Naming of Surfing Secret Spots

Cuddlesworth

faceman wrote:

admit it dev, the only reason you posted the long post was cos you couldnt find a decent cat picture with a surfboard!

I've been looking for a day now, its not easy.

DeVore

one perhaps that says "I'm in your sekrit surf spots... stealing your wavez!" ?

I briefly considered it...

DeV.

local surfer

I'm very sad, not because a spot has been "outed", but because of the unavoidable conclusion to this sorry state of affairs. Dev, you seem to be intelligent, and I would ask you to reconsider.

I agree that probably underneath every thing is a large element of selfishness, but this is human nature. What will happen is that a limited resource will be put under more pressure which will result in friction at spots. Locals will club together (again human nature), and visitors will be made to feel unwelcome, which again, I do not condone, but it will happen, it is unfortunate, and I do not look forward to seeing it.

The surfing community goes back thousands of years. The hawaiian kings in fact had some surf spots that if you were caught riding you would be executed. At least we are in a much better position now, so why contribute to spoiling this?, especially when so many surfing communities all over the world already agree on this issue?.

As a beginner surfer it is very hard to understand some of the etiquette that is in place, but as you develop, travel more (yes travel!), submerge yourself into the culture, you realise why it has developed this way.
I think that the idea is mainly two fold:
1 - to maintain spots that can still be discovered and surfed uncrowded
2 - to provide a safety control mechanism - you find out about spots by word of mouth as you progress as a surfer, thereby reducing the instances of ego overcoming ability/experience.

I can appreciate that non-surfers will find this hard to understand.

By your stance you are saying to the world that boards.ie does what ever the hell it wants to, well, sometimes I think thats a great attitude, but in this instance I think it is immature, and ignoring the greater community, and Im not referring to these forums, but am referring to the worldwide surfing community.

mikedragon32

krazy_8s wrote:

I've been looking for a day now, its not easy.

I found the one I used in seconds! Just add wordage...

cornbb

local surfer wrote:

I'm very sad, not because a spot has been "outed", but because of the unavoidable conclusion to this sorry state of affairs. Dev, you seem to be intelligent, and I would ask you to reconsider.

I agree that probably underneath every thing is a large element of selfishness, but this is human nature. What will happen is that a limited resource will be put under more pressure which will result in friction at spots. Locals will club together (again human nature), and visitors will be made to feel unwelcome, which again, I do not condone, but it will happen, it is unfortunate, and I do not look forward to seeing it.

The surfing community goes back thousands of years. The hawaiian kings in fact had some surf spots that if you were caught riding you would be executed. At least we are in a much better position now, so why contribute to spoiling this?, especially when so many surfing communities all over the world already agree on this issue?.

As a beginner surfer it is very hard to understand some of the etiquette that is in place, but as you develop, travel more (yes travel!), submerge yourself into the culture, you realise why it has developed this way.
I think that the idea is mainly two fold:
1 - to maintain spots that can still be discovered and surfed uncrowded
2 - to provide a safety control mechanism - you find out about spots by word of mouth as you progress as a surfer, thereby reducing the instances of ego overcoming ability/experience.

I can appreciate that non-surfers will find this hard to understand.

By your stance you are saying to the world that boards.ie does what ever the hell it wants to, well, sometimes I think thats a great attitude, but in this instance I think it is immature, and ignoring the greater community, and Im not referring to these forums, but am referring to the worldwide surfing community.

You are misrepresenting the surfing community. It seems to me that even the ISA is misrepresenting the surfing community.

This whole thing is called progress. There has been much debate in the surfing world over the march of the internet, stormrider, windguru.com, surf forecasts, webcams, etc. This, IMO, has all been good for surfing and now represents the shape of modern surfing in Ireland. This is the way it is, whether you consider us noobs/kooks, whether you like it or not.

Your unwritten rule is clearly not for the benefit of this new generation of surfers, it is clearly nothing but selfish.

Btw I don't foresee significant amounts of newcomers coming along to your local break as a result of this thread. You've made it fairly clear how they'll be welcomed and painted Irish surfing in an unfairly sh*tty light in the process. I hope every non-surfer who reads this recognises it for the immature, outdated localism that it is.

stevenmu

The thing about secrets is that they're only a secret as long as everyone who is told it agrees to keep it that way, but if someone else happens to find out about it then it's no longer a secret. I can understand people having their favourite spot and deciding not to tell anyone about it, but if somebody else happens to stumble across it then tough sh!t, it's no longer a secret, that person doesn't have to be bound by your code, and they can tell whoever they like about it.

