Naming of Surfing Secret Spots

kermitdfrog

Wow. Talk about things getting out of hand.

Clearly there's valid points on either side of this debate, but surely a community as diverse as boards can understand that there are certain things certain communities do for reasons which those of us outside of that community cannot understand? Surely it would make more sense for a forum such as this to follow the guidelines adopted by the surfing communities all over the world, at least temporarily, while it debates whether or not this is the appropriate course of action?

A load of people with no experience or insight into the matter, dictating to others what they should or shouldn't do about something (their web "rules" and etiquette) they and others have spent years developing, smacks of extreme arrogance. Comments such as "I think the fact that the ISA claims that keeping secret spots secret is good for the sustainable development of the sport flies in the face of logic" ignore the fact that the ISA has been doing this for some time, as have surfing associations from around the world, and the likelihood is that they know more about it than any of us with no concept of the reasoning and logic behind such decisions could have.

I know nothing about surfing, nor am I aware of the exact reasoning behind such stances, but at least I can see, that, while I may question the attitude, it makes far more sense to, at least temporarily, respect that stance, while it's validity is debated. Why? Because I am not so cocky as to assume that I, knowing nothing about the issue, am right or that they, who have considerable experience in the matter, are wrong, or know less than me, and it would be prudent, to say the least, to follow the established guidelines while the issue is debated.

As for how it got out of hand, I haven't, nor do I intend to, read the whole lot, but threats of violence are (a) pathetic, (b) hilarious, and (c) counter-productive, but also the petty actions of some advocates of the other side of the argument, such as posting the name of the location in a signature, and veiled threats, are equally as childish and counter productive. I'm amazed the mods have allowed such, quite frankly, crap, to continue.

DeVore

Is it because

a. the beach is dangerous or

b. you dont want loads of outsiders using your beach.

DeV.

Enygma

Thank you kermitdfrog, well put.

DeVore, it's a little from column a and a little from column b. Nobody is saying that people can't surf there. But generally naming spots online does result in a large influx of people who had never heard of the spot before.
It's not about keeping outsiders from using the beach, it's about too many outsiders using the beach all of a sudden.

You Suck!

Way I see it, we got a two way tussle, Daveirl has made the point that forums respect convention based on what the forum follows, and enygma has made very reasonable suggestions as to why spots shouldn't be named.

On the other hand fuzzy wants freedom of information, which given the nature of the web ain't exactly unreasonable either.

But the sillyness here is the heavy handness that longboardire and carthy came in with......FFS!......Talk about newbies encroaching on local spots all the while coming on to new turf with boards and making outright demands over a single post no less!

Guess what lads! The mods and local's here are following the same script you do when it comes to arrogant assholes moving in on your territory, who'd have thought?

My only suggestion for a compromise here is that the relevant partys come to a mutual agreement by pm in that there will be some sensetivity towards secret/local spots all the while not encoaching on fuzzys want of openness in the forum. My suggestion for this, would be an outline in the forum charter, that most would rather you keep it to your self, however if you really want to push the point, then so be it, just don't expect people to be happy.

Other then that all I can say is Im happy not to be a Kerry local, All I've ever heard from that place is overcrowding, and now fights.....wonderful.

Lads, your welcome up to Galway........if you can find us that is

humanji

Enygma wrote:

Thank you kermitdfrog, well put.

DeVore, it's a little from column a and a little from column b. Nobody is saying that people can't surf there. But generally naming spots online does result in a large influx of people who had never heard of the spot before.
It's not about keeping outsiders from using the beach, it's about too many outsiders using the beach all of a sudden.

So it's all B then?

I'm not a surfer, and being ginger, my opinion counts for even less than everyone elses, but in fairness these spots shouldn't be named. It's common courtesy just like the other forums here following unwritten rules.

And wouldn't some of the fun of surfing be going to different locations and finding these spots for yourselves? Come on people, where's your sense of adventure?

seamus

kermitdfrog wrote:

Comments such as "I think the fact that the ISA claims that keeping secret spots secret is good for the sustainable development of the sport flies in the face of logic" ignore the fact that the ISA has been doing this for some time,

I would accept that, except for the fact that DeV points out - nobody can seem to get their argument straight. First off, it was a safety issue. Then it was an issue of overcrowding. Then it became a tourism issue, and then it became a "locals only" issue. Nobody seems capable of making up their mind. This is why we're probably having trouble understanding the rationale - no-one has given a solid stance with solid obvious reasons as to why this "tradition" should be respected.

