Who is correct in this roundabout scenario?

copacetic

David Michael wrote:

I said it because....


I didn't guess you meant when some one else was in the lane because if that was the case you would crash into them or cause them to brake/avoid you. So why would I even think that.

In general while driving... crashing into people is bad. Unless you are a police type person.

The whole point of the OPs story is that there was someone there who says they were cut up by this lane change. Did you not understand that?

David Michael

copacetic wrote:

The whole point of the OPs story is that there was someone there who says they were cut up by this lane change. Did you not understand that?

Actually if you read it again you will see that the cut up was not done by a lane change. The op is not claiming to having being cut up by someone changing lanes.

The person changing lanes claims they were cut up by the person staying in the "correct" lane.

Did you not understand that?

/gets out handbag...

copacetic

well the OP thinks it was the 'correct' lane, but obviously the guy who thinks he was cut up feels it was the 'incorrect' lane, as he was in it.

[goes to fill his handbag with rocks]

faceman

OP what roundabout was it? Was there 3 lanes on the roundabout itself or 2? Sounds like he was in the wrong.

su_dios

copacetic wrote:

well the OP thinks it was the 'correct' lane, but obviously the guy who thinks he was cut up feels it was the 'incorrect' lane, as he was in it.

[goes to fill his handbag with rocks]

3 lanes entering, 2 lanes exiting.. how can the person in the far right lane be in the right for exiting straight ahead? Surely to go straight ahead you need to be in the inner two lanes and exit respectively?

If there are 2 lanes entering and 2 lanes exiting is it right to take the right lane to go straight ahead if you want to exit in the right lane?( left lane goes left or straight ahead but ends up in left lane on exit) Says in the rules of the road book thats ok but only if instructed to do so?? I thought this was common practice

seamus

su_dios wrote:

If there are 2 lanes entering and 2 lanes exiting is it right to take the right lane to go straight ahead if you want to exit in the right lane?( left lane goes left or straight ahead but ends up in left lane on exit) Says in the rules of the road book thats ok but only if instructed to do so?? I thought this was common practice

Usually, provided that the arrows don't say differently.

General rule is that if there are three lanes approaching the roundabout, the left hand lane is for turning left, and there are two lanes on and after the roundabout, then the right hand-lane approaching the roundabout matches up with the right-hand lane exiting the roundabout.

PeakOutput

kittex wrote:

Common sense, and the rules of the road, tell me to go in the lane marked right for turning right, left for left and straight ahead for straight ahead.

It doesn't tell me to drive as if turning right, then be pissed because there's someone in my way when I want to 'change my mind' and exit early at the 2nd exit.

The roundabout isn't in Dublin.

I've tried to illustrate it (badly) here.

im sure this has already been said but ill jsut throw in my view of it having worked in a claims department for 2 years

if it is exactly as you described then the other person is in the wrong lane HOWEVER youa re still chaning lanes weather you are doing it on the round about or just after the roundabout on the dual carriage way the ONUS is on YOU to check your mirrors (technically) before you indicate and then assuming it is safe you can change lanes.

he was in the wrong to start with but if an accident had of happened it would be more than likely 50-50 and if he had a good insurance guy (like me:p) handling his claim i could see it going 75-25 in his favour as he made a mistake but it was you not following the correct procedure for changing lanes that would have caused the accident.

now i know your going to say that you were not changing lanes that this is where the lane leads to but as far as i know from what you have drawn you should of exited on the left hand lane and then proceded to move into the right hand lane.

not getting at you personally or anything its a complicated one alright

cast_iron

Assuming the are 3 lanes on the actual roundabout (not just the approach), he must have been wrong.

Take the left lane approaching - it leads to the left turn, but after the left turn, we have an empty lane on the roundabout, and its natural exit is the left lane on the straight ahead exit.

The middle lane is the next lane over, and assuming we don't cross any lanes (as we shouldn't), that means it leads to the (only remaining) right lane on the exit.

To me, the road markings approaching the roundabout are complicating the issue - they make the left lane on it largely redundant. 2 of the entry lanes should lead to 2 of the exit lanes, and the remaining lane for a left or right turn.

Lesson: Always check your mirrors.


Edit: I somewhat agree with PeakOutput, but it depends on whether there are 2 or 3 lanes on the actual roundabout.

PeakOutput

cast_iron wrote:

Assuming the are 3 lanes on the actual roundabout (not just the approach), he must have been wrong.

Take the left lane approaching - it leads to the left turn, but after the left turn, we have an empty lane on the roundabout, and its natural exit is the left lane on the straight ahead exit.

