Greatest Irishman: Michael Collins or Eamon de Valera?

Ruen

Eamon de Valera

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

No that's not true. Churchill promised consultation with the unionists on unity. It was a very vague promise from Churchill which de Valera knew would be strongly opposed by unionists and thus unworkable.

Check out anything on Plan W and you'll see there were secret discussions between us and the British about giving back the North if we joined the war effort against Germany, so please educate yourself on these matters before making such silly statements.

K-9

Ruen wrote:

Oh really, well good for you.

You didn't answer the question. Do you believe Ireland should be completely neutral or not on Shannon?

It is very relevant to the neutrality question DeV faced.

Ruen wrote:

We knew they were invading Poland.

Of course, I'm sure he took this into account as well as various other reasons to be neutral. I take you now accept that DeV did not know about the 6 million butchered when he was deciding neutrality. Revisionism at its worst. IMO, I always try and look at circumstances at the time, not what eventually happened as unlike us, DeV did not have the benefit of hindsight.

Ruen wrote:

You know the British were willing to hand over the North if we joined the allies in WW2 and let themselves and the Americans use our ports, plus we would have done very well economically if that had happened.

Check out anything on Plan W and you'll see there were secret discussions between us and the British about giving back the North if we joined the war effort against Germany, so please educate yourself on these matters before making such silly statements.

Did Craig know about this? I'm sure he would just have agreed:rolleyes: . DeV knew this wasn't deliverable and didn't trust Churchill on it. Churchill was suggesting things that DeV knew he couldn't deliver on.

I think DeV realised it was a silly proposal and unworkable. I'm sure he would have loved the North to be back but he had to weigh up Irelands best interests in many regards.

Ruen

Eamon de Valera

Seanies32 wrote:

You didn't answer the question. Do you believe Ireland should be completely neutral or not on Shannon?

I'll tell you what Seanies32, you go ahead and start a new thread about who thinks what about Shannon and I might be bothered to post in it...or not.
I'm finished here it's clear who the greatest irishman is.

K-9

Ruen wrote:

I'll tell you what Seanies32, you go ahead and start a new thread about who thinks what about Shannon and I might be bothered to post in it...or not.
I'm finished here it's clear who the greatest irishman is.

So you didn't bother replying..hmmm..... Did somebody not agree with your opinion and argued against them?

On Shannon, besides the neutrality point which is very big, its amazing how certain political parties say Ireland should be neutral on it but condemn DeV's position on neutrality!

DeV Has far more opponents than Collins with their own agendas. People who think the Rising was wrong, War of Independence was wrong, Civil War, being Anti Treaty, Internment of the IRA, Neutrality was wrong etc. etc. A lot of these people can't forget their own agenda and appraise issues on an individual basis.

IMO, DeV was wrong on being anti Treaty but later seen it was a tool to be used. Was right on neutrality but was too conservative on many issues which led to him succeeding to Lemass too late.

It's unfair to compare him to Collins. Who knows what Collins would have done? Collins did not have to face most of those issues.

K-9

Ruen its clear from your last few posts, that you don't have anything worthwhile to add anyway.

I'm sorry if DeV didn't know about the 6 million victims but its mad to bring it up when nobody knew what was going to happen.So DeV was supposed to take this into consideration in 1939? DeVelera was a very deep political and diplomatic thinker, something he was criticised for. He did not decide on neutrality lightly.

You're posts have been answered and bettered and you have no answers to them

Rossibaby

Eamon de Valera

i voted collins becasue he was a hero and de valera was anything but....at the same time wolfetone,james connolly,bobby sands would all rank highly.my personal choice would be connolly,even though he wasnt born and bred here he did more for this country than anyone.

K-9

Ruen wrote:

I'll tell you what Seanies32, you go ahead and start a new thread about who thinks what about Shannon and I might be bothered to post in it...or not.
I'm finished here it's clear who the greatest irishman is.

You don't have to answer. IYO DeV was wrong on neutrality so you support Shannon. Unless of course you think its ok to change your beliefs and take account of circumstances, something DeV was criticised for.

Borneo Fnctn

Eamon de Valera

neil_hosey wrote:

James Connolly...

Then Jim Larkin.

..Dev was born in America.

Jim Larkin was born in Liverpool...

comewatmay

Greatest irishman was Steve Collins the boxer.What a legend

kraggy

/Woman.

Bibi Baskin.

walrusgumble

Ruen wrote:

Oh really, well good for you.




We knew they were invading Poland.




You know the British were willing to hand over the North if we joined the allies in WW2 and let themselves and the Americans use our ports, plus we would have done very well economically if that had happened.

churchill made that "its now or never, a nation once again" remark as off the cuff - he would have had to answere to the house of commons and more importantly the lords.


naive. it is not as simple as that. the unionist made it very clear in 1912 that they would restort to force against any unit that rocked the status quo. do you honestly think craig would have tolerated this?

as for doing econmically well, thats all fine and well but people's lives would have been lost like the air raids in derry and belfast.

walrusgumble

Rosita wrote:

If in practice the treaty delegation did indeed have full powers why did they revert to Dublin at all?

Some people pounce on the literal meaning of the word "plenipotentiary" as an excuse for the treaty delegation but the reality of how things transpired at the time (reverting back to Dublin) is far more indicative of the reality of the time. And Griffth and Collins acknowledged that they were never regarded as having actual plenipotentiary status by the British.

The plenipotentiary status is at best ambiguous and the explicit instruction was to have any final treaty given the go-ahead by Dublin which drives a coach and four through the suggestion that they had actual and full plenipotentiary powers in practice.

yes you are right. but who's fault was it only de valera. the negotiators were sent with the barest of briefs and had no plans drafted and discussed. de valera knew from june, what would be negotiated yet he failed to brief his people. even when he was explaining his external association theory he had most of dail eireann in puzzlement.

The Al Lad

Eamon de Valera

Eamon DeValera was a yank skinny pencil nosed mother fcuker

Mick Collins all the way fella's