Boards.ie has always been about like minded people sharing information, and I'm delighted to see it's going to stay that way. We have people here on for e.g. the programming and webmaster forums who share their professional secrets, the things they make a living from, I really don't see why people can't help each other out sharing good surfing spots.

You Suck!

Btw I don't foresee significant amounts of newcomers coming along to your local break as a result of this thread.

This thread and the antics in the first thread have also made me very apprehensive about the organized surfing society in this country. Up until now, I had an interest in ISA membership, and partaking within a club. Now Im not so sure, especially with the territorialism displayed. For the moment, Im gonna stay outside the circle and make my friends on the water. Up until now, I was thinking it was a pity that we didn't have a local club, now Im happy that we don't and that the sport in our area is one of individuals who know each other and have no pretensions to being something more then each other.

DeVore

Local_surfer I agree with some of your logic but there's a point where it simply skews off.

You say:
I agree that probably underneath every thing is a large element of selfishness, but this is human nature. What will happen is that a limited resource will be put under more pressure which will result in friction at spots. Locals will club together (again human nature), and visitors will be made to feel unwelcome, which again, I do not condone, but it will happen, it is unfortunate, and I do not look forward to seeing it.

This I agree with, I dont like the idea either but trying to control informtion is like trying to nail jelly to the ceiling. Its only going to last so long...
Let me turn things around and say something constructive.
A better approach might be to get these breaks designated as surfing spots by the tourist board. Then have a limited number of "guest" passes and also a bunch of "local resident" passes. This would regulate the flow of users to the spot much the same way that ski-resorts control access to the mountain. I dont like it much as I want to ride all the best snow all the time but its better then a melee on the pistes.


I think that the idea is mainly two fold:
1 - to maintain spots that can still be discovered and surfed uncrowded


I think you mean "make it more difficult to find out about the spots and so deter most people from bugging us". I cant see how controling information will help people discover anything. But kudos on a wonderful piece of spin turning "keep secret" into "maintain spots that can still be discovered".


2 - to provide a safety control mechanism - you find out about spots by word of mouth as you progress as a surfer, thereby reducing the instances of ego overcoming ability/experience.


This is not a safety system, you could be sitting in a bar with your newly found surfer mates and listening to them discussing this great spot regardless of your surfing skill. True, they might tell you that its a hard spot you arent ready for, but so might a forum. In fact, I'd very much like to see some kind of simple difficulty rating on such spots, if we dont already have it.

By your stance you are saying to the world that boards.ie does what ever the hell it wants to, well, sometimes I think thats a great attitude, but in this instance I think it is immature, and ignoring the greater community, and Im not referring to these forums, but am referring to the worldwide surfing community.

This is not my stance. In fact I said that if the surfing forum community wanted to do things another way then I would agree with that. What I'm saying is that you simply cannot ask the internet not to publish information. Its what it does. We're part of it. Even if we gagged ourselves (and I'm still wondering why we should do that for locals benefit), someone else is going to come along and publish it. In fact the more you hoard that information, the more likely it is to be published.... www.secretsurfspots.com anyone?

Trying desperately to bottle up information is a bad and unsustainable. Thats why I said "find a better way". I'm not going to ask the mods to snip and cut every reference to every surf spot out there because its too much work and we're asking them to take it on on your behalf.

Finally, and I kinda hate to say this but its true, we are the enemy in this situation. We are the unwashed, non-local public you hate so much, stealing your waves and crowding your spots. Its kinda weird for you to come along and say "hey guys, could you please not reveal our secret surf spots, because, well, we dont like you and we dont want you to come here".

DeV.

Boston

DeVore wrote:

This is not a safety system, you could be sitting in a bar with your newly found surfer mates and listening to them discussing this great spot regardless of your surfing skill. True, they might tell you that its a hard spot you arent ready for, but so might a forum. In fact, I'd very much like to see some kind of simple difficulty rating on such spots, if we dont already have it.

DeV.

Especially considering that the spot (St finnians bay Co kerry) is widely advertised on line (by locals not less) as a great surfing and fishing spot with no mention of danger.

