Are we genetically predisposed towards being atheists?

Hivemind187

If, as evidenced by certain experiements, human beings are in many cases "hard wired" to believe in god (or more aptly "have a religious experience") does it not follow that those of who are not are in essence "hard wired" not to react to the same stimuli therefore could be considered biologically atheistic?

This is a headscratcher because it actually suggests a physical difference between atheists and theists.

Please see the "Horizon: God on the Brain" documentary for more information.

Zombrex

I would imagine, as with a lot of the nature vs nurture debates, not as black and white as that.

Hivemind187

I'm not suggesting it is only that there may be a predisposition towards believing in the supernatural just like there is a predisposition towards schizophrenia.

Its a fascinating concept that there may have been an evolutionary impetus to religious belief.

Fanny Cradock

Your example seems to imply that belief in something other than the physical world is akin to madness.

MooseJam

i wouldn't have said that, it's just an example, you are too defensive

Fanny Cradock

MooseJam wrote:

you are too defensive

i wouldn't have said that

lookinforpicnic

Hivemind187 wrote:

Are we genetically predisposed to become atheists

No, my opinion would be that our culture experiences far outweigh any biological individual differences that could bias belief or non-belief in a god. With perhaps an exception to extreme cases which of course are always the most documented ones but can also be the most misleading.

Also, I believe the many biological factors which may engender a belief in god, like the ability to attribute agency to entities in the world is so wrapped in culture/language anyway (i.e. the ability to predict conspecifics (and your own) behaviour) that it would be difficult to make any case 'that religious belief is all down to the genes'.

I think a little encouragement or the security in having mutual beliefs (as explanations for the goings on of life) provide much more of a confirming effect than any gene could have.

Scofflaw

Hivemind187 wrote:

If, as evidenced by certain experiements, human beings are in many cases "hard wired" to believe in god (or more aptly "have a religious experience") does it not follow that those of who are not are in essence "hard wired" not to react to the same stimuli therefore could be considered biologically atheistic?

There certainly seems to be a difference in mental wiring between those who can rid themselves of the notion that events must have a meaning and an author, and those who cannot - which is what I would regard as the primary difference in attitude between atheists and theists.

The "ability to have a religious experience", however, pre-supposes a religious person. Possibly atheists have similar experiences, but simply don't consider them as religious experiences.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Hivemind187

Scofflaw wrote:

There certainly seems to be a difference in mental wiring between those who can rid themselves of the notion that events must have a meaning and an author, and those who cannot - which is what I would regard as the primary difference in attitude between atheists and theists.

The "ability to have a religious experience", however, pre-supposes a religious person. Possibly atheists have similar experiences, but simply don't consider them as religious experiences.

cordially,
Scofflaw

According to the info I can find it seems that atheists or more accurately, those who are not predisposed towards spiritual experiences, appear to be less receptive to certain extrenal factors such as electromagnetic interference etc which have been shown under laboratory conditions to induce so-called "relgious experiences".

I'm not saying its mental illness, I'm saying its a difference in the wiring of the brain and a physical, measureable trait (though we may not possess the technology to measure it just yet). Similar to being able to roll your tongue or being "double jointed", its merely the result of a number of genes interacting and expressing as a predisposition towards "religious experience".

What would be very interesting would be a statistical analysis to ascertain how many people actually exhibit this brain condition and how many lack the specific receptiveness to have induced spiritual halucinations.

MooseJam

Hivemind187 wrote:

According to the info I can find it seems that atheists or more accurately, those who are not predisposed towards spiritual experiences, appear to be less receptive to certain extrenal factors such as electromagnetic interference etc which have been shown under laboratory conditions to induce so-called "relgious experiences".

interesting, one more reason for not living beside an electricity pylon, it'll turn you into a fundie

lookinforpicnic

Hivemind187 wrote:

According to the info I can find it seems that atheists or more accurately, those who are not predisposed towards spiritual experiences, appear to be less receptive to certain extrenal factors such as electromagnetic interference etc which have been shown under laboratory conditions to induce so-called "relgious experiences".
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Could you expand here, I'm not aware of these studies. Electromagnetic interference causing religious experiences sounds very suspect to me. By receptive here do you mean it is a sensory issue or that some how the brain directly responds to these EM radiation as it permeates the skull, the latter I would think is nonsense, the former I would argue that it requires a huge leap of speculative thinking to say that such sensory variability leads to variability in religious belief. And I don't think, bringing up genes for double jointed and rolling your tongue helps at all, it is just misleading, someone can't influence your ability to roll your tongue by asking or preaching to you!

