Rangers & Celtic

OhNoYouDidn't

millersangel wrote:

just saying that even if it was, coming from a fan i have no doubt sings about the RA etc etc its a bit rich.

thats quite an assumption, and an offensive one to make.

lets recap on last night.

1: someone said that gers make nazi salutes while flying israeli flags

2: odonnell aggresively denied it

3: a photo of the said incident was produced.

4: odonnell claimed the salutes arent nazi salutes at all but 'red hand salutes'

5: he was then asked to explain what these 'red hand' salutes are

6: he chose not to and then started calling me a bigot for asking a resonable question

7: odonnell, who for the record i have no doubt isnt a nazi or even approaching it, then decides to gloss over Rangers fans historical far right wing links.

8: now we have the IRA and Nazi's being compared.

Surreal stuff.

Fwaggle

OhNoYouDidn't wrote:

5: he was then asked to explain what these 'red hand' salutes are.

What exactly do you need explained? Don't tell me you don't know what the red hand thing is all about.

Your hypocrisy is hilarous btw. Rangers fans are all nazi loving bigots, but God forbid anyone mentions the 'Ra heads you'll find at the other side of Glasgow.

There are bigots and idiots on both sides - don't tar us all with the same brush because it makes you feel better about hating the "huns".

:rolleyes:

odonnell

i was asked to explain something which ive already said i cant explain - since im not a protestant and would never make ANY such gestures. Im telling you thats what theyre doing, not WHY theyre doing it....

how thick are you mate? away and learn to read pal.

Gillie

As O'Donnell said they are "red hand" salutes.
I really don't see what the fuss is about.

The bigots on both sides are as bad as each other.

Mr Alan

actually the course of events actually read. . . .

1.someone said the rangers fans made nazi salutes

2.o'donnell said they didn't

3.said photo was produced

4.o'donnell informed us that the photo actually shows rangers fans doing some red hand gesture or something.

5.you said it wasnt, that this was typical ''hun'' behaviour and a couple of other equally insulting, sweeping comments

6. O'Donnell put you on his ignore list.

7.i criticised you for slating a regular/valued poster on this site with nothing to back it up except a photo which he has explained (not defended)

8.you were informed that boths sets of fans were as bad as eachother imo

9.you said that rangers were worse, celtic fans no longer sing anti-english/prodestant tunes or IRA tunes.

10.I posted up videos as recently as your friendly against Newcastle of celtic fans singing said songs.

11.you chalked that up as Celtic fans having a bit of crack on the way to or at matches.

your hypocricy really is beyond belief

odonnell

guys, cheers for the backup like... but ill tell you, the way this thread has gone isnt a surprise to me, im sure it isnt to yourselves either.

id personally recommend just letting it die as no good can ever come out of this sort of thing. Ignore lists are great for stopping the blood getting up

OhNoYouDidn't

I said Celtic fans AT MATCHES can no longer sing those songs. 'said songs' at Newcastle in the video you posted, the fields of athenry? :rolleyes:

if that song has the moral equivelance of nazi salutes in isreal i despair for some of you.

'red hand salutes'? for the love of god. how has this 'explaination' gained any creedence. they are nazi salutes given some contrived name that no-one else uses or has any historical context. and i'm a bigot for asking someone to elaborate on what these are and why they are used exclusively by Rangers fans?

Celtic fans are bigots because Rangers fans have an inplausible explaination for their actions. You really couldnt make it up.

Mr Alan

implausible explanation? why because you say so? o'donnells explanation is more than plausible to me.

the fact that they were chanting IRA during the Fields Of Athenry is the point i was getting at, you are just probably so used to it being sung this way that it doesn't even register.

as recommended, i'm going to bow out of this conversation, like hitting my head against a brick wall.

Fwaggle

millersangel wrote:

as recommended, i'm going to bow out of this conversation, like hitting my head against a brick wall.

LOL, I think I'll join ye. I was gonna write a reply, but really, what's the point?

_blank_

Low lie the fields of Athenry
Where once we watched small the free birds fly - hey baby let the free birds fly
Our love was on the wing - Sinn Fein
There were dreams and songs to sing - IRA
It's so lonely round the fields of Athenry

This is the reason I hate 21st, weddings and any other party.

It is clearly idiotic chanting, and yes, it does mention the IRA.

If Celtic fans, as shown in the video, engage in this, then they are engaged in IRA Chanting. Simple.

OhNoYouDidn't

millersangel wrote:

implausible explanation? why because you say so? o'donnells explanation is more than plausible to me.

what explaination? he has claimed they are something no-one had heard of before the Scottish press got on their case over what they got up to in Tel Aviv.

But the bigger issue here is that a Celtic fan cannot criticise the behaviour of a section of the Gers support without being labeled a bigot and having to put up with 'you are at it too'. It never happens the other way.

