Licence carrying

LOTTOWINNER

I was stopped yesterday evening at a Garda checkpoint(half mile from my house), when he noticed my air-rifle in the back seat, they informed me that because I hadn't my gun-licence with me( it was at home) that I had comitted an offence of carrying an un-licenced firearm.
He also informed me that he could confiscate the gun.
I told him that I have had guns for over 20 years and I never carry my gun licence, I should add that I never shoot out side a 5 mile radius of were I live. He phoned thru' my gun details and everything checked out.

My question is, am I the only person who doesn't carry their licence with them?

alan123

You should have it in your car at least. He can take the gun from you. I bring it to save hassle when a passing motorist calls the Guards because they saw a suspicious man in cammo with a gun climing through a ditch. Its inevitable and I want as little grief as possible when it does happen!!

Did you win the lotto???

rrpc

LOTTOWINNER wrote:

I was stopped yesterday evening at a Garda checkpoint(half mile from my house), when he noticed my air-rifle in the back seat, they informed me that because I hadn't my gun-licence with me( it was at home) that I had comitted an offence of carrying an un-licenced firearm.

You weren't carrying an unlicensed firearm. You have a licence for it. There is actually no law that states you should carry your licence with the firearm, it's just good sense to do so if you are travelling with the firearm in case you are stopped and saves a lot of hassle which you obviously encountered.

Some people carry their license in the same case as the firearm. I myself don't think this is such a good idea because if someone stole the firearm they would also have the licence for it and that could be worse trouble for you.

As a general rule, it's a good idea to have the license if you are travelling some distance, but I would leave it to you to decide when you should and shouldn't need to. There's certainly no case to be made in court against you.

Flying

First of all whoever the Garda maybe he needs to check his facts as he is wrong on all counts.

Also where exactly did this happen, I see your in Louth as in Dundalk I had this crap a few years ago when both my father and I will heading on Foot to hunt with weapons in gunslips and were stopped by an over zealous police car enroute to our safe hunting area were we had permission to hunt.

They backed off immediately when my father identified both myself and him as members of the army.

I would not worry and also I have never carried my license with me as it is not practical, just my foreshore permit.

rrpc

alan123 wrote:

You should have it in your car at least. He can take the gun from you.

He can't if you have a licence. The best thing is to memorise your pulse id and quote it to the Garda in cases where you are stopped. I'd have a mortal terror of losing the damn thing or having it stolen so as a general rule I would have it in the car (I travel a lot to competitions), but you have the right to show up at a station to produce it if necessary.

Certainly your pulse id should be enough. They can radio it in to their local to check you out.

LOTTOWINNER

cheers Lads for the reply, by the way Alan123, All I won was a scratch card!!!

I prefer to keep well within the law, so I don't want to "get on the wrong side" of the law.
Maybe I'll do a few photo copies and leave them in the car, I was a bit p***ed off at the time.

And it was near Kilsaran, flying

Thanks again!!

foxhunter

I always carry the licence in the jeep as i do a lot of lamping for various farmers .They ring me i go out and sort the fox population for them but some of the places i go im a stranger to all the locals around .
So i park up in a gateway go for a walk and come back to the jeep and the local guard is waiting .
Then the farmer steps out and says oh its yourself i forgot you were coming .
This is after ive spent half an hour explaning what im doing there and who i am even after showing all the relevant paperwork .
Imagine how long it would take without it.

alan123

Now call me a stick in the mud, but Ill just carry a copy of my licence and insurance rather than open this can o worms......



(2) A member of the Garda Síochána or an authorised person may, if he has reasonable grounds for suspecting that a person has committed an offence under Part II or under section 45, 47, 51, 52 or 53 of this Act, at all reasonable times stop any person who is suspected by him of being in any way concerned in the offence and require the person to give his name and address and to declare and, if such member or authorised person, as the case may be, considers it necessary, to produce on demand for examination any specimen of fauna or flora or any part or product of any such specimen or any thing which is mentioned in subsection (7) of this section, which is in the person's possession and such member or authorised person may seize and detain any specimen or part or product of a specimen or any thing so produced which appears to him to be something which might be required as evidence in proceedings for an offence under this Act.


