We're racist, as we never knew they were coming?

the_syco

Was reading Kevin Myers article in todays Indo (page 22), about how we're not to blame for not building schools for Africans that just came here. That the Catholics aren't to blame for prefering Catholics to anyone else, in their private schools.

Yes. I said it. Private schools. The Catholic schools are not public schools. They're privately run, funded, and the selection process is done by the Catholics.

But that's not PC, is it? Before a PC twat moans, I tell them: try to get a jew into the Islamic madrasahs. Whats wrong? Why can't they get in? And then answer me this: why should the Catholic church bend over backwards, but not them?

Also my first point. 20 or so Africans refugees get off the plane from (bloody magical non-existant direct-flight), and as they gave no advance notice that they were coming, it's our fault for not relaising that they'd come, thus it's our fault that we don't have enough schools for them?:rolleyes:

Bullsh|t. We barely have enough places for the Irish who booked their places 5 years ago, when their child was born, so how the f*ck are we to have places for people who just hopped off the plane, and want to skip the waiting list, cos they're "refugees"?

In the land of the Red Cow Round-the-Bend, they expect us to have stuff ready, for people who we don't know are coming?

Oh, and before someone says "the Irish went to America", the 400,000 that came here so far, would be like 45 million people going to the US. We don't have the infastructure to cope.

uberwolf

I've nothing else to do today except monitor this thread. So careful now.

themole

the_syco wrote:

Was reading Kevin Myers article in todays Indo (page 22), about how we're not to blame for not building schools for Africans that just came here. That the Catholics aren't to blame for prefering Catholics to anyone else, in their private schools.

Yes. I said it. Private schools. The Catholic schools are not public schools. They're privately run, funded, and the selection process is done by the Catholics.

But that's not PC, is it? Before a PC twat moans, I tell them: try to get a jew into the Islamic madrasahs. Whats wrong? Why can't they get in? And then answer me this: why should the Catholic church bend over backwards, but not them?

Also my first point. 20 or so Africans refugees get off the plane from (bloody magical non-existant direct-flight), and as they gave no advance notice that they were coming, it's our fault for not relaising that they'd come, thus it's our fault that we don't have enough schools for them?:rolleyes:

Bullsh|t. We barely have enough places for the Irish who booked their places 5 years ago, when their child was born, so how the f*ck are we to have places for people who just hopped off the plane, and want to skip the waiting list, cos they're "refugees"?

In the land of the Red Cow Round-the-Bend, they expect us to have stuff ready, for people who we don't know are coming?

Oh, and before someone says "the Irish went to America", the 400,000 that came here so far, would be like 45 million people going to the US. We don't have the infastructure to cope.

Agreed.

Iompair

Not sure about all of the OP but I'd agree with the point about catholic schools being pressured to take in non-catholics.

That most of our primary schools are run by the catholic church and not by the goverment is our own fault and is something that needs to be remedied as soon as possible.

I'm not sure how, maybe the goverment could buy the schools or the church could step back and donate them to community groups without the restrictions on having a priest on the board and a bishop as chairperson.

Zombrex

the_syco wrote:

Yes. I said it. Private schools. The Catholic schools are not public schools. They're privately run, funded, and the selection process is done by the Catholics.

Good reason to get rid of them and have proper public, secular, schools run by the State, rather than funding private religious schools that encourage segregation based on religious boundaries.

the_syco wrote:

But that's not PC, is it? Before a PC twat moans, I tell them: try to get a jew into the Islamic madrasahs. Whats wrong? Why can't they get in? And then answer me this: why should the Catholic church bend over backwards, but not them?

Because the Catholic Church owes 90% of schools in Ireland and they don't want the State to turn them all into proper public, secular, schools ... ? Just a thought

Remember the State allows the religions to run these schools and provides them with public money to do so. If the religions cannot provide a proper educational service for all children in Ireland then someone else will have to.

the_syco wrote:

20 or so Africans refugees get off the plane from (bloody magical non-existant direct-flight), and as they gave no advance notice that they were coming

I'm pretty sure most African refugees ring a head ...

flogen

Most of them aren't private schools, though. They're public schools.

