Longest runs for marathon training

billyhead

I am hoping to run under 3 hours in the New York Marathon this November and was just wondering what distance should I be up to on my longest runs at the moment?

--amadeus--

First up congrats - that's a race I'd love to do and that's a very impressive target. That said you've asked a piece of string question...

Is this your first marathon? If so what are you basing your target time on? What training plan are you following? Are you runnig twice a day and how many days do you run?

All that said the generic advice would be, working backwards from race week:

marathon / 12M / 18M / 20M / 22M / 20M / 20M / 18M / 16M

so if I were you I'd be looking at a LSR of 16 miles this weekend, with a 6 or 8 mid-week.

Good luck!

billyhead

Thanks for the info Amadeus. I am running at most 4 days a week only and my longest run so far has been 17 miles which I ran 3 weeks ago. The last tow weekends I have ran half marathon races (just under 74 mins in Longford & just over 74 mins in the Nationals). I know a marathon is a big step up from a half. By the way I know the Long runs at the weekend are the most important part of the training for a marathon. Are the mid week runs just to keep you ticking over i.e maintain a strong aerobic base (conditioning etc). If so would I really need to be running up to 50 miles a week?

--amadeus--

Impressive times!

I'm a fair bit slower than you (marathon PB 3:33, aiming for 3:15 in Berlin) so take my advice with a pinch of salt and discuss with others closer to your pace but here goes...

It's obvious that the hardest thing about the marathon is that it goes on for so bloody long but it can't be stressed enough to novices that you can't "cheat" marathon distance running in teh way you can at shorter races. You can get away without a lot of training for a 10K or even a 1/2 but over 26.2 miles if you haven't trained you will fail. For that reason LSRs are - as you say - vital.

Conventional wisdom is that your 5 longest runs should total 100 miles and that you should add around 10% per week. At 17 miles already you are well on track and teh standard progression I gave earlier will get the distance in. If you aren't already I would strongly suggest following a structured plan though.

Now the part you won't like! The midweek runs are for aerobic fitness but they are also to build stamina - miles make the physiological changes to enable you to run a marathon possible and 4 days per week and <50 miles might be cutting it a bit short...

A sub 3 hour marathon is fast enough to qualify you for events like Boston and London and would put you in the top 200 in the Dublin marathon (out of 8000). Lance Armstrong (no slouch at endurance events) called running a sub 3 in NYC "the physically hardest thing I heve ever done". Thats despite being trained and paced by some of teh worlds best athletes and survivng chemo!

To build that level of endurance the standard advice is that you should be running 75 - 100 miles per week, 6 days per week. Mid week runs should build to 12 - 15 miles and be followed by shorter recovery runs. Tempo runs of up to 15 miles at marathon pace and 6+ at 10K pace should also feature, as should the usual drill of track sessions and hills.

Obviously all of that is "standard" advice and changes from person to person - you may well need fewer miles to build the endurance than others.

depadz

--amadeus-- wrote:

To build that level of endurance the standard advice is that you should be running 75 - 100 miles per week, 6 days per week.

75-100 miles - this sounds excessive from anything i've read. The hal higdon intermediate only goes into the 40's in any given week. (granted this is my first one, so only going by what I've read..)

--amadeus--

Personally I've always found Hal's plans to be a bit on the light side - he himself says that he prefers runners to go in 10% undertrained rather than 1% overtrained. For example even his Inter 2 chedule only has 3* 20 milers. I would have thought that that plan was aimed at sub 4, sub 3:45 rather than anything faster. Sub 3 is very, very quick and would be covered by an Advanced plan. For example this site has a range of schedules and it says "Advanced: For runners aiming for sub-3:30, with training over 6-7 days, and from 44 to 60 miles a week" Obviously if you want to go faster than 3:30 you'll have to train harder and for a marathon that means more miles.

I'm in training for marathon #6 and I average 40+ mpw to record 3:30ish times and anyone I have spoken to about getting faster says the same thing - "miles make champions"!

depadz

bugger - i'm hoping for a sub 3:30 with this one, all going well (won't be too upset if I go a bit over it). I've been following his inter I plan pretty strictly (missing the odd shorter run, have done all the long ones).

The longest run i've done so far is 18 miles which i did in 2:30. I only have two long runs left (both 20 miles) with a 12 and a 13 in the mix there too before I taper.

Would you suggest tweaking it a bit now to include a few more long ones or will I see this plan through and maybe look at another plan if I do another one?

tunney

I did 3:26 in Dublin last year and I walked the last 6 miles in 70 minutes as my ITB imploded. I didn't do close to 40mpw never mind over it.

Mileage doesn't make champions, quality training and genetics do. Junk mileage is always just that - junk.

thirtyfoot

tunney wrote:

Mileage doesn't make champions, quality training and genetics do. Junk mileage is always just that - junk.

Junk mileage, I like that one!

Mileage kind of makes champions up to a certain threshold but once you hit your mileage threshold you won't make any gains after that. I'm only guessing but for the average marathon runner the mileage threshold is probably 40-60mpw.

depadz

Tunney - well i don't have the genetics to do fast times so am relying on the training to get me through. Would you suggest sticking with the plan I have followed so far? I'm inclined to at this stage..

--amadeus--

I wouldn't alter a plan you have been sticking to and Hal H's plans are very, very good. All of us react differently to training and there is no rule that says you must run x in training to achieve y time.