7) The things referred to in subsection (2) of this section are a firearm, trap, snare, net, line, hook, arrow, dart or spear, or a similar device, instrument or missile calculated or likely to cause death or bodily injury to any wild bird or wild mammal coming in contact with it, birdlime or any substance of a like nature, poisonous, poisoned or stupefying bait, tracer shot or a gun or container mentioned in section 33 (2) of this Act, and a decoy or electrical or other instrument, device or appliance mentioned in section 35 (1) or 39 of this Act.

Furthermore.....

(2) A member of the Garda Síochána or an authorised person who has reasonable grounds for suspecting that a person has committed an offence under any provision of the Wildlife Acts, 1976 and 2000, may, at all reasonable times, stop and search any person who is suspected by such member or authorised person, as the case may be, of being in any way concerned in the offence and require the person to give his name and address and to declare and, if such member or authorised person, as the case may be, considers it necessary to produce on demand for examination—

(a) any specimen of fauna, flora, fossils or minerals or any part, product or derivative of any such specimen, or

(b) any licence or permission granted by the Minister under the Wildlife Acts, 1976 and 2000 (including any certificate deemed, pursuant to section 29(5) of this Act, to be a licence so granted), or

(c) in the case of a person who is resident in a Member State of the European Community other than the State, any European Firearms Pass duly issued to such person to which paragraphs (4) and (5) of Regulation 7 of the European Communities (Acquisition and Possession of Weapons and Ammunition) Regulations, 1993 (S.I. No. 362 of 1993), relate or any other permit, licence, authorisation or other document duly issued by a national competent authority of such a Member State, or

rrpc

And call me pernickety too but all that is referring to is the wildlife act and offences carried out under said act. If you are driving in your car with your firearm, you cannot reasonably be suspected of carrying out such an offence.

The production part of that refers to a permit to hunt wildlife which in some cases could be your firearms cert, but not all.

The important part of all that is that at no stage does it require the immediate production of a firearms cert for carrying a firearm in a vehicle which is what the OP was talking about.

I have said that it may be prudent to have your cert in the car. I just don't agree with carrying it with your firearm.

alan123

Alls the guy has to say is that he "suspects" you were "attempting" to commit an offence. Its not worth the hassle! I certainly wont be argueing with the guy on the roadside about the finer points of the Wildlife Act and the definition of a licence. Theres a lot to be said for the ol "Fair enough Guard, there you go, and heres my insurance to boot, have a nice day!"

If you were the Guard and a guy pulled up at a checkpoint with a semi automatic shotgun in the boot 1000 rounds of ammo a balaclava and cammo jacket would you be letting him go because he tells you the finer points of the Wildlife Act?!!!!!

FLAG

Powers of members of Gárda Síochána. 22.—(1) Any member of the Gárda Síochána may demand from any person whom he observes or believes to be in possession of, using, or carrying a firearm or any ammunition, the production of his firearm certificate and if such person fails to produce and permit such member to read a firearm certificate authorising him to have possession of, use, or carry (as-the case may require) such firearm or ammunition, such member of the Gárda Síochána may unless such person shows that he is entitled by law to have possession of, use, or carry (as the case may require) at that time and in that place such firearm or ammunition without having a firearm certificate therefor demand from such person his name and address.

(2) If any person, on demand being made to him under this section by a member of the Gárda Síochána, refuses to give to such member his name and address or gives a name or address which is false or misleading in any material particular, he shall be guilty of an offence under this section and shall be liable on summary conviction thereof to a fine not exceeding ten pounds.

Bottom line is that unless you are suspected of a firearms offence all the Gardai can take from you is your name and address.

However to avoid any confusion and the recurrent ignorance of the Gardai of the Firearms Acts it would be prudent to carry your firearms certificate if you are carrying your firearm no matter where you are, after all the certificate is only a piece of paper that can be copied lots of times...........get a grip and carry your certificate to avoid confusion....................