And you clearly have an agenda if you can try and directly compare the IRA to the Nazi's.

Kanney

I support them cos they have green on their jersey tops and i have green in my garden.

Mr Alan

sorry mate. . . .wat could my agenda possibly be?

_blank_

Kanney wrote:

I support them cos they have green on their jersey tops and i have green in my garden.

OhNoYouDidn't

millersangel wrote:

sorry mate. . . .wat could my agenda possibly be?

I have no idea, you are either on a wind up or if you believe that, on the extremes of political opinion. Its an appalingly offensive comaprison to make and belittles what the Nazi's did.

My final word. Sections of the Rangers fanbase have a history of connections with the BNP, C18 and loyalist paramilitaries. They routinely make nazi style salutes in Parkhead and most ominiously, Tel Aviv.

odonnell then tries to claim this is an innocent gesture called a 'red hand salute', which he declines to explain what it is and where it comes from. and laughably, he gets support for this lame attempt.

Seriously, calling Rangers fans on their fascist songbook and accompanying hand gestures does not make me a bigot. If you want to debate the Celtic songs, fine. But not in the context of 'Rangers have been caught doing something bold, lets find Celtic fans at something and lump them all in as the same'. Its dishonest and lazy.

_blank_

I'll tell you what's also dishonest.

Trying to claim that Celtic fans are angels and the team from across the city are the devil incarnate.

Both teams, in fact ALL teams, have an idiot section in their fanbase.

Fair enough, one club's may be bigger than another's. But that isn't the point.

Celtic fans have a history of singing bigoted crap at their matches aswell, and just because in recent times it has been banned at Parkhead, doesn't mean it doesn't still go on at other grounds. Or will you deny this?

Get a grip and open your eyes will you.

OhNoYouDidn't

DesF wrote:

I'll tell you what's also dishonest.

Trying to claim that Celtic fans are angels and the team from across the city are the devil incarnate.

Both teams, in fact ALL teams, have an idiot section in their fanbase.

Fair enough, one club's may be bigger than another's. But that isn't the point.

Celtic fans have a history of singing bigoted crap at their matches aswell, and just because in recent times it has been banned at Parkhead, doesn't mean it doesn't still go on at other grounds. Or will you deny this?

Get a grip and open your eyes will you.

I never claimed that Celtic fans are angels. There has been progress made on the singing front, but I would question what in the Celtic repetoir is 'bigoted' but thats another debate.

Rangers issues are deeper than just a few idiots. There are systemic issues there, playing Simply the Best over the tannoy at old firms etc. And thats before we look at their historical sectarian policies, which Celtic never had.

But Celtic fans should be able to object to nastiness from Rangers fans without having 'but you are just as bad' thrown at them. And ditto for Gers.

_blank_

OhNoYouDidn't wrote:

Simply the Best

:eek:

I call you when I need you, my heart's on fire
You come to me, come to me wild and wild
When you come to me
Give me everything I need
Give me a lifetime of promises and a world of dreams
Speak a language of love like you know what it means
And it can't be wrong
Take my heart and make it strong baby

You're simply the best, better than all the rest
Better than anyone, anyone I've ever met
I'm stuck on your heart, and hang on every word you say
Tear us apart, baby I would rather be dead

In your heart I see the star of every night and every day
In your eyes I get lost, I get washed away
Just as long as I'm here in your arms
I could be in no better place

You're simply the best, better than all the rest
Better than anyone, anyone I've ever met
I'm stuck on your heart, and hang on every word you say
Tear us apart, baby I would rather be dead

Each time you leave me I start losing control
You're walking away with my heart and my soul
I can feel you even when I'm alone
Oh baby, don't let go

As opposed to this ditty, which I presume is still sung in Parkhead, correct me if I'm wrong.

Hail Hail, the Celts are here,
What the hell do we care,
What the hell do we care,
Hail Hail, the Celts are here,
What the hell do we care now...

For it's a grand old team to play for,
For it's a grand old team to see,
And if you know the history,
Its enough to make your heart ,
GO-OH-OH-OH! {alternatively, 9-In-A-Row and 'Go **** the Rangers}

We don't care what the animals say,
What the hell do we care,
For we only know,
That there's gonna be a show,
And the Glasgow Celtic will be there.

Sure it's the best darn team in Scotland/Europe
and the players they are grand,
We support the Celtic
'cos they are the finest in the land we love them.
We'll be there to give the Bhoys a cheer
When the League flag flies,
And the cheers go up 'cos we know the Scottish Cup
is coming home to rest at Paradise.

How the hell anyone can take offence to a Tina Turner song, for anything other than musical taste, is beyond me.

God forbid a team should say they are the best. Oh the shame of it all.

OhNoYouDidn't

DesF wrote:

:eek:


As opposed to this ditty, which I presume is still sung in Parkhead, correct me if I'm wrong.



