The great HD con

highanddefined

I glance through these pages every so often and see a huge amount of confusion over HD, often from people who would be of the belief that they know their stuff. However, ever since HD tvs were launched in Ireland and other countries I've noticed some dubious salesman tactics going on and a lot of people seem to have fallen for it. I never registered here to comment before but after a friend fell for all the fancy tags on a new HD tv and feels a bit cheated now on knowing the truth, I thought I'd help a few people from buying a tv that is not what they believe. I'll add a disclaimer that I'm open to correction but my background is in this area. Apologies to those that this is already familiar to but I feel some people need to read it.

Before I begin my rant I'll need to explain something about the size of TVs.

TVs are advertised using the diagonal measurement - eg, 14", 21", 50". This was always perfectly adequate as television broadcasts only came in one fixed width and height in Ireland. Therefore, if a TV screen was a bigger size, the broadcast picture was scaled up to fit the screen. Simple and you knew what you were buying.

If you're familiar with computer monitors, aswell as telling you their diagonal measurement in a similar fashion to how TVs are advertised, they also tell you the resolution they are capable of displaying on the screen. This can be simplified into meaning the amount of coloured dots that can be displayed on the screen. For example, you might have a 15" computer screen and it claims it has a resolution of 800x600. This means it can display 800 dots in width and 600 dots in length. Some 15" screens have a resolution of 1024x768. The screen would still have the same physical dimension of being 15" but it can squeeze more dots into it, giving more clarity.

TVs today now come in varying resolutions. This is the standard ever since HD was introduced. It was very important to know the resolution of the TV you're buying but you will rarely ever see the resolution being listed with the television. Why? Because people would avoid buying certain televisions and then only the more expensive models would be available, reducing sales. You usually have to go to the website of the TV manufacturer and look in the small writing of the specifications to find the resolution. So how is this covered over?

'HD-Ready'. I hate this term. I really do. It means very little but is designed to give you the impression that you are buying a TV capable of showing you HD content. This is only partially true.

To elaborate, I should introduce the resolutions that TV is broadcast in today and include HD-DVD, Blu-Ray and games consoles as they use the same standards in measuring. For the sake of simplicity (and this is only to people who know their stuff) I'm omitting the factors of interlace/progressive scan here, LCD/Cathode-ray, widescreen/anamorphic, and 'safe regions' that can be cut off edges.

When HD was planned it was decided it would come in two resolutions: 1280x720
1920x1080

Traditional television broadcasts and regular DVDs are in a resolution of 720x576

I'll emphasise that these are the sizes of the picture itself and nothing to do with the size of the TV screen. You can see how beneficial HD is just by comparing how much more is in a picture than the traditional picture size. If you can imagine a tiny 15" screen and squeezing 1920x1080 dots of colour on it compared to the usual 720x576, it would be incredibly sharp. Obviously, it wouldn't be the cleverest thing to watch images of that resolution on such a small screen (and to the best of my knowledge, I've never seen a 15" screen capable of displaying such a resolution).

Now, 'HD-Ready' has come to be labelled on anything that can display a resolution higher than 720x576. There are people out there who have bought 42" or 50" TVs out there with a big 'HD-Ready' badge on them that are only capable of displaying a picture-size or resolution of 1024x768. This is less than the average 20" computer monitor.

So when I hear or read how (un)impressed people are by the picture improvement when watching a Blu-Ray DVD or playing a video game on in HD on their screen and comparing it to the traditional size, it means absolutely nothing. Two people might be trying to convince each other that the other person is wrong, that their 42" 'HD' tv is more/less of an improvement than they're claiming, yet they've no idea one person is seeing a picture of 1920x1080 and the other is seeing a picture of 1024x768. These numbers aren't obvious but are incredibly important if you've any interest in the picture quality of your tv set.

The 42" TV set my friend just bought has tags stuck to it saying '1080p Digital Processing Chip-Set', '1080p Digital Re-mastering Processor' and 'HD Optimiser. None of these suggest that the tv can actually only display a resolution of 1024x768.

