Mass or Electric picnic

robindch

scofflaw wrote:

I've already agreed on Mass with PDN, mildly drunk, with heckling.

I'll go with this too, but instead of heckling, why not set up a counter-mass down the other end of the church? Or a barbecue or something? Or what about a Greek-theater-style Chorus, passing comments every now and then on how things are going, rating the show and generally giving a bit of real-time feedback to the guy up front? I'm sure a few of them could use it.

Ciaran500

Tim Robbins wrote:

Silly. Next you'll be saying we better watch what we eat before we drive.

Food does change the perception of the world around, but not in a way that affects driving.

Tim Robbins

Electric Picnic

Ciaran500 wrote:

Food does change the perception of the world around, but not in a way that affects driving.

Yes, they aren't really comparable. Binge Drinking isn't even comparable to having a glass of wine.
I am talking about binge drinking.

Tim Robbins

Electric Picnic

robindch wrote:

I'll go with this too, but instead of heckling, why not set up a counter-mass down the other end of the church? Or a barbecue or something? Or what about a Greek-theater-style Chorus, passing comments every now and then on how things are going, rating the show and generally giving a bit of real-time feedback to the guy up front? I'm sure a few of them could use it.

I wouldn't be surprised if PDN would be on for some sort of debate / discussion between atheists and Christians as long as everyone was civil and well mannered.

PDN

Tim Robbins wrote:

I wouldn't be surprised if PDN would be on for some sort of debate / discussion between atheists and Christians as long as everyone was civil and well mannered.

In Hemant Mehta's book, I Sold My Soul on eBay, this leader in the Secular Student Alliance shares how he was invited to 'preach' to 3000 people in a Chicago Church. He engaged in a friendly dialogue with the Senior Pastor and both sides felt it was a positive experience.

Ciaran500

Tim Robbins wrote:

Yes, they aren't really comparable. Binge Drinking isn't even comparable to having a glass of wine.
I am talking about binge drinking.

Define binge drinking then.

This is the first time you have mentioned binge drinking btw.

Tim Robbins

Electric Picnic

Ciaran500 wrote:

Define binge drinking then.

This is the first time you have mentioned binge drinking btw.

Depends on the person. For most people 4+ beers for me 2+.
Kind Regards

Dades

Tim Robbins wrote:

Reality is reality. Whether it's a good thing is not the point. You either want reality sober for what it is, you wish to distort it because you cannot deal with it.

Herein lies the crux of why people are disagreeing with you.

You are stating that people either want reality sober, or distort it because they cannot deal with it. This may true in a fraction of cases, but the most part that is complete rubbish.

I want reality sober while I am in work today for obvious reasons. However I intend to have a few drinks tonight at a good mate's engagement party. Is this because I cannot deal with the reality of the party? I could happily attend the party without booze, but frankly I'm looking forward to swigging a few glasses of bubbly and the effect they are going to have on my brain.

Tim Robbins

Tim Robbins wrote:

I know some of these people, they think they know it all and all religion is stupid. They dumb it all down to religion V science and don't know much about either.

So you've moved on to alcohol vs sober...?

This sounds like the PI sobriety thread

Tim Robbins

Electric Picnic

bluewolf wrote:

So you've moved on to alcohol vs sober...?

This sounds like the PI sobriety thread

I just think people who slag off religion for being a crutch and binge drink (which is their crutch) is a case of glass houses and stones.
It's a bit like people who follow the premiership slagging people for watching reality tv.

Tim Robbins

Electric Picnic

The Atheist wrote:

I want reality sober while I am in work today for obvious reasons. However I intend to have a few drinks tonight at a good mate's engagement party. Is this because I cannot deal with the reality of the party? I could happily attend the party without booze, but frankly I'm looking forward to swigging a few glasses of bubbly and the effect they are going to have on my brain.

There's nothing wrong with that, and I doubt if someone wanted to nip outside and say a few prayers you would slag them either.
However, if you slagged that person (for their little crutch) while you are drinking your bubbly (your crutch) there is something silly about it.

carl_

The Atheist wrote:

...but frankly I'm looking forward to swigging a few glasses of bubbly and the effect they are going to have on my brain.

Tim Robbins wrote:

...while you are drinking your bubbly (your crutch)...

Ehh, maybe you can explain exactly how this changed from a statement of enjoyment to being a crutch?

Tim Robbins

Electric Picnic

carl_ wrote:

Ehh, maybe you can explain exactly how this changed from a statement of enjoyment to being a crutch?

Simple because a crutch can be enjoying but something enjoying may bot be a crutch.

Tim Robbins

Tim Robbins wrote:

Simple because a crutch can be enjoying but something enjoying may not be a crutch.

Yes. So how does enjoying something turn into you calling it a crutch.

Tim Robbins

Electric Picnic

bluewolf wrote:

Yes. So how does enjoying something turn into you calling it a crutch.

It doesn't turn into a crutch. It is a crutch and what's wrong with that?
Are you saying there is something wrong with people using a crutch here and there?

Tim Robbins

Tim Robbins wrote:

It doesn't turn into a crutch.

me wrote:

So how does enjoying something turn into you calling it a crutch.

?

TR wrote:

It is a crutch and what's wrong with that?