The middle lane is the next lane over, and assuming we don't cross any lanes (as we shouldn't), that means it leads to the (only remaining) right lane on the exit.

To me, the road markings approaching the roundabout are complicating the issue - they make the left lane on it largely redundant. 2 of the entry lanes should lead to 2 of the exit lanes, and the remaining lane for a left or right turn.

Lesson: Always check your mirrors.

my experience of three lanes approaching is the roundabout near clare hall

the left lane is left turn only but there is no markings on the other two so it could be different

the left lane is marked in such away that the middle lane approaching leads you to the extreme left of the roundabout after the first exit. you then exit on the middle lane(as there is a bus lane on the left but forget thats there for a minute as the busses use the middle lane of the round about to get to the bus lane aswell) the right hand lane approaching gets you to the 3rd exit or the right hand lane of the second exit.

as far as i can see there is no way the op should of been exiting the roundabout onto the far right lane. if she did then she is partly in the wrong and if she exited the round about in the correct left lane then she is partly in the wrong again for not checking her mirrors before changing lane.

obviously this is just my opinion as with everything set down as laws or rules they can be interpreted differently and iv been out of insurance for a year now so could be rusty

cast_iron

I agree if the roundabout configuration was as the Clare Hall one (a good one), the OP was in the wrong. But she seems to be saying it's a different setup - one that leaves the left lane on the roundabout redundant.

Sadly, there is no consistenct in roundabouts, and they appear to make up the road markings as they go, with no thought involved.

A google earth image might be useful.

BrianD3

cast_iron wrote:

one that leaves the left lane on the roundabout redundant.

Sadly, there is no consistenct in roundabouts, and they appear to make up the road markings as they go, with no thought involved.

The left lane may turn into a dead end if you try to use it to continue past the 1st exit. You might run out of road, end up facing a barrier etc. I agree about the consistency - there seems to be a huge number of variations/variables. There can be many factors which influence this. Eg if the "hub" of the roundabout is skewed to one side or all exits are not at 90 degress to each other.

But I think roundabout designers have a thankless job having to take account of all the variables involved many of which are outside their control.

kittex

Woah, you go to work and come back to a 3 pager.

Thanks for all the advice, I see what everyone is saying about it being better to exit into the left hand lane anyway, just to be extra safe. I take that on board and will act on it, although it's tough with the 2nd roundabout appearing almost immediately and early morning traffic!

Regarding saying I didn't check my mirrors etc, I did. From my point of view, he was just behind me on the inner right turn lane, and suddenly attmepted to swing left into my lane, as I was exiting onto the dual carriageway. He saw me as being in his way, therefore, said I cut him off, as I was where he wanted to be. He had to hit the brakes for a second, then carry on.
Split second thing.

I really did not expect someone to try and change lanes on the roundabout in that way. I've always been taught that's it's safer to exit at the place you're in the lane for, turn and return to the roundabout correctly.

cast_iron

Looks like you are okay on the mirror issue also.

But before (and if) you do decide to say anything, if it was a 2 lane roundabout, you were probably in the wrong. Can you confirm the number of lanes on it?

J_R

Hi,

Next time you see him, ask him why does he think that the "Turn Right" arrow in the road does not apply to him. ???

Looking at your diagram, (and reading some of the replies) it is totally immaterial how many lanes/exits are on the roundabout. How would a stranger know the layout ?. Therefore, on approach you obey the directional arrows and get into the appropriate marked lane.

You are going straight ahead therefore you enter by using the straight ahead lane. On exiting you have the choice of the two lanes. If you are turning right a short distance ahead then you exit using the right hand lane.

Why not use the right lane, who else can use it ?? Not the fellow to your right, he is going right, the car to your left has turned off left. Both lanes are all yours.

If the roundabout/dual - carriageway road markings have been done correctly, the exit into the d'way will only be one marked lane, not two, but it will split into the two lanes a very short distance ahead. (Check it out next time)

Do not use the left lane to exit, otherwise you may not be able to get back to the right lane in time. Just watch out for the morans who believe the rules do not apply to them.

cast_iron

J_R wrote:

Why not use the right lane, who else can use it ?? Not the fellow to your right, he is going right, the car to your left has turned off left. Both lanes are all yours.

Em, I think you have forgotten something - what about those already in the roundabout. If someone was approaching from the East side (as per diagram), it is likely the OP and that person may be side by side whilst travelling around the roundabout. You could then argue the other guy should definitely not exit on the left (lane change needed), so must use the right lane on the North exit, meaning the OP should use the left exit lane.