1024x768 doesn't even match the lowest of the two HD standards. It's somewhere inbetween the traditional 720x576 and the lowest HD standard. Of course, if has all the HD connections on the back and will take all of the signals. If you feed it a 1920x1080 signal it will accept it perfectly but will shrink the picture down to a resolution of 1024x768 before displaying it on the 42" screen. 1024x768 is just an example I'm giving as it was what my friend's tv turned out to be able to display. The majority of HD-Ready tvs can display 1280x720 but most cannot display 1920x1080 at the resolution they're intended. They shrink the picture to a lower quality before displaying them.

Bearing in mind that the standards of 1920x1080 and 1280x768 were created together, I had to laugh when I saw a magazine advert for a HD TV proclaiming 'the latest breakthrough' and showing a tv capable of displaying 1920x1080. The prices are coming down and they're marketing the best resolution TVs more. I imagine that eventually only 1920x1080 TVs will be produced as the price will have dropped enough not to worry about smaller resolutions.


The last thing I want to mention is this fad of 'DVD-Upscaling'. If you see a DVD player that mentions it has a HD connection and upscales DVDs, it means absolutely nothing. If you think about it, your DVD player into your band new 50" HD tv set fills the screen grand, so the TV itself is upscaling. it's upscales everything that's below its built-in resolution and shrinks everything that's above it. Now, what the DVD player might do is give a better quality upscale before the signal reaches the TV and then sends it to the TV as a HD signal. So once again, a term that's widely in use means very little if two people are comparing their experience with it. It's far too vague for comparison. I would only trust a review of <i>how well</i> something upscales, not the actual fact that it upscales.

spockety

This has been discussed here before.. most of what you're saying is valid alright.

As I said in another post a couple of months ago, if you think you pull your hair out now looking at the ads, wait until more and more 1366x768 panels start coming out with the ability to process a 1080p signal...

"FULL 1080P HD READY - PS3 1080p, BLU-RAY 1080p COMPATIBLE!"

'compatible'. Oh dear.

conax

Hmmmmmm,
There is a bit more to resolution than the panels native resolution but in principal I agree with what you are saying.

EireEV

My (HD) is 1440*900 - how would this rate? guessing from what you saying this is somewhere in between the 2 standard HD resolutions??

The Denouncer

My Hitachi screen is 1024x1024 and uses ALiS technology so apparently 1080i looks better on it that 720p, but I have to use component.

Wertz

The fact is, if you're going to go out there someplace today and blow upwards of a grand on a new set, then you really should have your homework done and not fall for the marketing spiel that some salesmen are only too willing to fill your head with....I'm on my second HD ready TV...the first was an LCD (1280*768) and the second a plasma (1024*768). I was well aware that only the LCD did true 720p but I'm much happier with the picture from the plasma (which is the same set as the OP's mate's I believe) both with HD sources and SD stuff.
I agree that the terms are misleading to an extent but then the same can be said if you go off to buy a car or a PC....if you don't know what it is you're buying and why it is you need it, then perhaps you deserve to fall for the marketing...


BTW did anyone hear the piece on Matt Cooper on thursday last about the HD ready debacle? Sorry but whoever that guy from PC live mag (or whatever)was, he gave some very slanted views on HD and ended up confusing the issues (and probably some listeners), failed to mention other HD sources apart from SkyHD and basically told us to stick with SD CRT displays; no mention either that you can now have a physically large screen without having bulky cabinets that weigh a tonne, or any of the other benfits of non-CRT technology.
It seems our main problem in europe currently is hat we have one whole hell of a lot of shiny new tellies for sale, but our broadcasters are playing catch-up when it comes to properly sized content to display on them....that will come with time, meanwhile the prices for the equipemnt capable of displaying it continues to fall, so why not adopt and future proof your set up?
Like I said, do your homework and if you're not sure about something ask someone without a vested interest in selling you the TV...

311

I thought different companies where approaching manufacturing in different ways.
Surely certain companies are ahead of others in the market. I don't see anything wrong with a company trying to survive.

More choice in the end.

johnnyrotten

I looking at THIS

Its resolution is 1366*768

Whats that like?

Wertz

johnnyrotten wrote:

I looking at THIS

Its resolution is 1366*768

Whats that like?

Standard fare; it'll do 720p and 1080i with that res, just like all the other HD ready LCDs will.
As for the TV itself, can't say....hunt up a review somewhere, but samsung seem to make a decent set...

mathias

first off , I agree totally with the OP , there is a lot of " cons " going on out there with regards to HD , either deliberately or through ignorance , my pet hate at the moment is shops selling 1080p and 720p HDMI cables ! ( for the record theres no such thing as different HDMI cables for each res ! its a con )

Having said that , a good HDTV is a joy to watch , I have had mine now for over a year with SkyHD and the picture quality still gets me every time.

