idea of this guy claiming I did something stupid when it was he who hadn't thought out his manouvere properly.

Padraig Mor

Looks like he was in the wrong (if the diagram is correct).

David Michael

You were in the right. He was in the wrong.

Unless he was indicating and there was room for him to enter your lane ahead f you... and you decided just to motor on. That is ignorant and you would have cut him off. Technically you are still right but it is bad form.

Sometimes when approaching a roundabout you can be in the wrong lane prior to getting on the round about. I stop at the garrage on the Naas road on the way to dublin beside the catapiller place near the Red cow round about. Getting from lane 1 to 3 by the time you reach the red cow can be a pain in the bollix. So a lane swap on the round about is required! One hopes a nice person will let me swap and not cut me up

Pherekydes

David Michael wrote:

You were in the right. He was in the wrong.

Yes. And next time you bump into him in work with a few of HIS colleagues, drop it (un)gently that the right hand lane is for turning right only and is marked so on the road. Tell him to check the road markings next time.

kittex

Will do Slow coach - thanks

Oh and David Michael, nope, he wasn't indicating at all.

WindSock

Yeah, I've come across confusing roundabouts like this before in Dublin. Thanks for the diagram by the way, it helps me visualise it better. It does look like you were in the right.
For the road markings to make sense to me, there should straight arrow on the left lane with another arrow branching to the left, a straight arrow in the middle, and a right arrow on the right. The right lane is usually for people on the third exit.

David Michael

kittex wrote:

Will do Slow coach - thanks

Oh and David Michael, nope, he wasn't indicating at all.

You were well right so.

seamus

The road markings are as outlined, left only, straight only and right only.

Then you're probably in the right or at worst would have some minor blame.

The middle lane of the roundabout leads to the Dual carriageway BOTH LANES.

I can't really picture this from your drawing but some of the shambolic roundabouts in this country, it wouldn't surprise me.

He was on the right hand lane, trying to get into my lane. So how could I have cut him off?

There are hundreds of roundabouts where you can go straight in the right-hand lane - i.e. the left or middle lane (depending on the roundabout) leads to the left-hand lane on the far side of the road, and the right-hand lane on the roundabout leads to the right-hand lane on the far side. In these cases, entering in the left or middle lane, and pushing into the right-hand lane is the incorrect thing to do.

The big problem you'll find with roundabouts is that people largely refuse to believe that they've done the wrong thing. They seem to make up their own rules in their head, and justify their actions based on the lane configuration - completely ignoring the road markings. The number of times I've had people screech to a halt and beep at me because they thought they could go right in the left-hand lane is staggering. You'd be wasting your time attempting to tell your colleague he was wrong.

littlejukka

do you have an aerial photograph of the roundabout?

Balfa

Just tell us which roundabout it is. It sounds awfully strange.

I sympathise with whoever's in the wrong, mind you... three lane roundabouts just shouldn't exist.

endplate

There's nothing strange about it at all your work collegue was trying to make up ground in traffic by deliberatly taking the wrong lane and nearly got caught out. The lane system was set up to avoid this type of conflict cos if your turning right at the next roundabout you have to change lane very quickly it makes sense to me. Your collegue it been an arse give him a ROTR book opened on the roundabout use section. Keep doing what your doing but watch your mirrors a bit more coming off the roundabout for this asshole and the other assholes who try this manouver.

Mexicola

Hould on a second here. From that diagram it looks like you are going from being in the left hand lane (ignore the left turn lane) through the roundabout and straight into the right hand lane of the dualer after the roundabout. If that is the case then you were in the wrong and the guy had every right to carry on through on the right lane. Correct me if I am wroing.

You need to tell us where this roundabout is located.

yop

Your right, he is in wrong.

Its simple 3 lanes into 2, either in lane 1 or 2.
2 lanes into 1, lane 1.
2 lanes into 2, either lane 1 or 2.

Neilw

In this situation you were both wrong, let me explain.

He was in the wrong lane to start with, he went straight thru the roundabout and exited into the right lane which was also wrong.

You were in the correct lane entering the roundabout but you went into the right lane when you exited the roundabout, this was wrong.
You should have went into the left lane on the exit of the roundabout and then as you drove on changed lanes to the right lane for the next roundabout.

He was more to blame then you, you made a minor mistake.

Neil.

kmick

I think you were in the right BUT the way I see it is that for your own sanity and safety you should be moving to the left lane of the dual carraigeway when exiting- so that when idiots in the wrong lane try and cut in they can do so without enfdangering you. I presume said idiot did not use his indicators to indicate he was turning left?

Also are you sure his lane was right turn only?

FYI if there was an accident here the blame would be 50/50.

copacetic

what about if the other guy had been going to turn right at this roundabout? If the OP changed lanes on the roundabout then she is cutting him off even when he is doing the correct thing.