Now all that being said why would anyone carry an exposed firearm (even an air-rifle) in the back of their car on a public road!!!!

The general public including the Gardai are not all that up to speed with firearms, in a way I suppose "lottowinner" was lucky to be stopped by uniformed (if uninformed) Gardai and not some of the armed variety who might of taken a different view, a dregree of common sense clearly would be to carry any firearm at least out of sight!

Attached were recomendations publised by SSAI in 2005. This is really about a bit of kop on and not if it is in the powers of the gardai to seize a firearm if the person carrying it cannot produce a piece of paper!

kowloon

Dont carry the original, i carried mine in one of those A4 plastic wallets, got it wet and it disintegrated, luckily it was near renewal.

Sparks

FLAG wrote:

Bottom line is that unless you are suspected of a firearms offence all the Gardai can take from you is your name and address.

I wouldn't push that - the Firearms and Offensive Weapons Act sets things up so that the above distinction is in practical effect meaningless, since mere possession of a firearm in a public place can legally be argued by a Garda as being an offence under that act, and no warrant is needed to then make an arrest. Sure, when you get to court, it's all easily straightened out, but that's a lot of hassle and expense for the shooter concerned and bad PR for all involved.

Personally, I used to keep my cert in my shooting diary, which was always in my kitbag and thus always to hand, but I'm thinking now that it'd be no harm to have a photocopy of it in the rifle case as well, and I've known people to keep copies of their certs actually taped to the butt of their rifles.

get a grip and carry your certificate to avoid confusion....................
Now all that being said why would anyone carry an exposed firearm (even an air-rifle) in the back of their car on a public road!!!!

Agreed on both points. Costs the shooter next to nothing and gains them a lot of peace of mind.

chem

Its all well and good saying we should carry our licence with us but the point was already made for me by FLAG "its only a piece of paper".

I do carry it on me some of the time while out shooting but by the end of the year it is more like a dead sea scroll after countless wettings in the rainy winters (and summers) and folding and unfolding the damn thing:o

God help us when it has to last 3 years:eek: might have to get CSI on the case to figure out what it once was

Pitty we cant get a credit card type licence with a photo on it but then again that would be asking to much from the powers that be :rolleyes:

Sparks

A4 laminators cost about €30 in dabs or viking direct, and less if you can find them in argos...

chem

Cheers sparks but could we not ask for something that is abit more practical to carry and that might last the 3 years? Its not that much to ask. Even a drivers licence type licence would do. All details on a magnetic strip on the back of the card and photo on the front. it could even be reused each time it had to be renewed (to save on paper) as we are all enviromentaly aware now.

How long will it take untill someone in government comes up with a lead tax to put on shot and bullets that enter the enviroment? MORE UNDER HANDED TAX:mad:

kowloon

Sparks wrote:

A4 laminators cost about €30 in dabs or viking direct, and less if you can find them in argos...

I used the laminator in work, makes it completely waterproof, but i just take a photocopy so i dont lose the original.
Dont use the stick on stuff, it peels off at the edges.

chem

Point is why the hell should we have to go to the expence of pouring plastic over our licence? It costs enough as is and we get notting in return but greef. Should we frame the licence behind glass and carry it with us? Why not ask for something that will last instaed of putting up with what we have at presant?

Will a member of the gardi accept a photo copy of your licence? its easy to cover details on anything and photo copy them!

cmd17hmr

i kno this is a stupid thing to say but what if you tell the garda you think lost it where you were hunting and your just driving home to make sure before you file it missing in your local station.:rolleyes:
he cant prove you wrong and your not going to leave the gun in the field or wherever you were using it.

ill shut up now
its just a way out of trouble if you forgot it

and i dont carry mine either because its filled with pen marks where the numbers and names were changed you do feel imbarresed looking at it let alone hand it over

rrpc

Sparks wrote:

A4 laminators cost about €30 in dabs or viking direct, and less if you can find them in argos...

They're even cheaper than all of those if you get one in Lidl I think mine cost 14.99!