Evil Phil

I do think its a little unfair if you turn your giant magnifying glass on the entire surfing community outside of boards.ie just because some tards decided to threaten the mod. Ban them yes, name and shame them if you can(in fact that would be a great idea!), but why should a much larger group of people suffer the fall out because of their outrageous behaviour? After all, most surfers that I know and have met wouldn't tolerate their behaviour either. On that point the vast majority on both sides of this arguement can agree.

Boston

Evil Phil wrote:

I do think its a little unfair if you turn your giant magnifying glass on the entire surfing community outside of boards.ie just because some tards decided to threaten the mod. Ban them yes, name and shame them if you can(in fact that would be a great idea!), but why should a much larger group of people suffer the fall out because of their outrageous behaviour? After all, most surfers that I know and have met wouldn't tolerate their behaviour either. On that point the vast majority on both sides of this arguement can agree.

I don't know, there seems to have been alot of strugging of the shoulder and saying 'things are worse in hawaii.' Why should a volunteer moderator have to put up with that crap.

As for name and shame. I'm 90% certain on both the name and location of the user, an IP check would confirm. However there are users on that forum who know for sure who the guy is.

Fysh

local surfer wrote:

I agree that probably underneath every thing is a large element of selfishness, but this is human nature. What will happen is that a limited resource will be put under more pressure which will result in friction at spots. Locals will club together (again human nature), and visitors will be made to feel unwelcome, which again, I do not condone, but it will happen, it is unfortunate, and I do not look forward to seeing it.

It happens because the mentality of "owning" bits of public land is not only allowed to continue but encouraged. And sitting around saying "waily waily waily, it's such a shame that open discussion about off-the-beaten-track surfing spots led to violence" ignores the real issue - ie that anyone, local surfer or otherwise, who thinks that violence is a good way of dealing with a situation they don't like, has no place in a modern society. And trying to claim that the unwritten rule of keeping schtum about it avoids this conflict is hiding the symptom rather than dealing with the problem.

If the surfing community has a bunch of territorial members who react violently when *gasp* other members of the public turn up to make use of a public space, then those members of the surfing community can and should be dealt with by the law. End of story. I couldn't give a rat's ass what culture you claim to be part of, you don't get to force your rules on everyone and that's the end of the story.

local surfer wrote:

The surfing community goes back thousands of years. The hawaiian kings in fact had some surf spots that if you were caught riding you would be executed. At least we are in a much better position now, so why contribute to spoiling this?, especially when so many surfing communities all over the world already agree on this issue?.

Other communities may set precedents or have good ideas on a given issue; that doesn't mean everyone has to follow on. You don't seem to grasp here that one of the guys responsible for the continued existence of this site has said "No". You can keep on whining about it, but you're probably not going to get your way unless you come up with a better argument than "but surfers can be a risible violent bunch of bastards, and this little rule prevents them from being outed as such".

local surfer wrote:

As a beginner surfer it is very hard to understand some of the etiquette that is in place, but as you develop, travel more (yes travel!), submerge yourself into the culture, you realise why it has developed this way.
I think that the idea is mainly two fold:
1 - to maintain spots that can still be discovered and surfed uncrowded
2 - to provide a safety control mechanism - you find out about spots by word of mouth as you progress as a surfer, thereby reducing the instances of ego overcoming ability/experience.

1. Whoopde-friggin-doo! I take it you're also pursuing lawsuits against atlas publishers, map-makers and those pesky gits who make Google Earth. Otherwise, you'll have to join the rest of us in the twenty first century and realise that the world has been mapped, information is out there, and you're not going to be able to stop it.

2. If someone's a moron, they're a moron. If anything, withholding information about sites which are out of the way and dangerous makes it more likely that people will find them by themselves, not realise the risks, and then have an accident. It's funny how you seem to flit between the notion of "surfers travel and find new spots for themselves, so it doesn't matter if you post information about surfing spots" and "surfers don't look for new spots themselves, so talking about certain spots will spoil it for the priviledged few" without noticing the inherent contradiction.

local surfer wrote:

By your stance you are saying to the world that boards.ie does what ever the hell it wants to, well, sometimes I think thats a great attitude, but in this instance I think it is immature, and ignoring the greater community, and Im not referring to these forums, but am referring to the worldwide surfing community.