The church is just traditionally the body asked by the Government to manage the schools, which is why people have the perception that they're Catholic schools.

It's not a question of the Government buying back the schools, they can just find a new management board - although in many cases the schools are built on church land, which complicates matters somewhat.

themole

flogen wrote:

Most of them aren't private schools, though. They're public schools.

The church is just traditionally the body asked by the Government to manage the schools, which is why people have the perception that they're Catholic schools.

It's not a question of the Government buying back the schools, they can just find a new management board - although in many cases the schools are built on church land, which complicates matters somewhat.

In a lot of cases the church owns the land and the school itself. They are free at any stage to shut it down and sell the lot as has happend in a few places.

vandermeyde

The aul school chestnut normally raises a few hackles so it'll be interesting to see how this thread goes...

I live in West Dublin myself and 2 of my kids are in one of the "catholics first" schools that have been making the news recently.

Our school is full to the rafters with nearly 150 kids applying for places over and above the no. of places which were available for starters this year. there has to be some kind of screening and if the school has a catholic ethos that's as legitimate a ground to restrict no's. as taking kids who have brothers/sisters in the school first.

Schools in Ireland traditionally have been planned, paid for and built by communities predominantly through community funding via the Catholic church. Most are built on church owned land. the state was happy enough to let this happen because it removed a major burden on the public finances, nowadays with the move towards secularisation people have a problem with the "ethos" of a school but the weight of history is what stands against them.

The fact of the matter is if it wasn't for the catholic church and more latterly the educate together groupings we'd have NO schools in this country.

It's a bit like blaming the GAA for not allowing the local soccer team to play on the fields that they planned for, built and maintained over the years.

Jackie laughlin

I'm quite certain the kids that I saw on TV last night had not just stepped off a plane. A black mother who was interviewed had an accent strong enough to rate her as Irish.

Traditionally schools in this state have been denominational. It allowed the Catholic church to dominate education and to fill kids heads with illiberal, cruel notions. Eventually parents began to found non-denominational schools. In the meantime the Catholic church went into decline and the kids are no longer fed unacceptable viewpoints, or - where it continues - the kids don't pay a blind bit of notice.

The major reason why we must urgently introduce secular education is to prevent Irish Islamic kids being fed the same sort of nonsense that has had to be overcome in Catholic schools: gender inequality, obedience to authority, condemnation of homosexuality etc.

CerebralCortex

vandermeyde wrote:

.....The fact of the matter is if it wasn't for the catholic church.....we'd have NO schools in this country...

What do you mean by that?

themole

Jackie laughlin wrote:

The major reason why we must urgently introduce secular education is to prevent Irish Islamic kids being fed the same sort of nonsense that has had to be overcome in Catholic schools: gender inequality, obedience to authority, condemnation of homosexuality etc.

Thats a good point. I would like to see secular schools being built, but the whole school system cannot be changed over night.

Liam Byrne

vandermeyde wrote:

It's a bit like blaming the GAA for not allowing the local soccer team to play on the fields that they planned for, built and maintained over the years.

I agree, but the problem arises when the Government gives out grants and funding......at what stage does it go from being a Catholic school to being a state school ?

There's no 100% right and wrong, but there are 2 considerations:

1) If you build a playground for YOUR kids, should other kids be allowed to use it ? Should you be able to say who can and can't come in ?

Now, if you got some bit of a grant for that, does the argument still apply ?

At what level of a grant should the argument stop applying ?

2) Since there's some fierce venom against the CC in the thread, with some posts about what they've put into people's heads, why would someone with those views want to send their kids to a Catholic school in the first place ?

3) When are we going to get the balance right ? WE have to bow down to immigrants' customs (headgear for Gardai, burcas, etc, etc) but when it comes to the CC, everyone decides that ITS traditions and customs can be thrown out the window to accommodate everyone else ?

Yup, there have been some serious issues with the CC, but people tar the whole church; in the meantime, Islamist correctly point out that not everyone involved in Islam is a psychotic terrorist, and that view is accepted; why is that view not accepted for the CC ?

There's a balance in there somewhere, and we need to find it - FAST - before the resulting imbalance in give-and-take results in serious racism from one side or the other.