I was watching heroes on the BBC HD last night , simply stunning.

I looking at THIS

Its resolution is 1366*768

Whats that like?

With regards to the above , well the way I look at it is this ,

Both 1920 x 1080 and 1280 x 720 are 16:9 resolutions , most available HD content I get is 1080( i or p ) so the scaling involved is easy and should be done well on most sets if that set is also a native 16:9 resolution.

1366 x 768 is also a 16:9 resolution , and only needs a scaling of 1.06 for 1280 x 720 content. A scaling of 1.4 is needed for 1920 x 1080.
This is nice and easy as both horizontal and vertical scale by the same amount.
So , for the price , a 1366 x 768 TV is not a bad choice ,

On the other hand , with a 1024 x 768 ( 4:3 ) , well to display HD thats a downscale on the vertical and and upscale on the horizontal , some sets do it OK , but others do it terribly , I have seen some absolutely dreadful results on sets like this.

In short , a native 16:9 res should work out better than most , and if you can afford a 1920 x 1080 native res , thats the one to get , it wont get any better than that for a long long time.

Also , always always check out the model online before buying , Komplett list all the native resolutions of their sets , for that matter so do DID in Lucan ( one shop I really like , the guys have a proper skyhd setup and know their stuff , ) and Alliance electric on Georges st. are excellent too.

conax

mathias wrote:

my pet hate at the moment is shops selling 1080p and 720p HDMI cables ! ( for the record theres no such thing as different HDMI cables for each res ! its a con )

just for you.
Monster Cable has launched a series of five distinct categories of HDMI cables Standard Speed, High Speed, Advanced High Speed, Ultra High Speed & Ultimate High Speed.

Ultimate High Speed must be the best then....might just get me one of those babies

Mountjoy Mugger

No dogs' danglies out yet then?

conax

Mountjoy Mugger wrote:

No dogs' danglies out yet then?

Not yet, that will be their 1080p cable. They are still trying to suck the oxygen from the gold connector.:)

rimshott

highanddefined wrote:

I never registered here to comment before but after a friend fell for all the fancy tags on a new HD tv and feels a bit cheated now on knowing the truth, I thought I'd help a few people from buying a tv that is not what they believe. .

I've just bought this tv:
http://www.consumer.philips.com/consumer/en/gb/consumer/cc/_productid_42PFL7662D_05_GB_CONSUMER/widescreen-flat-TV+42PFL7662D-05?proxybuster=Y2VFS1W52DBLVJ0RMRCSHQFHKFSESI5P

I haven't collected it yet, so i'm sure they'll let me change it.
Is it a good buy??
or what should i get instead? I paid E1400 for it.
I also bought a Philips dvd upscaler for E85 aswell which i haven't collected either.
Should i leave it Because i already have a philips dvd player and surround sound system.

What to do? I understood most of the OP'S post but you don't say if it's all a shambles or just false advertising?

tinkerbell

Please help me too! Thinking of buying one at the weekend and now i'm all scared!!!
http://www.samsung.com/uk/products/television/plasma/ps42q96hdxxeu.asp?page=Specifications
Is that one any good?

311

I noticed in the argos catalog ,they give the screen resolution of all there TV's .

Makes things a little easier.

Avns1s

rimshott wrote:

I've just bought this tv:
http://www.consumer.philips.com/consumer/en/gb/consumer/cc/_productid_42PFL7662D_05_GB_CONSUMER/widescreen-flat-TV+42PFL7662D-05?proxybuster=Y2VFS1W52DBLVJ0RMRCSHQFHKFSESI5P

I haven't collected it yet, so i'm sure they'll let me change it.
Is it a good buy??
or what should i get instead? I paid E1400 for it.
I also bought a Philips dvd upscaler for E85 aswell which i haven't collected either.
Should i leave it Because i already have a philips dvd player and surround sound system.

What to do? I understood most of the OP'S post but you don't say if it's all a shambles or just false advertising?

I hope it is because I have just bought one at the same price you mention.