6th

Enygma wrote:

It certainly does smack of elitism and territorialism, and you know what you're right. Surfers are notoriously territorial, and we won't apologise for that. There's also a pecking order at most breaks, so it's very hierarchial.

And Boards should give into this? I think not.

Marksie

humanji wrote:

And wouldn't some of the fun of surfing be going to different locations and finding these spots for yourselves? Come on people, where's your sense of adventure?

Thats true. I dont surf but i do fish for seabass and spots with good rip and a surf are promising. So its on my list next time i am down there.

Evil Phil

The issue here is that the etiquette of a community hasn't been respected. I know there is a wider etiquette on boards but I would argue that the Surfing forum is for the surfing community. Just as the Outdoor Pursuits forum is for the Outdoors community: All are welcome but respect how we do what we do.

I'll refer to the other 'sporting' community that I'm a member of, that of the climbing community. We have very, very strong ethics with regards to the style of climbing practiced in this country. Probably the strongest in the Europe. The reasons why are our own. We don't expect non-climbers to understand this - but we do expect them to respect how we practice our sport in our country. This is universal amoungst climbers internationally - just as the etiquette of not naming local breaks in universal amoungst surfers and should be respected. It hasn't - sadly that cannot be stopped. However I am not going to read the surfing forum anymore. That is all I can do.

<edit> I'll add that I'm not directing this at lightening.

RuggieBear

Evil Phil wrote:

The issue here is that the etiquette of a community hasn't been respected. I know there is a wider etiquette on boards but I would argue that the Surfing forum is for the surfing community. Just as the Outdoor Pursuits forum is for the Outdoors community: All are welcome but respect how we do what we do.

I'll refer to the other 'sporting' community that I'm a member of, that of the climbing community. We have very, very strong ethics with regards to the style of climbing practiced in this country. Probably the strongest in the Europe. The reasons why are our own. We don't expect non-climbers to understand this - but we do expect them to respect how we practice out sport in our country. This is universal amoungst climbers internationally - just as the etiquette of not naming local breaks in universal amoungst surfers and should be respected. It hasn't - sadly that cannot be stopped. However I am not going to read the surfing forum anymore. That is all I can do.

<edit> I'll add that I'm not directing this at lightening.

do you guys keep your climbs secret from others or do you grade them, etc...?

togster

Boston wrote:

This one is elitism dressed up as public safety which Is what I initially did have a problem with. .

No its not!! I can understand the importance of etiquette and tradition. There are unwritten rules in many sports. These are around for years and are just accepted as part of the sport. I can also understand how elitism can get confused with tradition. My sport fox hunting ( no debate!!) is a "elitist" sport. Where in fact it simply follows certain values and rules because thats where the sport originated from. I have no experience with surfing but i imagine its similar in so far as this is not simply an irish phenomonen.

I think the threat was unfortunate but as usual a few posters have latched onto that and used it as a tool to render the overall point useless. Everyone is entitled to there values and so should surfers. In the harry potter forum a poster was banned for describing the ending of the new book. Granted it was the forums users wishes for this not to happen. However i think new posters should be allowed to challenge certain forum rules if they see fit without the usual " how dare you challenge the mod mentality".

longboardirelan

You Suck! wrote:

But the sillyness here is the heavy handness that longboardire and carthy came in with......

Sigh - I was not heavy handed I politely asked on the forum and in pm's that the references to the particular spot be removed in line with surfing tradition worldwide.

The people involved have obviously huge chips on their shoulder. This whole incident will only have served to further enforce growing localism against east coast surfers particularly those travelling in groups. Waves arer a limited resource and when you guys are surfing a few years you'll realise that.

I think the points re secret spots have been well made and the fact that boards.ie refuses to adhere to the guidlines of the national sporting body smacks of arrogance.