However. Laminating a firearms cert just turns it from an awkward piece of paper into an awkward, unwieldy piece of plastic that you certainly can't put in your back pocket.

I go along with keeping it in your car, but as others have said, the process of keeping it on your person whilst negotiating ditches, hedges and sudden downpours could turn it into a nicely unreadable lump of papier mache.

The whole issue of photocopying it is not necessarily the answer either because it's just a copy and could be turned against you if you produced it to a Garda.

We really should have a more manageable document, something like the driving licence with a handy plastic pocket to keep it in would be a far superior beast.

In short. You may be (however unlikely that may be) arrested, but if you know your pulse id, and the phone number of your local station, no Garda is going to arrest you unless they are looking for extra paperwork and a bollocking from their station sergeant for wasting time.

.243

way back when i started shooting (it was a green a4 page back then for all you freshmens)i had put mine in my wallet when i was out shooting,but just when i had forgotton to put it back in the safe and i went off up country to see my girlfriend in college,my wallet got picked on me,two licences 300 "pounds"and credit cards gone,this was 10 years ago in dundalk of all places to lose your licences
so i went to the garda station to report them stolen and got a serious earful for my "incompentene of not secureing an important document that could have now fallen into the hands of blah blah blah",

since then they stay at home in the safe and if some guard wants to see that little piece of paper(which they wont because they have it verfied when they radio through your name and address and your firearms pop up automatically under it with all the details)they know where to find me,

firearms holders are deemed to be the most responsible people (excluding those who have slipped through the net "sign and endangered bird shooters),we go through a screeing process to deem us responsible enough to hold a firearm,

rrpc

I well remember the green A4 page (with scratchings out and ink blobs ). I remember being asked for mine while setting the sights of the rifle on my land by a Garda shouting through the hedge. (I jest not).

The poor bugger had been called out by a not so nice neighbour half a mile away who reported 'lots of shooting' and had to traipse through a field before ho got to me.

Waved the green paper at him and he headed off with a warning to be sure of my backstop! (back then, Gardai knew something about shooting ).

Common sense should prevail in these instances and the pulse system can find you from your name or just your date of birth. It's usually handy to have memorised your pulse id, as that knowledge alone should convince any Garda that you're above board.

alan123

Its only a piece of paper, but then so is a driving licence, insurance disc, tax disc, declaration of war, multi million pound contract etc etc. The point being, its still important. If you substitute in "five hundred euro note" every time "cert" is mentioned it puts a different spin on it!!!...

"Its all well and good saying we should carry our licence with us but the point was already made for me by FLAG "its only a five hundred euro note"."

As for the Guards being ignorant, can you blame them? Most wont have any dealings with firearms from one end of the year to the next, do you expect them to know the firearms act, wildlife act, firearms and ofensive weapons act, offences against the state act etc etc off the tip of their tongues. Blaming their "ignorance" is a cop out (pardon the pun!). Most of us dont know these acts very well and we are obliged to! Its like saying Im ignorant when it comes to rifle shooting. I am a shooter but Im not exposed to this type of shooting regularly so Im not up to scratch on it ,but I have a jist of it. Same as the Guard and the firearms act. Cut them some slack, we should be working with them. (and I know it goes both ways before the replies come thick and fast!!!!!!!)

Our atitude should be "This guy probably isnt sure what hes looking for so lets help him out, heres my licence, heres my insurance, answer all his questions"
-Guard happy, shooter happy, job oxo, bobs your uncle and fanny is your aunt!

CJhaughey

On the subject of practicality, you can get a material called tyvek which is able to withstand most abuse that is thrown at it.
Would it not be a whole lot better if the license was printed on a type of material that could take getting wet and not tear up?
Same goes for the deer license it could be made on a waterproof sheet of paper and would be almost indestructible then.

rrpc

alan123 wrote:

Its only a piece of paper, but then so is a driving licence, insurance disc, tax disc, declaration of war, multi million pound contract etc etc. The point being, its still important. If you substitute in "five hundred euro note" every time "cert" is mentioned it puts a different spin on it!!!...