How the hell anyone can take offence to a Tina Turner song, for anything other than musical taste, is beyond me.

God forbid a team should say they are the best. Oh the shame of it all.

Des, with respect, you have missed the point. 'Simply the Best' in this context refers to religion and ethnicity, not football.

If you dont understand the basic context of that song and why it causes widespread offence, should you be contributing to this debate in a patronising way? Google is free mate.

Mr Alan

ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

OhNoYouDidn't

millersangel wrote:

ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

probably the most intellegent thing you have contributed to this debate.

_blank_

OhNoYouDidn't wrote:

Des, with respect, you have missed the point. 'Simply the Best' in this context refers to religion and ethnicity, not football.

Erm...please, I have studied the lyrics of the song for a good fifteen minutes now, and I cannot make this jump of logic. Perhaps you could make it for me?

OhNoYouDidn't wrote:

If you dont understand the basic context of that song and why it causes widespread offence, should you be contributing to this debate in a patronising way?

What?

Maybe you could educate me then, so I may continue.

Or perhaps you don't, or can't.

Is that it?

OhNoYouDidn't wrote:

Google is free mate.

I know it is, but do you take personal offence to the song being played, or are you scandalised on behalf of other Celtic fans?

If you take personal offence, perhaps you could explain that? Rather than making sweeping statements that, so far, have no basis in fact.

OhNoYouDidn't wrote:

But Celtic fans should be able to object to nastiness from Rangers fans without having 'but you are just as bad' thrown at them. And ditto for Gers.

But this is exactly what you are doing.


I'm still baffled as to how or why Simply the Best is now a religiously bigoted song. It defies belief.

Fwaggle

OhNoYouDidn't wrote:

Des, with respect, you have missed the point. 'Simply the Best' in this context refers to religion and ethnicity, not football.

Mr Alan

OhNoYouDidn't wrote:

probably the most intellegent thing you have contributed to this debate.

sssshhhhhhhh! i meant to be ignoring you!!!

if you keep saying mental stuff like ''Simply The Best'' is in reference to the religious superiority i might just have to start thinking you are just taking the piss on here?!!?!

Its a song, to them, about their team being better than yours! Just like your ''hail, hail, the celts are here''. Thought that was obvious to anyone?! maybe your paranoia has warped your judgement somewhat?

PauloMN

I've watched by the sideline for a while but I'm going to do a Strachan and walk onto the pitch.

I have to agree with a certain amount of what OhNoYouDidn't says. The salutes that a section of the Rangers support perform are clearly Nazi salutes, and to try to and dress them up as some sort of Red Hand related salute is folly IMO. No offence O'Donnell, I think you're a good contributer around here but I have to disagree with you on those salutes. They know how they look, they've been doing them for a long time, they know how people view them and they persist with them.

As for Simply the Best though, I think OhNoYouDidn't is reading too much into that. Personally, the only thing I find offensive about that song is that it's ****, and I disliked it long before Rangers played it on their tannoy.

On the IRA stuff - I'm glad to see it's pretty much gone from inside the stadiums, both home and away which I think is great work on Celtic's part and on the part of the decent fans. It still is heard a bit outside the grounds being sung by arseholes, which is a shame.

odonnell

PauloMN wrote:

I've watched by the sideline for a while but I'm going to do a Strachan and walk onto the pitch.

I have to agree with a certain amount of what OhNoYouDidn't says. The salutes that a section of the Rangers support perform are clearly Nazi salutes, and to try to and dress them up as some sort of Red Hand related salute is folly IMO. No offence O'Donnell, I think you're a good contributer around here but I have to disagree with you on those salutes. They know how they look, they've been doing them for a long time, they know how people view them and they persist with them.

As for Simply the Best though, I think OhNoYouDidn't is reading too much into that. Personally, the only thing I find offensive about that song is that it's ****, and I disliked it long before Rangers played it on their tannoy.

On the IRA stuff - I'm glad to see it's pretty much gone from inside the stadiums, both home and away which I think is great work on Celtic's part and on the part of the decent fans. It still is heard a bit outside the grounds being sung by arseholes, which is a shame.

Thats fair enough Paul, however my points still stand in that in my opinion nobody in their right mind in Scotland, rangers fan or not, would ever freely perform a nazi salute. That photo could be one of a hundred and the same would still apply - in my experience as a rangers fan from glasgow (which i think is a far more powerful basis for argument than not) I have NEVER come across a gers fan with nazi tendancies - thatd be insulting to everyone around and i just WONT believe its a nazism thing. Thats a ridiculous accusation bud.... i simply cant accept it you know?

Now...again for posterity - im not saying why they do what they do... im merely saying WHAT they do, and its not nazism.

OhNoYouDidn't

DesF wrote:

Erm...please, I have studied the lyrics of the song for a good fifteen minutes now, and I cannot make this jump of logic. Perhaps you could make it for me?