I'm very happy with it. Great pic when fed from the skybox over scart. I have already recommended it to a few people who have also purchased.

I don't know anything about your dvd upscaler. sorry.

skywalker

johnnyrotten wrote:

I looking at THIS

Its resolution is 1366*768

Whats that like?

Does anyone know why 99% of panels being sold are this res instead of 1280x720. Surely the native res of 720p would be better?

rimshott

skywalker wrote:

Does anyone know why 99% of panels being sold are this res instead of 1280x720. Surely the native res of 720p would be better?

I walked into Powercity the weekend and went up to a sales guy - I told him out straight i'm not looking for a tv - i'm only here to buy a radio.
So i said to him is all this HD talk a load of bull - he answered by saying "oh in 2 years time, etc, etc, etc."
I says "cut the bull - is it all a con?"

Honestly he says "YES". Most people don't know what their buying...
Unless you have a PS3 or a Blueray dvd player your not gonna get the best out of these tv's. But you will get a slightly better picture using it for normal sky and dvd player.

Thanks very much i said and walked out.

big_moe

rimshott wrote:

I says "cut the bull - is it all a con?"

Honestly he says "YES". Most people don't know what their buying...
Unless you have a PS3 or a Blueray dvd player your not gonna get the best out of these tv's. But you will get a slightly better picture using it for normal sky and dvd player.

Thanks very much i said and walked out.

its not a con in the slightest. some stores maybe be trying to con you but decent stores wont. now, people buying without knowing what they're buying is a different story...

i am on my 3rd HDTV, i do not have Sky HD or Blu Ray or an HD source. i am well aware that i am not getting the full potential out of my TV, that is my choice.

what i do have is a very good Pioneer upscaling DVD player and the television looks fantastic on my upscaled DVDs. i also have ntl Digital and the picture is very good on most material.

any of the good makers of TV (Panasonic, Pioneer, Sony etc) don't even sell non-HD screens.

and when it comes down to the resolution, it is a bit all over the place i agree. my TV (42" Panasonic, same as what the OPs mate has) has 1024 X 768 resolution. technically, that is a 4:3 ratio, but the TV has those pixels in a 16:9 screen. and the quality is second to none. even better than the 1366 X 768 ("True" Widescreen) LCD screens.

the only way to see if a tv is good or not is to look at it. check the specs online etc to see if you think you're interested. then call into a shop that sells it and see it on HD and on SD. bring in a DVD you are familiar with and test the TV out with it.

the amount of people that don't know what they're buying or have been told what to get by a mate who "knows his stuff" is unreal. in this day and age, there is no excuse for an uninformed purchase. read reviews online, read reviews in magazines, look at the TV in person.... a little effort and you'll get a grand TV.

and to rimshott etc, after buying a TV is not the best time to ask is it any good.

moe

Ghost Train

highanddefined wrote:

Now, 'HD-Ready' has come to be labelled on anything that can display a resolution higher than 720x576. There are people out there who have bought 42" or 50" TVs out there with a big 'HD-Ready' badge on them that are only capable of displaying a picture-size or resolution of 1024x768. This is less than the average 20" computer monitor.

not exactly accurate, these are the requirements for products to use the logo

The HD Ready label is fully supported by Europe’s national broadcasters. Requirements for HD Ready include:
1)The minimum native resolution of the display (e.g. LCD, PDP) or display engine (e.g. DLP) is 720 physical lines in wide aspect ratio

2)The display device accepts HD input via:
Analogue YPbPr*, and
DVI or HDMI

3)HD capable inputs accept the following HD video formats:
1280x720 @ 50 and 60Hz progressive (“720p”), and
1920x1080 @ 50 and 60Hz interlaced (“1080i”)

The DVI or HDMI input supports content protection (HDCP)
* HD Ready display devices support analogue YPbPr (component) as a HD input format to allow full compatibility with today's HD video sources in the market. Support of the YPbPr signal should be through common industry standard connectors directly on the HD Ready display device or through an adaptor easily accessible to the consumer.

Also comparing to a computer screen isn't a fair comparision, as viewing distance is a major factor and for a computer screen is much less.

xax

Highanddefined,


I was about to buy a Pioneer Lcd from newegg.com and have fedex collect it and deliver it to me here in Dublin.