J_R wrote:

Just watch out for the morans who believe the rules do not apply to them.

And watch out for those that don't even know them.

WizZard

Is anyone else scared by the wildly differing viewpoints shown on this thread on how to use something that (pretty much) all drivers ancounter every day?

kittex

cast_iron wrote:

if it was a 2 lane roundabout, you were probably in the wrong. Can you confirm the number of lanes on it?

Sorry, thought I had typed it in but I appear to have not - 3 lanes on entry and around the roundabout.

cast_iron wrote:

what about those already in the roundabout. If someone was approaching from the East side (as per diagram), it is likely the OP and that person may be side by side whilst travelling around the roundabout. You could then argue the other guy should definitely not exit on the left (lane change needed), so must use the right lane on the North exit, meaning the OP should use the left exit lane.

I see this side of the issue also. My exit, would be their 'right exit' and so I should keep that lane free for them. Hmmmm....

J_R, thanks for comments. I will indeed keep my eyes very, very open at this one!

J_R wrote:

If the roundabout/dual - carriageway road markings have been done correctly, the exit into the d'way will only be one marked lane, not two, but it will split into the two lanes a very short distance ahead. (Check it out next time)

This could be part of the issue - it immediately is 2 lanes. It does not gradually split.

This morning I checked everything again and yes, was as I said.
I also noticed 2 cars nearly colliding on the other side due to similar confusions.

Thanks everyone, some really good advice, despite the confusion.

J_R

cast_iron wrote:

Em, I think you have forgotten something - what about those already in the roundabout. .

OK, hands up - did forget.

However, normal roundabout rules would apply to the other traffic.

I was only concerned with the OP's posting regarding the straight ahead scenario she described. Admit was not taking into account the other traffic.

But I still say she should exit in the right lane, (if clear) and her workmate is totally wrong.

However, let her check out the road markings on the exit. Should be only one lane, dividing into two.

kittex

J_R wrote:

OK, hands up - did forget.

However, normal roundabout rules would apply to the other traffic.

I was only concerned with the OP's posting regarding the straight ahead scenario she described. Admit was not taking into account the other traffic.

But I still say she should exit in the right lane, (if clear) and her workmate is totally wrong.

However, let her check out the road markings on the exit. Should be only one lane, dividing into two.

No, it's definitely immediately two lanes. I double checked every little detail this morning!

I might actually write to the council concerned and complain that the road markings are causing confusion.

Dub_girl_101

Worst two round-abouts ever ----> That clare hall one and the one driving towards Swords from Malahide....soooo incredibly dangerous, everyones all over the place on that one!

BTW- reading your thread, I personally think you are right and you workmate is in the wrong....I could be wrong though but thats my view on it for ya!

J_R

Dub_girl_101 wrote:

BTW- reading your thread, I personally think you are right and you workmate is in the wrong....I could be wrong though but thats my view on it for ya!

Of course he is wrong Warn him that he can incur 1 penalty for:-

Failure to comply with Traffic Lane Markings

and a fine of 60 Euro

Esel

J_R wrote:

Just watch out for the morans who believe the rules do not apply to them.

Hey, lay off the Morans! They are not morons, at least the ones I know. They obey the ROTR too.

PeakOutput

Dub_girl_101 wrote:

Worst two round-abouts ever ----> That clare hall one and the one driving towards Swords from Malahide....soooo incredibly dangerous, everyones all over the place on that one!

i personally think that one between swords an malahide is so easy to understand........the road markings are there people just dont follow them

i cant wait for the day a beemer(its always a beemer that does this) crashes into me taking the malahide exit from the middle lane with me in the left hand lane ill nail their balls to the wall.

however i do use it every day but i reckon 75% of the people that use it use it every day aswell

Balfa

Kittex, you still haven't told us what roundabout it is! Out with it.

David Michael

Balfa wrote:

Kittex, you still haven't told us what roundabout it is! Out with it.

Agreed.

Why can't you tell us? It would be nice to base advice ont he actual roundabout. For example if it was the walkinstown one I'd just tell you to floor it and hope for the best

Best not mentioning the one in Welwyn Garden City. Crazy multi round the other roundabout..roundabout.

galwaytt

Two issues there, his and yours. You are incorrect in your choice of lane - he may be incorrect in his (esp if he came from the East in your sketch).

I have had this exact conversation twice - one in IAM test and one on bike training session, and on both I've got agreement from the instructors that lane changing whilst on a roundabout, is bad practice, at the very least.