6th

Arrogance v's Elitism it is so.

togster

RuggieBear wrote:

To me it sounds like it's not the number of people that is the problem... it is the strangely aggressive territorial culture you guys have managed to develop

Yes and there is nothing wrong with that. There are lots of sports with similar attributes. Surfers shouldn't have to apologise for thinking that way or adhering to an unwritten rule. Anyone who is passionate about anything will fight tooth and nail to maintain the values and prinicpals of his/her passion.
And last time i checked this is a puiblic forum so they have the right to express a certain view (within reason).

longboardirelan

Evil Phil wrote:

- just as the etiquette of not naming local breaks in universal amoungst surfers and should be respected. It hasn't - sadly that cannot be stopped. However I am not going to read the surfing forum anymore. That is all I can do..

thanks phil.

smashey

longboardirelan wrote:

I think the points re secret spots have been well made and the fact that boards.ie refuses to adhere to the guidlines of the national sporting body smacks of arrogance.

The same national body that wouldn't host the world championships because they wanted to keep all the spots a secret. That smacks of arrogance to me.

local surfer

I would just like to thank those of you who have commented intelligenty on this thread, and havent just used it as an opportunity to stir.

There are a number of you who are not contributing and are purely trying to antagonise, and I believe that this is not inkeeping with the boards.ie nature, or a good advertisement for it.

longboardirelan

smashey wrote:

The same national body that wouldn't host the world championships because they wanted to keep all the spots a secret. That smacks of arrogance to me.

no the same national body who respected the democratic wishes of all the surfers in ireland (inc non members) who voted not to have this event.

Enygma

It was the surfers that voted for that. It was seen at the time as a sell out and irish surfers didn't really appreciate that. It's not just a "sport" to a lot of people, hosting world championships doesn't always equal progression.

I think fair play to the ISA for not selling out and standing by the wishes of the surfers.

SimpleSam06

Enygma wrote:

I never told anyone what to do, I'm asking politely that people respect the custom of not naming unlisted surfing spots online.

And people have politely told you no. Why are you still posting?

Enygma wrote:

Who am I to ask that? As I already said I am the chairman of an ISA affiliated surf club, administrator of a local surfing website and moderator on a national surfing website.

So in other words you have no right to ask people not to use or mention a certain beach. Again, why are you still posting?

Enygma wrote:

It certainly does smack of elitism and territorialism, and you know what you're right. Surfers are notoriously territorial, and we won't apologise for that. There's also a pecking order at most breaks, so it's very hierarchial.

Jesus christ, this is like a re-run of lord of the flies. What a shower of throwbacks.

Enygma wrote:

Unfortunately the upshot of all of this is that more and more people will arrive down there which will only lead to aggression in the water. If you take Castlegregory as an example there were several fights in the water this summer alone solely due to over crowding.

If you keep up that sort of behaviour you'll find all the aggression you need in the length of a Guard's baton, my son.

Enygma wrote:

Think of it as putting 20 junkies into a locked room with one syringe and you've got the idea!

Or 20 juveniles in a room with 10 brightly coloured toys.

Enygma wrote:

But I don't think anyone who hasn't surfed for a good length of time will truly appreciate the issue.

Yes, of course, no other sport but surfing produces an adrenaline high which chuckleheads use as an excuse to beat each other up. Cos dey saw it on deh telly.



But duuuude, surfing is, like, about the karma, maaan... hey welcome to the sixties, you were forty years ago. Wake up, grow up, get up, and get out.

longboardirelan wrote:

The people involved have obviously huge chips on their shoulder.

Why do you keep quoting point break?

cornbb

longboardirelan wrote:

Sigh - I was not heavy handed I politely asked on the forum and in pm's that the references to the particular spot be removed in line with surfing tradition worldwide.

The people involved have obviously huge chips on their shoulder. This whole incident will only have served to further enforce growing localism against east coast surfers particularly those travelling in groups. Waves arer a limited resource and when you guys are surfing a few years you'll realise that.

I think the points re secret spots have been well made and the fact that boards.ie refuses to adhere to the guidlines of the national sporting body smacks of arrogance.

You know, I would absolutely 100% be on your side if you could explain to me how this policy of the national sporting body serves the interest of anyone except for jealous elitists.

I've found a wonderful lesser-known "secret" spot in the West thanks to one of the users on this forum. My surfing will improve as a result of it and I've never had any noses turned up at me there. I certainly won't be turning up at St. Finian's any time soon though.

As an aside, I've checked out your site, its cool and I'm glad to see you're doing your bit for the sport in Ireland.

But as for this convention, tradition, unwritten rule of not naming spots, I can't understand how it serves the interests of the sport of surfing in general, apart from serving the interests of a very minor part of the surfing community.