"Its all well and good saying we should carry our licence with us but the point was already made for me by FLAG "its only a five hundred euro note"."

As for the Guards being ignorant, can you blame them? Most wont have any dealings with firearms from one end of the year to the next, do you expect them to know the firearms act, wildlife act, firearms and ofensive weapons act, offences against the state act etc etc off the tip of their tongues. Blaming their "ignorance" is a cop out (pardon the pun!). Most of us dont know these acts very well and we are obliged to! Its like saying Im ignorant when it comes to rifle shooting. I am a shooter but Im not exposed to this type of shooting regularly so Im not up to scratch on it ,but I have a jist of it. Same as the Guard and the firearms act. Cut them some slack, we should be working with them. (and I know it goes both ways before the replies come thick and fast!!!!!!!)

Our atitude should be "This guy probably isnt sure what hes looking for so lets help him out, heres my licence, heres my insurance, answer all his questions"
-Guard happy, shooter happy, job oxo, bobs your uncle and fanny is your aunt!

There are still practical problems with this Alan and that's what this thread is trying to address. Most people here accept that you should have your licence with you, it's just the best way of doing so without either putting the document itself at risk of loss or destruction, or getting into trouble with the law.

As you say, if you substitute €500 note for cert then would you be willing to stick it in your back pocket whilst traversing hills, dales, hedgerows and forests? Those of us in the target shooting fraternity usually have nice, (relatively cushy) ranges to go to and such considerations are not relevant. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't recognise the difficulties our brethern in the more 'rough' shooting disciplines encounter on a daily basis.

On the legal side, it has been established that you can and are obliged to give your name and address to a Garda when requested to do so. If you have a pulse id, you can give that to them as well. I am not advocating that anyone should fail to co-operate with Gardai, quite the contrary, but this is not a one way street and any Garda who receives your full co-operation should be willing to go half way to meeting you.

The real problem is with the document itself. If it were less unwieldy and more like (as you put it yourself) a driving licence, tax disc or insurance disc then this problem wouldn't arise.

cavan shooter

For one I carry my permit with me, after all thats what says i can carry the fire arm and x rounds of ammunition. It is second nature, the other thing I carry is the gun club membership card and the NARGC card.

There is always awkward fellas in all walks of life even in the guards, lets be honest if a garda ignored you as you were walking down a road, would you not be worried. On two occassions I had dealings with the gards walking down a country road to get in to the next fields

1. The car stopped and he asked me if I got anything, asked me was there many birds about (pheasants) then said good bye and off he went garda in his 40's and living in the area
2 years later
2. Two young lads in the squad asked me where I was going. Told them the story, one lad said I shouldn't be on the public road (country road, not even a busy road) with a gun. I explained I was nipping into the field down the road 150 yrds to go in after ducks on a river. You'd be better to stayin to the fields said one(fair point!!). I'm not convinced on the public road bit, they drove off even said best of luck

alan123

rrpc wrote:

As you say, if you substitute €500 note for cert then would you be willing to stick it in your back pocket whilst traversing hills, dales, hedgerows and forests? Those of us in the target shooting fraternity usually have nice, (relatively cushy) ranges to go to and such considerations are not relevant. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't recognise the difficulties our brethern in the more 'rough' shooting disciplines encounter on a daily basis.

.

Im a rough shooter and I wouldnt bring my licence around the fields with me, but i would have it in the glove box of my car. Mind you the ol target shooting sounds nice compared to sitting in a hide in the pouring rain; anyone want to trade a Beretta 682E for one of those Tactical .223 .17 subsonic suppressor bipod gizmos?!!!

(For the record, I dont even know what colour a €500 note is!!!!)

SMERSH

alan123 wrote:

(For the record, I dont even know what colour a €500 note is!!!!)

Let me check my wallet.

SMERSH

Another thought, Is laminating your licence legal? Would there be issues of non acceptance by dealers or Gardaí if they cannot examine the paper?

Sparks

It's not the physical form of the licence that's important smersh, but the information on it, so lamination shouldn't be illegal.

patbundy

why dont ye photocopy it and laminate that