That's it? A glass of bubbly is definitively a crutch, no exceptions?

Are you saying there is something wrong with people using a crutch here and there?

Now what on earth are you on about?

Tim Robbins

Electric Picnic

bluewolf wrote:

?


That's it? A glass of bubbly is definitively a crutch, no exceptions?


Now what on earth are you on about?

The hard part is delinating exactly when it becomes a crutch. Are 5 glasses of bubbly a crutch? 20, or is it 0.1245.
I accept that is a weakness in my argument - it's very difficult to say when the consumption of drink is actually a crutch.

However, do you agree having a crutch is not necessarily a bad thing? It's slagging other people crutches when you fail to acknowlegde your own is the bad thing.

Your thoughts...

Dades

Your argument is starting weave like a drunk driver.

Scofflaw

There is no number of drinks that makes drink a crutch. When you become unable to have fun without drink, or unable to face life without drink, it is a crutch. Until that time it is an optional extra, no matter how much of it you drink.

Similarly, I suppose, if you can face life without religion, then religion can hardly be a crutch no matter how fervent you are about it. Of course, being atheists we are unlikely to accept that someone has found God for any other reason than sudden lameness...

cordially,
Scofflaw

Tim Robbins

Electric Picnic

Scofflaw wrote:

There is no number of drinks that makes drink a crutch. When you become unable to have fun without drink, or unable to face life without drink, it is a crutch. Until that time it is an optional extra, no matter how much of it you drink.

Similarly, I suppose, if you can face life without religion, then religion can hardly be a crutch no matter how fervent you are about it. Of course, being atheists we are unlikely to accept that someone has found God for any other reason than sudden lameness...

cordially,
Scofflaw

Well put. I think that if there was no drink at expensive picnic very few would want to go? Would you agree with that.

Ciaran500

I doubt too many would go if there was no music and only drinking aswell.

Dades

Tim Robbins wrote:

Well put. I think that if there was no drink at expensive picnic very few would want to go? Would you agree with that.

I'd agree with that. The drinking is part of the experience as far as the young crowd is concerned. Young revellers like their drinking. It doesn't mean they can't handle the gig without it - just that the fun element is lessoned enough to make it not worth going in their eyes. As you say - it's expensive.

Careful not to interchange binge-drinking with 'managed' social drinking. I think that was the flaw with your previous arguments.

Tim Robbins

Electric Picnic

The Atheist wrote:

Careful not to interchange binge-drinking with 'managed' social drinking. I think that was the flaw with your previous arguments.

I think Scofflaw found the flaw with it actually.
Binge drinking may not be a crutch as you might be doing it as an experiement but if you are doing any form of drinking (social or binge) because you can't do whatever you are doing without it, it is a crutch.
Anyone for a pint?

Scofflaw

The Atheist wrote:

I'd agree with that. The drinking is part of the experience as far as the young crowd is concerned. Young revellers like their drinking. It doesn't mean they can't handle the gig without it - just that the fun element is lessoned enough to make it not worth going in their eyes. As you say - it's expensive.

Would you go to a ceilidh with no drink? We used to go to a lot of them in Aberdeen, and maybe two-thirds were tea and water ceilidhs. They may have been, if anything, slightly more fun that way.

There's a sense, of course, in which drink is a crutch at such events. Fundamentally, most people go to social events because there will be members of the opposite sex there (this is why you give up going when you're married!). In turn, many people would hope that there will be drink, because they feel that they would be unable to talk to said members of the opposite sex without it (political demonstrations and religious meetings, on the other hand, have the bond of common purpose and mass activity, which has a very similar buzz).

cordially,
Scofflaw

Zillah

Ok...ok...


Tim, please define "crutch" in the sense you are using it.

Once that is done, please answer the following question: Is there any plausible way a person can choose to get mildly-to-very-drunk without it counting as a crutch according to your no doubt crystal clear definition above?

JC 2K3

Tim Robbins wrote:

Drink can't make the essence of something good or bad entertainment, it is simple a way of avoiding the true essense.

What if one enjoys the false essense?

And why is the "true" essense of life that which involves no drugs?

Tim Robbins

Electric Picnic

Zillah wrote:

Ok...ok...


Tim, please define "crutch" in the sense you are using it.

Once that is done, please answer the following question: Is there any plausible way a person can choose to get mildly-to-very-drunk without it counting as a crutch according to your no doubt crystal clear definition above?

I think through this debate we have arrived quite a good definition of it: a crutch is something that helps people do something they cannot otherwise do.
In the context of this dicussion the crutch is something with an emotional connation not a physical one.
Happy?

Tim Robbins

Electric Picnic

JC 2K3 wrote:

What if one enjoys the false essense?

I don't have a problem with that, unless they try to tell me it's not a false essence.

And why is the "true" essense of life that which involves no drugs?

Because you see something for what it really is in the naturalistic world.

JC 2K3

What would you say to the idea that everything has multiple naturalistic essenses depending on the state of mind/consciousness of the observer?

Zillah

Tim Robbins wrote:

Happy?

No, you only responded to half my post. And it was such a simple post too. I'll ask again to make it simple:

In your opinion, are there any circumstances where someone could get mildly-to-very drunk without it counting as a crutch?