Bottle_of_Smoke

lookinforpicnic wrote:

Could you expand here, I'm not aware of these studies. Electromagnetic interference causing religious experiences sounds very suspect to me. By receptive here do you mean it is a sensory issue or that some how the brain directly responds to these EM radiation as it permeates the skull, the latter I would think is nonsense, the former I would argue that it requires a huge leap of speculative thinking to say that such sensory variability leads to variability in religious belief. And I don't think, bringing up genes for double jointed and rolling your tongue helps at all, it is just misleading, someone can't influence your ability to roll your tongue by asking or preaching to you!

I don't know about electromagnetic interferance but infrasound has been shown to make people feel "eery"

A lot of "haunted" sites have shown to have a high presence of infrasound.

So anyway if you're predisposed to sense infrasound it might leave your mind more open to suggestion & you could end up seeing/feeling things that aren't really there. Perhaps EM interferance does the same.

Scofflaw

Hmm. Wasn't one of the conclusions from the British MoD UFO studies the they may have been a side-effect (or effect) of electromagnetic changes? Might be in the current New Scientist.

cordially,
Scofflaw

lookinforpicnic

If the effects of EM radiation (outside of the visible spectrum) aren't due to a sensory system detecting them (which would contain variability), but instead due the effects it has directly on brain tissue, I can't see how different people of the same age group could have differential sensitivity to its effects, EM radiation effects all tissues in a non discriminatory manner.

Also if we are talking about genetically predisposition, we are talking about genes which could selected for simply down to effects of making brain tissue more susceptibly to EM radiation, I find this implausible, but I suppose it is a distinct possibility. The UFO study mentioned by Scofflaw, I think would contain a high dosage of EM radiation and probably have an effect on anybody, where the type of effect I would say is due more to the persons beliefs and how they interpret the strange hallucinatory effects rather than genes making those effects of a religious nature.

With the ultrasound effects, I think again preexisting beliefs and thus the interpretations they draw from such would have more influence on how they interpret 'eerie' feelings, than this sensitivity been selected for simply to make the person more religious/spiritual.

Hivemind187

lookinforpicnic wrote:

If the effects of EM radiation (outside of the visible spectrum) aren't due to a sensory system detecting them (which would contain variability), but instead due the effects it has directly on brain tissue, I can't see how different people of the same age group could have differential sensitivity to its effects, EM radiation effects all tissues in a non discriminatory manner.

Also if we are talking about genetically predisposition, we are talking about genes which could selected for simply down to effects of making brain tissue more susceptibly to EM radiation, I find this implausible, but I suppose it is a distinct possibility. The UFO study mentioned by Scofflaw, I think would contain a high dosage of EM radiation and probably have an effect on anybody, where the type of effect I would say is due more to the persons beliefs and how they interpret the strange hallucinatory effects rather than genes making those effects of a religious nature.

With the ultrasound effects, I think again preexisting beliefs and thus the interpretations they draw from such would have more influence on how they interpret 'eerie' feelings, than this sensitivity been selected for simply to make the person more religious/spiritual.

You're partly missing the point.

What I am referring to is a predisposition towards nervous and emotional responses to external electro-magnetic (or other types possibly) radiation. Genes are not selecteing to be disposed towards this but perhaps as a side effect of a particular expression of those genes. Either it was of no hindrance which would mean it wouldnt be selected against (highly likely) or its positive element outwieghed its drawback and thus would have been selected in favor of (slightly less likely).