BTW, I'm not religious - not in the organised religion sense, considering that all I've ever seen religion do is segregate people, cause war and strife and illogical hatred. All the good that religion does could be done without religion and without that baggage. So I'm no apologist for the CC, but I REALLY think that we need to treat EVERYONE equally, and that INCLUDES the CC and "our own".

Shutuplaura

Jackie laughlin wrote:

In the meantime the Catholic church went into decline and the kids are no longer fed unacceptable viewpoints, or - where it continues - the kids don't pay a blind bit of notice.

The major reason why we must urgently introduce secular education is to prevent Irish Islamic kids being fed the same sort of nonsense that has had to be overcome in Catholic schools: gender inequality, obedience to authority, condemnation of homosexuality etc.

Watched a Richard Dawkins programme recently?

Kids spend the last majority of their time in the home - or away from school anyway. Primary scholl is about seven hours a day, 180 days a year or something like that. Blaming religious schools for sexism, rascism and homophobia is just daft, they learn most if not all of their worldview at home. If you don't believe me ask any teacher. Or look on the streets. Full of litter. I left primary school 15 years ago and even back then it was drilled into kids not to litter, without success. Why do schools fail to do that simple thing yet still according to you churn out bucketloads of sexist rascist fascist homophobes? Why can the church make people so reactionary while at school yet not stauch the bloodloss to their congregations? With respect i think its bordering on lazy and naive reasoning to bash the church and not society as a whole.

As regards the main question - I dunno it sounds just like an excuse to bash minority groups

uberwolf

Shutuplaura wrote:

Christ, watched a Richard Dawkins programme recently?

Foolish, lazy reasoning

all in your humble opinion naturally. Keep your opinions to the post, and not the poster.

Shutuplaura

!

Didn't mean to sound insulting. In my defence I meant reasoning of that nature was foolish and lazy, not the poster. I think Jackie understands but I'll edit anyway. Its also not my humble opinion but the opinion of many educators. Its basic first month of the Hdip Theory of Education stuff. (Just like to add that)

flogen

Liam Byrne wrote:

When are we going to get the balance right ? WE have to bow down to immigrants' customs (headgear for Gardai, burcas, etc, etc) but when it comes to the CC, everyone decides that ITS traditions and customs can be thrown out the window to accommodate everyone else ?

Firstly, you may have missed the discussion but religious headgear is banned in the Gardaí.

Secondly there's nothing wrong with a religion teaching its beliefs to those who want to follow and there's nothing I've found in Catholic religious custom about denying children their right to an education or discriminating against said child because of what their parents chose to believe.

But when it becomes the effective gatekeeper to a child's education and makes a certain religion the reason for denying such it isn't a matter of them acting in a traditional manner, it's about them denying a child their rights.

When demand outstrips supply it's a sad fact that some children will be turned away from a school. There's a certain logic to giving priority to those who have siblings in the school and there's no argument against the school looking at an application on a one by one basis rather than just a lucky dip. But had the school in question just let students in on criteria other than their religion (like their temperament, their abilities in certain subjects) then this debate wouldn't have arisen. But because it decided that a child must agree with the Catholic church if it wants to have an education it has drawn attention upon itself and the question of secular schools in general.

I don't expect the situation to change over night or the Government to do anything about it. I would expect a school to put the education of a child above their religious beliefs, however, as they are entrusted by the school to educate not to indoctrinate.

grahamo

the_syco wrote:

Was reading Kevin Myers article in todays Indo (page 22), about how we're not to blame for not building schools for Africans that just came here. That the Catholics aren't to blame for prefering Catholics to anyone else, in their private schools.

Yes. I said it. Private schools. The Catholic schools are not public schools. They're privately run, funded, and the selection process is done by the Catholics.

But that's not PC, is it? Before a PC twat moans, I tell them: try to get a jew into the Islamic madrasahs. Whats wrong? Why can't they get in? And then answer me this: why should the Catholic church bend over backwards, but not them?

Also my first point. 20 or so Africans refugees get off the plane from (bloody magical non-existant direct-flight), and as they gave no advance notice that they were coming, it's our fault for not relaising that they'd come, thus it's our fault that we don't have enough schools for them?:rolleyes:

Bullsh|t. We barely have enough places for the Irish who booked their places 5 years ago, when their child was born, so how the f*ck are we to have places for people who just hopped off the plane, and want to skip the waiting list, cos they're "refugees"?