However the general consensus is that high miles make for faster marathon runners. HH himself when he was an elite runner would cover 80+ miles in a week and experimented with 100+ weeks and super long training runs of 30 miles . He found that the recovery time and injury risk for himself were higher at the 100 mpw level than teh gains he made so stabailsed at 80ish. According to a cited article on Wikipedia Most male elite marathon runners will have weekly mileages of over 100 miles (160 kilometres) and virtually all of teh sub 3 runners I have spoken to ("real" or online) run more than 75 miles a week.

I personally don't agree with the concept of "junk" miles. All runs should have a purpose - there is no point going out for a lazy 3 miler just because you can't be bothered to do a fast 6 or whatever. But all distance carries value, even at lower speed. Indeed one of teh side affects of higher mileage is that it builds not just cardio fitness but also resistance - your joints, tendons etc become more accustomed to high impact excercise which ultimatley might prevent injury disasters during the race, for example.

At the end of teh day though it's all individual - some people are naturally gifted and can run sub 40 min 10Ks off no training and sub 3 marathons off 20 - 40 mile weeks. I agree with Tingle as well - you can only train yourself up to a certain level, after that it's genetics. But for most people hoping to go sub 3 the only route is lots and lots and lots and lots of miles in training (they are called "good for age" times for a reason!)

billyhead

The only problem with running so many miles is trying to find the time holding down a full time job. Many elite athletes are professionals and can afford to run 80-100 miles per week and get adequate recovery etc. But for us general folk who work 9-5 its hard to not only get the time and energy after a days work but also we woudn't have the same support elite athletes have i.e. regular access to physios, dieticians etc etc. I am planning to run under 3 hours in The New York marathon myself (did a 20 miler last Sunday in training) but there are some days when I coudln't be bother going for a run (thats why I would not commit to a training plan), due to tiredness or small aches or pains in the joints. I feel as long as I at least get out running 4 days a week (including a couple of race pace runs off around 7-8 miles) and include a long run at the weekend I should be ok. My race times are not bad aswell (recent half in 74 mins and I know I know a half is nothing like a full). To be honest I much prefare racing then training hence I am going to compete in the Dublin Half in 2 weeks and shorter races (5 milers, cross country etc) before New York.

Abhainn

I'm hoping for a sub 3:20 in my first marathon in Dublin.
I have only done one long run i.e at 16 miles and plan an 18 miler this weekend.
I have planned a 20, then an 18 and another 20 by 13th Oct. By then I will have peaked at about 38 miles based on 4 runs in the week 3 of which are done during lunch.
Did the Longford half in the low 1:33's but carried a hip injury into that and was on for a 1:31 at the mid point but it flared up again.
(I suppose a 10 hour day previous in a cheery picker painting my house wasn't best for it!)
I'm also loosely following hal higdon intermediate : Yes according to detail above a 3:20 is ambious I know.
billyhead 74 min for half is excellent. To get under 3hrs for the full is a great challenge

--amadeus--

Best of luck to you both in your attempts, I hope you achieve your target times.

SharkTale

Just trying to finalize my last 6 weeks of training, and schedule in the long runs around work commitments, have been following HH novice programme, and will have to juggle the last few runs. My question is would the following schedule be okay keeping in mind the tapering as suggested. And I am aware that Hal only has one 20 miler run in the schedule but from me mentally it will be important to run over 20 miles once during the training programme.

Working back from the marathon
Marathon
12 miles
22 miles
12 miles
20 miles
13 miles
Any advice is appreciated,
Thanks

billyhead

Shark Tale,

I woudn't recommend doing the 22 mile run 2 weeks out. You should try and do your last majorly long run 3 weeks out.

SharkTale

BillyHead,

Thanks for that info, will try a juggle long runs to suit better with schedules.

Regards

ceidefields

Rather than running 100 miles a week to achieve a fast time, I think a better approach is to go for aggressive long runs. So if you're going for a 20 miler, run 10 miles at your usual long run pace, then pick it up to a little faster than race pace for the last ten. This will build your endurance for the home stretch.

I have a friend who's an elite and was invited to run the NYC marathon (I've run marathons too but not that fast). She's training at about 40-50 per week at the moment which breaks down to a long run at the weekend with a few ten milers thrown in during the week.

If you aren't used to running 75 miles/week, definitely do not suddenly increase your mileage. That's an invitation for an injury and no marathon at all.

Tunney - I suffer from ITB pain too and I find that if I push too hard in a race, it will let me down towards the end. I've started a lot of cycling and swimming cross training which seems to help.

ZiggyStardust

billyhead wrote:

I am hoping to run under 3 hours in the New York Marathon this November

hi Billyhead, I'm doing NY this year too. Looking forward to it.Had been a bit worried about long runs too. Just seem to have something on every weekend. Have a wedding this weekend too, so took today off and am going to do 20 this morning. Did a couple of 18's already.
Just wondering, how are you getting to the start. One of the buses or the Ferry? Thinking the buses leave way to early?
Anyone else doing NY this year.

billyhead

Hi Ziggy,

I am travelling over to New york with the Sports Travel International tour operators so transfers to the race start will be catered for. As far as I know a bus is organised. There should be plenty of busses going to the race start on the morning.

Rgds
Billyhead

ZiggyStardust

Thanks Billy, I had purchased a bus ticket but I think last one leaves at 6:30 from manhatten. Don't mind getting up early, just didn't want to be hanging around the start for ages before hand. Sure i think the bus would be a safer bet than the ferry anyway.
Good luck with rest of training.