No matter what the road markings say, swinging across lanes while on a roundabout is not good driving imo.

BrianD3

copacetic wrote:

what about if the other guy had been going to turn right at this roundabout? If the OP changed lanes on the roundabout then she is cutting him off even when he is doing the correct thing.

No matter what the road markings say, swinging across lanes while on a roundabout is not good driving imo.

The impression I get from the OP is
-she didn't actually change lanes, she just followed the normal course of the lane she was in and took the right hand option when it split in two.
-she didn't "cut him off" till the exit. If he had gone for the 3rd exit instead of te 2nd, the two of them would not have been on the same piece of road at the same time

Although it's not the exact same think about this. You are on the M50 and wish to get off at a partciular exit. You come to where the slip road starts but are blocked from taking the exit as some idiot who was behind you has decided to turn the last 100 yards of hard shoulder into an extension of the off ramp. He has no business being there - just as yer man on the roundabout has no business being where he was.

David Michael

copacetic wrote:

what about if the other guy had been going to turn right at this roundabout? If the OP changed lanes on the roundabout then she is cutting him off even when he is doing the correct thing.

No matter what the road markings say, swinging across lanes while on a roundabout is not good driving imo.

I take it you don't hit many large roundabouts much.

On a lot of large round abouts you have to change lanes while on them. One example is the M1 to M50 exit. It is actually quite common place to do it.

Common sense applies a lot when driving. And courtesy.

seamus

David Michael wrote:

On a lot of large round abouts you have to change lanes while on them. One example is the M1 to M50 exit. It is actually quite common place to do it.

These massive, light-controlled roundabouts aren't strictly roundabouts though in the true sense of the word. They're more like circular 2/3 lane carriageways, which require you to change lane on them to get where you're going

Where the roundabout isn't controlled by lights, it's very rare to need to change lanes specifically on the roundabout. In any case, you *never* change into another lane on a roundabout when there is other traffic trying to use that lane.

David Michael

seamus wrote:

These massive, light-controlled roundabouts aren't strictly roundabouts though in the true sense of the word. They're more like circular 2/3 lane carriageways, which require you to change lane on them to get where you're going

Where the roundabout isn't controlled by lights, it's very rare to need to change lanes specifically on the roundabout. In any case, you *never* change into another lane on a roundabout when there is other traffic trying to use that lane.

I'll admit I never even thought of the traffic light factor Seamus. There are times though due to heavy traffic/badsignage or what every that you can be in the wrong lane approaching a roundabout and indication of intent and some common sense and courtesy go along way.

For example in a non round about way I was comming past Nissan on the walkinstown avenue approaching EP Money (Nissan)... I took the slip exit at the lights to the left leaving me in the bus lane where I was adjusting my speed to allow me to slip into the moving traffic...had a gap available...indicated.... and the pr1ck who would have been behind me had i entered the gap accellerated closing said gap...just to not let me in. I could see it by his face/actions he did it on purpose!

I swear if I had f had something throw able in my car I'd have fuked it at his car!!

copacetic

David Michael wrote:

I take it you don't hit many large roundabouts much.

On a lot of large round abouts you have to change lanes while on them. One example is the M1 to M50 exit. It is actually quite common place to do it.

Common sense applies a lot when driving. And courtesy.

why do you take that?

Of course you can change lanes, just not when there is someone already there, or do you not bother to check?

If the other guy wasn't there it doesn't matter what the OP does, the issue is when you just change lanes in spite of the fact that there was already someone there and then claim you are in the right...

David Michael

copacetic wrote:

why do you take that?

Of course you can change lanes, just not when there is someone already there, or do you not bother to check?

If the other guy wasn't there it doesn't matter what the OP does, the issue is when you just change lanes in spite of the fact that there was already someone there and then claim you are in the right...

I said it because....

copacetic wrote:

No matter what the road markings say, swinging across lanes while on a roundabout is not good driving imo.

I didn't guess you meant when some one else was in the lane because if that was the case you would crash into them or cause them to brake/avoid you. So why would I even think that.

In general while driving... crashing into people is bad. Unless you are a police type person.

R.O.R

David Michael wrote:

On a lot of large round abouts you have to change lanes while on them. One example is the M1 to M50 exit. It is actually quite common place to do it.

Coming from the M1 to the M50 you don't change lanes on the roundabout. You stay within the white markings on the road (the lanes) and these move you from one part of the road to another. Reason I hate using that roundabout (light controlled or not) is because very few people understand the stupidly simple premise outlined above.


Have a look next time you are on - if you have to cross a white line, you're doing something wrong.

Seth Brundle

In saying that it isn't without its roadmarking issues. The approach to it from the M50 has one lane that Ive never seen used legally (to join the M1 N) and suddenly two lanes become three on the roundabout itself.
Many of the roundabouts along the M50 are badly marked (my pet hate is the roundabout over the M50 near the Beacon).