What?

Maybe you could educate me then, so I may continue.

Or perhaps you don't, or can't.

Is that it?


I know it is, but do you take personal offence to the song being played, or are you scandalised on behalf of other Celtic fans?

If you take personal offence, perhaps you could explain that? Rather than making sweeping statements that, so far, have no basis in fact.


But this is exactly what you are doing.


I'm still baffled as to how or why Simply the Best is now a religiously bigoted song. It defies belief.

Again, a simple internet search will show you that certain phrases about the Pope and Catholics in general are inserted by the Rangers support. Nil by mouth have requested Rangers stop playing it as the context is sectarian. Just because you dont know the subtlties of the Old Firm really doenst mean you have to try and be a smart arse.

Mr Alan

Did i not see Ally Mc Coist pleading on TV with certain elements among their fans to cut out the sectarian songs????

_blank_

OhNoYouDidn't wrote:

Again, a simple internet search will show you that certain phrases about the Pope and Catholics in general are inserted by the Rangers support

So, Rangers supporters inserting phrases about the pope and Catholics is unacceptable while

OhNoYouDidn't wrote:

3: celtic fans singing the fields of athenry

And inserting the IRA parts is nothing? Which I in fact find more offence to. I'm not a Catholic, so Rangers anti-Catholicism/Poe stuff means nothing to me. But sure, pray for my soul next time you go to mass.

Hypocrite much?

OhNoYouDidn't wrote:

Just because you dont know the subtlties of the Old Firm

OK so, I'll ask you again. Tell me about it.

OhNoYouDidn't wrote:

really doenst mean you have to try and be a smart arse.

Well if you won't answer my questions, there's nothing else to do is there?

All I'm seeing is a Celtic fan with double standards, who is making statements about Rangers supporters with no basis in fact, that he is willing to show.

odonnell

millersangel wrote:

Did i not see Ally Mc Coist pleading on TV with certain elements among their fans to cut out the sectarian songs????

Yes but theres a point of note there - the sectarian 'songs' were largely cut out last season after the UEFA fines, whilst Rangers an Celtic run their respective campaigns. However, the main problem in Ibrox and at away games isnt the songs being sung now, its the 'add-ons' where in between verses some fans like to sing FTPITV (f*ck the pop in the vatican) etc etc etc...

So thats its own problem and unfortunately those add-ons are added ONTO traditional Rangers songs. Ally came out and pleaded for that to stop, as rightly, the SFA and UEFA are watching closely.

In a stadium with 54000 Rangers fans, as it turns out - only about 200 are still singing the add-ons, and NOBODY sings the banned 'songs' anymore (like i say those were taken care of last season).

So i mean, it IS working like... and both clubs have spent a lot of money and a lot of time erradicating it. Many fans feel that UEFAs approach of self policing though, whilst possibly preferable, is slightly unrealistic as lets face it - 200 guys singing songs are hardly going to listen to people they see as being overly PC - ("its ma right tae sing what i want and youre no gonnae f*ckin stop me") .... y'know?

An interesting point i raised once upon a time was that, in the stadiums up and down the country they can adhere to a smoking ban, but cant stop themselves singing FTP.

PauloMN

odonnell wrote:

An interesting point i raised once upon a time was that, in the stadiums up and down the country they can adhere to a smoking ban, but cant stop themselves singing FTP.

Maybe smoking should be reintroduced - more time smoking, less time singing.

odonnell

PauloMN wrote:

Maybe smoking should be reintroduced - more time smoking, less time singing.

its quite absurd though when you think of the situation on a whole...it does seem like theres more of a witch hunt attached to the singing of certain songs and add-ons than there was when the smoking ban was introduced. I mean... im quite offended at someone not caring that they could put me in hospital by smoking in front of me (asthma is a bitch), but i couldnt care a monkeys what songs you sing nor what your politics are.

Seems like the world is all backward.

ziggy

This post has been deleted.

Mr Alan

i think Rangers are simply pointing out to fans that the club and fans are the ones who will suffer if they keep it up, be it by not winning the league or getting into Europe etc

odonnell

yeh... they are actually approaching it from a point of view of zero tolerance because it IS wrong mate.... that just wasnt reflected in what i typed there.. im no press agent

[edit] maybe not much to read into here but its worth a look anyway for those who are interested - this is the sort of thing thats been happening at Rangers over the last few years http://www.rangers.premiumtv.co.uk/page/FollowWithPride/0,,5,00.html

Im aware both celtic and rangers spend a lot of time and money promoting the pride over prejudice and kick racism out of football campaigns too... but unfortunately they cant tell a society how to live and the problems run deeper than a football match - all they can do is look after their own house and i think theyve done that extremely effectively.

KdjaCL

jebus this crap always end this way.


kdjac