White German Shepherds Endorsed by Kennel Club

Vas_Guy

I've just been informed by a friend of mine who rescently purchased a White German Shepherd who is IKC reg and the colour is listed as Tan on the papers.

He contacted the Irish Kennel Club and they told him that White German Shepherds are endorsed not to be bred from by the IKC and therefore he cannot breed from her.

Yet there are plenty of people advertising registered White German Shepherd pups?

Does anybody know why the IKC endorsed White German Shepherds, its a shame as white shepherds are beautiful dogs and have a softer temperament than the coloured GSD.

peasant

Don't know the exact reasons for the IKC, but I guess they are the same as for the rest of the world:

POLITICS

The German Shepherd breed (developed in the 1880's bei Freiherr von Stephanitz) was a huge commercial success. It was the first breed with a big following and quickly spawned all sorts of breeders associations, clubs, etc.

There was (and is) a constant battle between the different organisations about the "correct" breed standard ..at some stage the colour white was ruled out internationally.
Mostly for appearance reasons, but also because the gene sequence that produced white dogs also caused deafness and other illnesses in some dogs.

As the "standard" GSD became ever more decrepit over the years (see the terribly sloped backline), some people remembered the "old" white lines and began to market them as the "healthy" and "traditional" option (one of the first ever GSD'S was white).

They are now "officially recognised" as the "American-Canadian", "Swiss-Canadian" or "Swiss" Shepherd.

As the whites have become fashionable they have fallen victim to their own succes and through overbreeding the recessive genes for deafness and other defects have spread throughout the population. Whites no longer are any "healthier" than standards.

Standard breeders organisations of course feel vindicated and continue to rule out whites from their breeding programmes.

Nala

The breeder must have written Tan instead of White for the sake of getting them registered.

rubyred

My friend has a white german shepherd bitch. She is gorgeous - a bit smaller than normal GSDs and very quiet. They bred her once as she had a perfect hip score etc and they knew of five people who wanted white GSDs (in case you thought they were puppy farmers!!). Anyways the IKC wouldn't let them have the puppies registered.

alexdenby6

is the black shepherd a different breed or just colour changes.

bushy...

peasant wrote:

As the "standard" GSD became ever more decrepit over the years (see the terribly sloped backline), some people remembered the "old" white lines and began to market them as the "healthy" and "traditional" option (one of the first ever GSD'S was white).

Yip , yet another breed f###ed up thanks to the "oh no his shoulder is 5mm too high" brigade.

deaddonkey

Vas_Guy wrote:

have a softer temperament than the coloured GSD.

i'd like some proof of this. mkthxbye

canislupus

Here is a good link which has a brief description of various types and lines of German shepherd Dog as well as some related breeds. It is fairly widely accepted that white german shepherds have softer temperaments and less drive than (some) other lines.
I agree with what has been said about conformation shows ruining the breed, a quick glance at the German 'high' lines and the American 'show' lines show how exaggerated they've become. In my opinion the Czech and the DDR (East Geman) lines represent what a Geman shepherd dog should be.

http://www.shawlein.com/The_Standard/13_Breed_Type/Breed_Types.html

peasant

canislupus wrote:

It is fairly widely accepted that white german shepherds have softer temperaments and less drive than (some) other lines.

that's got nothing to do with their colour, though ...just with the fact that whites were spared (due to exclusion from the standard) most of the breeding for aggression ("drive" as some people like to call it) and all of the "Schutzhund" crap that the tans have to undergo.

Here's a nice timeline in pictures that shows exactly how little today's GSD has in common with its ancestors ...nothing, really

http://www.dogstuff.info/gsd_history.html

peasant

In case anyone is interested in "real" German shepherd dogs, i.e. dogs that German shepherds (the few that are left) still use, can see a few examples here:

http://www.altdeutschehuetehunde.de/?id=10



That's the type of dog that I remember from my childhood days, when big wandering herds of sheep were driven through the outskirst of our town and past my parent's house, on the way from one grazing ground to another.