Or, put another way: you approach a roundabout, on a dual carriageway, and are presented with 3 lanes: L, Straight, R. You have no choice - you must use the central one. However, there are lanes on the exit. In keeping with std dual carraigeway and motorway practice, you drive on the left most lane, and you must enter the carriageway in that lane. To 'get over' for your next roundabout, as you need to, you make a separate, distinct manouvre on the dual carriageway. NOT on the roundabout.

J_R

Hi,


The OP's workmate is BREAKING THE LAW by going straight ahead in a lane marked for a right turn.
See:-How to change lanes safely

* When in a lane or approaching a junction, obey any road signs or markings (usually arrows) indicating the direction that traffic in those lanes must take.

Also See:- When you reach the roundabout

You must obey any road markings on the lanes and/or other instructions to show what lane to use if you intend to take a particular exit from the roundabout.

Introduction (ROTR)

It uses must and must not to draw attention to behaviour the law clearly demands or forbids.

So, Kittex - print out the linked pages, highlight the appropriate section and give to your friend. Tell him you will report him next time.

Next the exit.

Normally you exit in the left lane, however if taking a right turn a short distance ahead you may exit in the right lane.

Why not - if clear. If you exit in the left lane, then have to change lanes immediately you are executing two manoeuvres. Going directly to the lane you want - is one. Much safer driving. And more than likely all other traffic is doing the same, which would make it extremely difficult for you to do the exit left lane - then change to right lane routine.

Few posters have mentioned that you should not change lanes on a roundabout. If that was true there would only be one usable lane on a roundabout - the outside lane. If you can not change lanes how does a person get into the inside lane and out again

PeakOutput

J_R wrote:

Next the exit.

Normally you exit in the left lane, however if taking a right turn a short distance ahead you may exit in the right lane.

personally i dont think thats safe for the exact reason the op is asking us about

Why not - if clear.

the point is it was not clear. you can do most things on a road if there are no other cars around the debate comes in when there are other cars around and you caused an accident by doing them.

Few posters have mentioned that you should not change lanes on a roundabout. If that was true there would only be one usable lane on a roundabout - the outside lane. If you can not change lanes how does a person get into the inside lane and out again

i agree on this one there are roundabouts (like the malahide ra near the pavilions in swords) were changing lanes is a necessity as the lanes move from 2 to 3 and then to 2 again so there is no hard and fast rule about changing lanes on a roundabout as long as you it like every other lane change and check your mirrors etc. and for the record exiting a roundabout from the inside lane is considered a lane change aswell

J_R

PeakOutput wrote:

personally i dont think thats safe for the exact reason the op is asking us about

The OP posted that she was exiting in the right hand lane, workmate claimed she cut him off

he was in the wrong lane, in that he was coming off at the 2nd exit

From that I assumed he entered same entrance as her, going straight ahead, hence previous post on road markings. He simply should not have been there, he was totally in the wrong, liable for a penalty point.

Back to exiting, she may exit either left or right lane if she obeys the rules regarding priority. That is, give way to traffic already on the roundabout, allow cars who wish to exit to cross in front, do not enter a lane in front of another car, etc. etc. etc. Same rules apply equally to whichever lane she takes. I do not understand the difficulty.

You always get into your correct lane, and/or appropriate position as soon as possible. She wants the right lane 'cause she is turning right a short distance ahead, so she exits in the right hand lane. If she can not safely do so, she exits in the left hand lane and then makes her way over to the right hand lane in the dual carriageway. Or extreme case, indicate right and circle the roundabout, try again.

To simplify matters, say you are on a two lane roundabout, exiting into a dual carriageway, when you cross from an inside lane to the outside lane to exit, that is a lane change. It is still a lane change whither you choose to exit into the left or right hand lane. No difference whatsoever, you just stay on the roundabout for a few meters longer. If you want the right hand lane of the dual carriageway, staying on the roundabout those extra few meters saves you a full lane change in the dual carriageway. And all the inherent dangers that entails.

Quite a few of the replies say she must not exit in the right hand lane, so, who exactly can exit in that lane ??.

Basic rule of exiting from a roundabout is you exit left, irrespective which entrance/exit. However that may be superseded by road markings, above situation etc. etc

cast_iron

WizZard wrote:

Is anyone else scared by the wildly differing viewpoints shown on this thread on how to use something that (pretty much) all drivers ancounter every day?

Indeed.

It says alot about our driver training (we can't refer to ANY documentation to get a conclusive answer).