Having read a loads of stuff here on boards.ie about buying such an item from overseas it is stupid since there is so much hassle if anything goes wrong and the fact that most of the tvs from the USA are not PAN configured.

Can any of ye tell me of any good internet retailer here or (europe/with eu warranty)
who sell tVs at a good rate?


Finally and more importantly what type picture quality/resolution should I be looking to get. 1920 x 1080? bigger?

I want to get a TV which is bigger then 40", so I will be splashing out on this and want to get best quality and not fall for some dressed up mutton.(splashing out for me is between 1000 and 2000 euros not 4000 or more!!)

I have decided that I will be looking for a plasma as from what I have searched these are better then lcd's if in the bigger tv sizes. Bought have their pros and cons.

I will be using an xbox 360 on the set, which are better for the consoles? lcd or plasma?


any advice I would be greatful

keith_d99

Would recommend the Panasonic PV70 42inch plasma
Excellent quality picture - retails for about 1499 in your shops - Try www.directvalue.ie for price

mathias

I will be using an xbox 360 on the set, which are better for the consoles? lcd or plasma?

Seeing as its for a console , then LCD , the console may cause burn in on the plasma ( lots of static screens cause burn in ) , LCD's dont have that issue.

batman2000

rimshott wrote: »

I've just bought this tv:
http://www.consumer.philips.com/consumer/en/gb/consumer/cc/_productid_42PFL7662D_05_GB_CONSUMER/widescreen-flat-TV+42PFL7662D-05?proxybuster=Y2VFS1W52DBLVJ0RMRCSHQFHKFSESI5P

I haven't collected it yet, so i'm sure they'll let me change it.
Is it a good buy??
or what should i get instead? I paid E1400 for it.
I also bought a Philips dvd upscaler for E85 aswell which i haven't collected either.
Should i leave it Because i already have a philips dvd player and surround sound system.

What to do? I understood most of the OP'S post but you don't say if it's all a shambles or just false advertising?

Well the what the OP was raising was the mis-advertising of HD LCD TV's as the spec in yours (if you were to read it is :- 1920x1280p so in terms of HD resolution IT IS HD. Also the resonse time is good at 8ms (standard(, the brightness is also OK at 550 cd/m3 and your contrast ratio (dynamic) is also good at 4000:1. So yes, personally it is a well spec'd TV.

howamidifferent

/The state-of-the-art LCD screen technology has the full high-definition widescreen resolution of 1080 progressive lines, each with 1920 pixels. This allows the best possible picture quality for HD input signals with up to 1080 lines./

/ It can display 720p and 1080i signals at 50 and 60Hz. /

Now I dont know the TV, just reading the web link above but...
Seems to indicate it can accept a 1080p input but only outputs 1080i or am i missing something here....Surely this is not then "True HD" as you would expect it to be...

I mean wouldnt any reasonable person assume it should be able to ouput 1080p from the jargon on the web page or is this more subtle omissions to con / take advantage of the buyer...

mathias

True HD

Along with Full HD , etc. etc. is nonsense ,

The Wiki on HD says it as plain as it gets ,

HD is anything over 720 lines , if its over that its HD , True HD doesnt mean anything , some broadcasts are in 720p , downloadable content also , this is better on a native ( or closest to it ) set than a 1080p as the 1080p has to scale it , some broadcasts are 1080i , some content is 1080p , these would be better on a native 1080p set , again in theory because you dont have to scale.

Sky does 1080i , blu ray and HD DVD do 1080p , go on the net and you have a plethora of formats , try to get a set that handles them all well , but none of them are " True HD " , thats a BS marketing term along with Full HD etc. etc.

Heres the Wiki , this is true , anything else you get told will probably be marketing BS , and theres an unfortunate amount of it around.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HD_ready

See also the link for Full HD on this page and the comments about it , marketing speak is all that term is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Full_HD

The most expensive sets at the moment are 1920 x 1080 , and that will probably be the max resolution for a while in terms of TV broadcasts due to bandwidth limitations , but higher resolutions do exist albeit in specialist formats , so which one is True HD or Full HD ?

HD TV's can be stunning , but dont start to feel shortchanged if your set is not a 50 inch or bigger 1920 x 1080 , like I said , 720 is a fine picture and is no less true HD than 1080 , and may well suit your living conditions better , who wants a big monster of a TV in the sitting room if a smaller set fits the room better.