You are also misunderstanding the concept, it is not the radiation that is causing a specific "religious" experience, you are right in saying it is the expression of experience and culture that gives the texture of the halucination, rather the radiation is a trigger of such experiences.

Apparently this is also linked to certain types of physical trauma suffered by the brain (schizophrenia, epilepsy etc) which can have similar results.

Remember that the mind interprets information based on its experience, you could apply the same methodology to a Muslim, Pagan or UFO-logist and get a result based on the most powerful imagery available to their memory.

The really interesting thing about this is when you consider that this kind of reaction may be actually influenced by drugs (the brain being an electro-chemical matrix). You could give a believer a pill and it might just curb the perception that they are speaking to god, rather than talking to themselves.

lookinforpicnic

Hivemind187 wrote:

You're partly missing the point.

What I am referring to is a predisposition towards nervous and emotional responses to external electro-magnetic (or other types possibly) radiation. Genes are not selecteing to be disposed towards this but perhaps as a side effect of a particular expression of those genes. Either it was of no hindrance which would mean it wouldnt be selected against (highly likely) or its positive element outwieghed its drawback and thus would have been selected in favor of (slightly less likely).

No, I don't think I am missing the point, what you are referring to is differential variation on the sensitivity (and its consequence triggering to be precise of religious experiences) to brain tissue to EM radiation.

First off, is there evidence that people (excluding different age groups) are differentially sensitive to EM radiation? In my search (brief I must admit) through the literature I couldn't find any evidence for this, and only found indiscrimatory effects on neuronal function (not specific to certain areas of the brain, but simply to neurons...but given different neurons depend more on certain in-house functions it could be possible you would get differential effects of EM radiation across different brain areas). If you have evidence for differential EM effects across different people pass it on please.

Hivemind187 wrote:

You are also misunderstanding the concept, it is not the radiation that is causing a specific "religious" experience, you are right in saying it is the expression of experience and culture that gives the texture of the halucination, rather the radiation is a trigger of such experiences.

Well my point which you seem to have missed particularly as you say later "Remember that the mind interprets information based on its experience" I know!, is that any effect down to our experiences with culture (which are very variable) would far outweigh any variability in effects to EM radiation (if there is any), as talk of genetic predisposition of religion for some and atheism for otherrequires variability in sensitivity to EM radiation and that such variability is not completely washed out with the variability in cultural effects.

Hivemind187 wrote:

Apparently this is also linked to certain types of physical trauma suffered by the brain (schizophrenia, epilepsy etc) which can have similar results.
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Irrelevant, there is many specific well documented neurodevelopmental brain abnormalites which result in these conditions, whereas the same is not through for the effects of EM radiation (particular the word 'specific' here, as in specific to certain cortical structures).

Let me know if you know of research to the contrary

Hivemind187

lookinforpicnic wrote:

No, I don't think I am missing the point, what you are referring to is differential variation on the sensitivity (and its consequence triggering to be precise of religious experiences) to brain tissue to EM radiation.

First off, is there evidence that people (excluding different age groups) are differentially sensitive to EM radiation? In my search (brief I must admit) through the literature I couldn't find any evidence for this, and only found indiscrimatory effects on neuronal function (not specific to certain areas of the brain, but simply to neurons...but given different neurons depend more on certain in-house functions it could be possible you would get differential effects of EM radiation across different brain areas). If you have evidence for differential EM effects across different people pass it on please.

Well my point which you seem to have missed particularly as you say later "Remember that the mind interprets information based on its experience" I know!, is that any effect down to our experiences with culture (which are very variable) would far outweigh any variability in effects to EM radiation (if there is any), as talk of genetic predisposition of religion for some and atheism for otherrequires variability in sensitivity to EM radiation and that such variability is not completely washed out with the variability in cultural effects.


Irrelevant, there is many specific well documented neurodevelopmental brain abnormalites which result in these conditions, whereas the same is not through for the effects of EM radiation (particular the word 'specific' here, as in specific to certain cortical structures).