One shepherd, two dogs (one front, one rear) and several hundred sheep inbetween. Those dogs could work ! Independently or on command, clever, strong, with endurance for a whole day.
They'd have a modern GSD for breakfast

macshadow

peasant wrote:

that's got nothing to do with their colour, though ...just with the fact that whites were spared (due to exclusion from the standard) most of the breeding for aggression ("drive" as some people like to call it) and all of the "Schutzhund" crap that the tans have to undergo.

Here's a nice timeline in pictures that shows exactly how little today's GSD has in common with its ancestors ...nothing, really

http://www.dogstuff.info/gsd_history.html

Peasant,You need to learn what drive actually is. Every dog has drive regardless of breed like it or not. Every dog has fight/protection drive,prey drive and play drive,even the most placid dog you can think off,some will have more than others.
To think of your dogs energy as drive makes it much easier to understand your dog and keep it satisfied.
It's also no coincidence that most law enforcement gsd's are black in color some of them are completely black.
The schutzhund crap as you call it has saved the gsd breed as can be seen from your link where the dogs at the top of the link that were owned by Max von Stephanitz who practiced schutzhund can be compared to schutzhund dogs today unlike the dogs towards the bottom of your link.
There are some involved in schutzhund that have the hard man mentality and that really disgusts me.
I didn't understand or like schutzhund until the finer points were explained to me by a police k9 handler in the states where i first saw it.
The working or sport gsd is a very different dog than the showline gsd.
A high drive gsd will run ten miles with you and it'll only be getting warmed up.
Reserve judgement until you have met a high drive dog and seen how calm and well behaved they are.

peasant

sorry for straying off topic ...

But I have one major objection to Schutzhund training.
By all means select GSD's for breeding for their working ability. Let them run, let them jump, do obedience, search and rescue and whatever else.

But don't train them to bite people!

And before anyone comes along trying to convince me that the dog doesn't bite a person but the sleeve-thingy and that isn't tought to bite but rather to let go on command ...bullcrap!

You could train the dog to go for that sleeve thingy and let go again on command without a person actually wearing it.:D

As for your argument that the working GSD is differnt from the show GSD ...not in Germany. In order to get breeding certification, your GSD still has to pass all the tests, including Schutzhund.

The end result is neither "show dog" nor "sport or working dog" but a crippled possible biter.


oh ...as a PS

Don't worry, I have met a high drive dog. She's actually living with me ...a Terrier mix called Patch. She has "drive" dripping out her floppy ears

macshadow

Well that's exactly how it works it bites the sleeve,they call it civil drive.
Only a small percentage would be suitable for police work and would bite for real.
have a look at youtube you might change your mind.

peasant

Yes, but that's exactly the problem:

"civil drive" ...wtf is that supposed to be? You said it yourself ...all dogs have prey, hunt, chase, play and even sexual drives ..."civil" drive is not part of their natural make up

Fact is, they are tought to "go for" the person wearing the sleeve. In order to do that you have to condition them on the sleeve first. The sleeve is "prey" and they want to get it. Once they're sufficiently "keen" on the sleeve, a person starts to wear it. So the dog learns to overcome its natural respect for people and to attack them (because they are wearing the sleeve). Once the dog does that, the whole thing is taken one step further. The sleeve wearer pretends to attack the dog/defend themselves and the dog is not allowed to let go. Only when the handler gives the command, the dog is allowed to let go.

So, sleeve or no sleeve ...the dog is tought to attack people and to hang on.

Now ...you're trying to tell me that this is the point were they sort the wheat from the chaff ...the "civils" from the "professionals". Any dog that doesn't bite properly is classified as "civil" and can go home and the ones that do are possible police dogs?

Once again ...bullcrap!

The ones that would bite for real have just been conditioned on a sleeve and come the "real" situation might actually not know what to do because the "bad guy" isn't wearing the fuppin' sleeve.

And the ones that normally wouldn't bite (the ones that are supposed to be your ordinary family dog) might just get it wrong one day and take a hearty bite out of any arm that is waved in front of their face, whether there is a sleeve on it or not.