Well, apparently the surfing community which is so big on respecting cultures has pitched up here and decided, without making much effort to integrate itself into the boards.ie community, to start making demands. So frankly, they can sod off.

Once again, with feeling me hearties! Boards.ie is a private enterprise and thus, can do whatever the hell it likes within the constraints of the law. Don't like it? Off you go elsewhere then, and leave those of us that do like it to our own devices.

Jesus. When did the word "No" get to be so hard to understand?

Evil Phil

Boston wrote:

I don't know, there seems to have been alot of strugging of the shoulder and saying 'things are worse in hawaii.' Why should a volunteer moderator have to put up with that crap.

They absolutely shouldn't. No way should they put up with that and those users should have been banned straight away in my opinion.

Say somebody decides to threaten me because I allow something to be discussed on one of the Outdoor Pursuits forum? It shouldn't be tolerated either but neither should DeVore use his advanced knowledge of internet technologies to force the entire climbing community to give up their ethics to make those few pay for their actions. That would be very unfair.

local surfer

Thanks for your reply DeVore.

I agree with many of the sentiments, especially the anti violence and aggression (and there is a fair amount contained within these pages on both sides).

The safety system isnt probably the best, its just the one that has evolved. I dont think anyone could actually administrate a system of local vs visitor passes, and this would no doubt lead to a pay to play system, which would in turn favour the more affluent parties.

I'm not really here to debate the whole surfing ethos, I was just hoping to get some level of integrity regarding spot naming intergrated into the site. Which I have obviously failed at.

I think your analogy about trying to stem the flood on information by putting fingers into holes was very good, and again I agree with it, but it is a lot different to blowing up the dam entirely.

Just for the record, personally I have no problems with what lightening posted, and wouldnt have mentioned it myself, it is more what followed (mainly driven by Boston) and the lack of an ongoing policy.

longboardirelan

DeVore

Thanks for your lengthy post and for taking the time to read through the entire thread.

Theres alot of unhappy people as a result of this and I'm bowing out now. I tried and tried both politely and fairly.

In a few years time the mods on the surf forum if they continue to surf will understand.

Slán

lightening

As the one who mentioned in passing the spot I am sorry you made so much trouble for yourself longboardireland.

Unfortunately I understand localism. I just don't like it.

I still, after asking a few times, eagerly await your safety concerns regarding the break that you insisted was the reason for your asking me to edit my post.

I hope you continue to enjoy safe surfing in a fantastic part of the country and hope you don't feel to bad about all that has gone on.

DeVore

Phil, I wasnt suggesting that. I was saying that if the locals of Surfville, Co Clare came along and threatened us repeatedly and violently, I'd have no problem in making sure theirs was the most widely known surf spot in all of Ireland. Two can play at the bullying game.

Longboard, I acknowledge your attempt and I hope you found my response and that of Regi to be fair and reasoned, even if you dont agree with it. They represent the opinions of the owners of the sites, and only they do.

Local_surfer, we are just a piece of the dam breaking off. Have you considered that every beach is local to someone? So if you dont happen to be lucky enough to live on a beach thats good for surf, what do you do?

Another way to look at it is, perhaps if its over crowded YOU should not surf, after all you've had your go! You've been on natures ride for a good while and perhaps it would solve the issue if you guys didnt hog the surf.

But that would be a mad idea, eh?

DeV.

local surfer

DeVore wrote:

Local_surfer, we are just a piece of the dam breaking off. Have you considered that every beach is local to someone? So if you dont happen to be lucky enough to live on a beach thats good for surf, what do you do?


DeV.

I have considered it often, which is why when I travel (which I do frequently) I do so with the greatest of respect of those who are local to the spot. Which means, not arriving in crowds, waiting for your turn, taking left overs where need be, taking rubbish home with you, and not revealing the spot on a public forum. This has never been about stopping people from going anywhere, something that seems to have been continually brushed aside during these threads.


Also, who told you about Surfsville? .

Good luck.

Cuddlesworth

Secret spot Kerry surfing surf.

I'm done.

local surfer

krazy_8s wrote:

Secret spot Dublin surfing surf.

I'm done.

Well done!.

Talliesin

local surfer wrote:

The surfing community goes back thousands of years. The hawaiian kings in fact had some surf spots that if you were caught riding you would be executed.