Let me know if you know of research to the contrary

The research to the contrary is presented in the documentary I mentioned at the begining of this "Horizon: God on the Brain".

The specific point I am making is very simple.

Some peoples brains are more inclined to give them the physical sensation of "God" or "spirituality" etc ... it need not necessarily be perceived as god but that is the most likely interpretation you will get from a Western brain.

Whether someone gets a spiritual sensation or a sensation of being contacted by the lost atlanteans is irrelevant - the point is that some are more prone to these reactions or experiences because of their brain makeup.

lookinforpicnic

Hivemind187 wrote:

The research to the contrary is presented in the documentary I mentioned at the begining of this "Horizon: God on the Brain".

Well what i was talking about was the differential effect of EM radiation on the brain, and after reading an article on the documentary all I could tell was that Persinger just said it effects different people in different ways, merely anecdotal as far as I could tell. Again if you believe this to be true show me a peer reviewed journal that contradicts what I am saying.

Anyway in his experients he was applying EM fields of a high dosage, I'm not sure what he was doing but I'd say its either TMS (transcranial magnetic stimulation) or a milder version, the former is so powerful it causes virtually lesions in the brain (which obviously are going to effect people in all sorts of strange ways), the latter could also cause all sorts of effects. But this is not reflective of the normal environment and also temporal lobe epilepsy is not a reflection of the natural population.

An example, there is a condition called synaesthesia where people see colours (in the most common type) when they shouldn't (e.g. when they see a grapheme/letter), no one is claiming that it is going to provide the evolutionary basis of colour vision (or more specifically that learning symbols somehow contributes to colour vision), its just a malfunctioning quirk. Similarly these studies applying articifial dosages of EN radiation and temporal lobe epilepsy are applied to functional brains and thus are obviously going to have an effect of some sort, but I would argue that they tell us absolutely nothing about the evolution of religion.

Anyway I'm sure the brain (and individual neurons) have learned to buffer the effect of EM radiation on higher cognitive or perceptual functions as the brain evolved to function in such an environment, but when abnormal levels of EM radiation occur I suppose there could be effects (maybe in certain weather conditions there is more EM radiation...I don't know?, like the UFO stuff).
But if again you are saying that in these conditions some people are more likely to have religious experiences, well then again its not reflective of the natural population living in in normal EM conditions.

All this talk anyway I think is superflous as cultural factors are going to far outweigh any minute, transient EM effects

Hivemind187 wrote:

The specific point I am making is very simple.

Some peoples brains are more inclined to give them the physical sensation of "God" or "spirituality" etc ... it need not necessarily be perceived as god but that is the most likely interpretation you will get from a Western brain.

My point is simple too..at present I don't think we have evidence to conclude this, and even if we did (to repeat) the effect of culture would far outweigh any influence. As the variability in culture experiences would wipe out any small differences there could be in the effects of normal dosages of EM radiation to normal brains.

This is just pop science crap as far I am concerned.

Hivemind187 wrote:

Whether someone gets a spiritual sensation or a sensation of being contacted by the lost atlanteans is irrelevant - the point is that some are more prone to these reactions or experiences because of their brain makeup.

No I don't think it is irrelevant, some person might say they feel ill some person might say they feel strange, while a religious person i.e. someone indoctrinated with the curse of religion, might say they feel the presence of god. In such an example culture as already done all the necessary ground work not differential sensitivities to EM radiation (which is just left to, on some occasions, amplify this belief. But i suppose if this is all true I will concede that there may be a few converted, but a very minor effect in the grand scheme of things).

robindch

Whatever about Persinger's "god helmets" or being genetically predisposed towards being atheistic, it does seem that those of us on the liberal side of the fence just don't "get" people on the other side. Turns out, according to some strands of recent research, that some people worry about something called "ritual purity" a lot more than others, and that this purity is equivalent to a intangible "morality":

http://www.newyorker.com/online/video/conference/2007/haidt

Haidt's description of the liberal position is not accurate in places, but he does raise interesting points about the psychology of conservatives.

(apologies if this link has been posted before; can't recall where I came across this one).