Boston

togster wrote:

No its not!!

It clearly is.

" how dare you challenge the mod mentality".

Its more like the how dare you threaten a mod or any user mentality. You sweep aside the threats very casually, but are up in arms (as usual i might add) against the mod.

longboardirelan: We are not bound by your rules. We do not have to follow them. Stop expecting us to fall in line like good little children.

local surfer: I'd be more worried about the advertisment this is doing for your sport.

Fysh

Evil Phil wrote:

The issue here is that the etiquette of a community hasn't been respected. I know there is a wider etiquette on boards but I would argue that the Surfing forum is for the surfing community. Just as the Outdoor Pursuits forum is for the Outdoors community: All are welcome but respect how we do what we do.

The surfing forum is for surfers, yes; but that doesn't mean that someone can sign up a new account and immediately demand that mod decisions be overturned. If the regular posters on a forum by and large decide that they don't particularly want to enforce a rule or guideline that's usually observed in the wider community at large, then so be it (until mods, admins etc decide otherwise).

It's a shame that this thread has essentially involved people making a request that some (myself included) disagree with. The request was, in fairness to the OP, politely made - unfortunately a few muppets then jumped on board and decided that surfers had too good an image, & so proceeded to tarnish it as best they could.

I'm not a surfer so I don't really have an opinion on this that I'd consider to have much weight. But, well, if non-boardsie surfers dislike the way the boards surf forum is moderated, they're surely welcome to not read boards. It's really not that hard.

Evil Phil

RuggieBear wrote:

do you guys keep your climbs secret from others or do you grade them, etc...?

Its not uncommon for an area to be kept secret. You've completely missed my point though.

lightening

longboardirelan wrote:

The people involved have obviously huge chips on their shoulder

Will you please stopt antagonising, we just want to surf.

longboardirelan wrote:

This whole incident will only have served to further enforce growing localism against east coast surfers particularly those travelling in groups. Waves arer a limited resource and when you guys are surfing a few years you'll realise that.

We are getting to the heart of it... Its a local thing, you don't want East coast people coming over. Well, west coast people come over to the East all the time, they use the roads, the sea, the sky... everything. There is overcrowding in the parks, on the beaches.

Thants a fact, deal with it.

longboardirelan wrote:

I think the points re secret spots have been well made and the fact that boards.ie refuses to adhere to the guidlines of the national sporting body smacks of arrogance.

Again, antagonising.

Boston

Moore bay Kilkee, County Clare.
youghal bay County Cork.
doughmore strand West Clare.
spinish point West clare.

I don't know how popular these points are, or which of them are secret, but sure I can get lots of lines of text in my Sig.

local surfer

Boston wrote:

It clearly is.




Its more like the how dare you threaten a mod or any user mentality. You sweep aside the threats very casually, but are up in arms (as usual i might add) against the mod.

longboardirelan: We are not bound by your rules. We do not have to follow them. Stop expecting us to fall in line like good little children.

local surfer: I'd be more worried about the advertisment this is doing for your sport.

Boston, if you do not want to be treated like a child, please remove the reference from your signature. It is childish in the extreme.

I think there has been enough discussion, valid points are being ignored, overall there does not seem to be anybody with the ability, mentality, or patience to resolve this situation. Again, a sad reflection of what I had previously considered to be a fair minded forum (boards.ie).

There are more important things in life.

Anyone who arrives at said spot as a result of this, or any other spot that will no doubt be revealed in the future, I hope that you enjoy your visit, and that the locals are still capable of providing a warm welcome.

Over and out.

lightening

local surfer wrote:

I hope that you enjoy your visit, and that the locals are still capable of providing a warm welcome.

Over and out.

Good man... We need more of that. If I stumble apon a good spot I hope I am treated with the manners that visitors to Dublin recieve from me.

SimpleSam06

local surfer wrote:

Again, a sad reflection of what I had previously considered to be a fair minded forum (boards.ie).

Um, if most of boards' population disagrees with your mentality, maybe your mentality is what needs to be reviewed, not the tens of thousands of people who use boards.

humanji

local surfer wrote:

I think there has been enough discussion, valid points are being ignored, overall there does not seem to be anybody with the ability, mentality, or patience to resolve this situation. Again, a sad reflection of what I had previously considered to be a fair minded forum (boards.ie).

Yeah, what kind of world do we live in when the majority wins out!