There's nothing in Irish religious history to imply that the local gods would object to anyone surfing any particular spot.

The kings didn't just want to keep the surf for themselves, it was honestly believed that it would piss off the gods who would in turn have something to say on the matter.

Do you honestly believe any gods are going to be pissed off?

Evil Phil

No he doesn't, as well you know. But that was a valid contribution, thanks for that. :rolleyes:

localsurfer your right, the current situation doesn't make a bit of difference to finding local surf spots when travelling. In fact it ads to the adventure and overall fun to *discover* them yourself. This won't change too much due to this thread and this site. But it will change if a greater majority outside of surfing decide to get pissed off about how we enjoy our sport. Lets hope that doesn't happen.

RuggieBear

Evil Phil wrote:

No he doesn't, as well you know. But that was a valid contribution, thanks for that. :rolleyes:

localsurfer your right, the current situation doesn't make a bit of difference to finding local surf spots when travelling. In fact it ads to the adventure and overall fun to *discover* them yourself. This won't change too much due to this thread and this site. But it will change if a greater majority outside of surfing decide to get pissed off about how we enjoy our sport. Lets hope that doesn't happen.

But what about the fun of having discovered a great surfing spot like Finians bay (all by yourself) when travelling and then getting into trouble when you found yourself out of your depth because there were no warnings that it was dangerous...?

Talliesin

Evil Phil wrote:

No he doesn't, as well you know. But that was a valid contribution, thanks for that. :rolleyes:

You're welcome. I thought it might help to show how his comparison was irrelevant.

Evil Phil

RuggieBear wrote:

But what about the fun of having discovered a great surfing spot like Finians bay (all by yourself) when travelling and then getting into trouble when you found yourself out of your depth because there were no warnings that it was dangerous...?

There is a huge difference between what I described and being a moron.

L31mr0d

have to say, I NEVER visit the surfing forum, I don't surf myself. But I have a group of friends that do, you can be guaranteed they will hear about this place now. For one, I usually don't read feedback threads, but putting the word "secret" in the title is as much a lure as "free beer" or "sex".

Frankly the protesters have done more to advertise this surfing site than anyone else could, by constantly bumping topics about it onto the main page and being controversial and aggressive.

All concerns should of been handled via PM and sent straight to the top of that fora, no engaging in petty arguments should of happened. If the matter had of been approached maturely you could of at least got the threads locked which would of killed them off and not made their search footprint what it is now.

Maybe the mods of the surfing fora can take the line of the movies and reviews fora and get people to spoiler tag any secret surf locations being posted?

RuggieBear

L31mr0d wrote:

All concerns should of been handled via PM and sent straight to the top of that fora, no engaging in petty arguments should of happened. If the matter had of been approached maturely you could of at least got the threads locked which would of killed them off and not made their search footprint what it is now.

it was all by pm till they didn't get the responses and actions they wanted. They then decided to escalate it.

Fysh

Evil Phil wrote:

But it will change if a greater majority outside of surfing decide to get pissed off about how we enjoy our sport. Lets hope that doesn't happen.

In fairness, the "majority outside surfing" only got in any way pissed off with how you enjoy your sport because someone claiming to represent you pitched up on boards asking that non-boardsie views on a given community be taken into account when determing the charter for a boardsie forum. And then a few more people claiming to be part of your group pitched up, got their noses bent out of shape upon being told that they couldn't have their own way, and made veiled threats and crap excuses to justify their stance.

This isn't a case of boards setting out to antagonise the surfing community. This is a few individuals in the surfing community having a whinge because the boards surfing forum doesn't go along with an archaic rule the rest of the community allegedly does follow.

Enygma

This isn't a case of boards setting out to antagonise the surfing community.

There are certain members that have antagonised us though, by putting it in sigs simply to wind people up. Equally as childish I hope you'll agree.

longboardirelan

RuggieBear wrote:

it was all by pm till they didn't get the responses and actions they wanted. They then decided to escalate it.

Christ almighty! that is not true. If you actually read the thread you will see that I asked who the mods were and I pm'd them. Then the mod to antagonise me renamed the thread with the location in the title and published the PM;s as did another user. Now that I think of it the surfing forum mods are even more culpable. And thats it gone.......