In the land of the Red Cow Round-the-Bend, they expect us to have stuff ready, for people who we don't know are coming?

Oh, and before someone says "the Irish went to America", the 400,000 that came here so far, would be like 45 million people going to the US. We don't have the infastructure to cope.

Well Said! The PC gob****es are just going too far these days. I had to put my kids names down for a school place when they were still babies. Why should anybody, no matter what colour, creed etc. they are jump queues. Refugees should put up with exactly the same ****e the rest of us have to.

purple'n'gold

Also my first point. 20 or so Africans refugees get off the plane from (bloody magical non-existant direct-flight), and as they gave no advance notice that they were coming, it's our fault for not relaising that they'd come, thus it's our fault that we don't have enough schools for them?

First up, the 20 or so "refugees" should be sent straight back where they came from. There are no direct flights from Africa to Ireland. They obviously came from a third country, so they should be detained in the airport and sent back there on the next available plane.

Zebra3

I have no problem with papist schools turning away non-RC kids, but the responsibility lies with the state to provide an education for non-RC kids-Irish or not.

The current situation is a sad hangover from the RC-ruling past as the state has allowed them almost a complete monopoly on education and it has sadly encouraged people who couldn't give a toss about religion to register the kids with the Roman church and wrongly boost their numbers.

It's up to the state to start providing schools for both non-RC kids and RC kids whose parents don't want them brought up in a segregated school system.

Shutuplaura

purplengold wrote:

Also my first point. 20 or so Africans refugees get off the plane from (bloody magical non-existant direct-flight), and as they gave no advance notice that they were coming, it's our fault for not relaising that they'd come, thus it's our fault that we don't have enough schools for them?

First up, the 20 or so "refugees" should be sent straight back where they came from. There are no direct flights from Africa to Ireland. They obviously came from a third country, so they should be detained in the airport and sent back there on the next available plane.

How can you blame asylum seekers and not the successive Irish governments which have seriously underfunded education for decades? Thats the issue really. They country's population is expanding in line with our prosperity and the education system can't cope becasue of years of fund starvation. Blaming a few refugees for that is crazy.

They probably also did go through another European country to get here. So what? Should we only accept refugees how come accross in container lorries or wee boats?

seamus

Wicknight wrote:

Good reason to get rid of them and have proper public, secular, schools run by the State, rather than funding private religious schools that encourage segregation based on religious boundaries.

Because the Catholic Church owes 90% of schools in Ireland and they don't want the State to turn them all into proper public, secular, schools ... ? Just a thought

Remember the State allows the religions to run these schools and provides them with public money to do so. If the religions cannot provide a proper educational service for all children in Ireland then someone else will have to.

I'm finding myself agreeing with Wicknight an awful lot these days...

The crux of the matter here is that we need now to provide secular education. It was grand back in the past when everyone was still afraid of JP 2 and the issue of multi-denominationalism didn't really exist. I've no problem with providing "Religious Education" in public schools, provided that it's not biased towards any one religion. Perhaps a brief history of religion or something.
If the Catholic Church is unwilling to adopt this approach, then the schools must be taken from them or they must forfeit any public funding and go private. If parents still wish to send their children to a religiously biased school, then they can send them to any of the thousands of private schools in the country.

A public education should be a secular education - it doesn't matter who is running the schools. If a public school was teaching Islam in class, favouring Muslim applicants and bringing the children to Muslim religious services, there'd be uproar.

Zambia

I went to a CC school and cant remember being drilled in anything in paticular to be against gay rights , etc ... The cc has a position on most issues like all religon's and in general I see most catholics bear them in mind and do what they feel is right anyway.

As for the question of immigrant children in schools well the fact of the matter is we should have places for them as it is not illegal to immigrate to ireland legally? We should not be forced to place our kids names on registers 5 years in advance. That is the issue we have to address.

As far as state schools go well if the goverment wants to build a school in every district to replace the CC alternative well i say let them go ahead and when completed the CC school can increase fees to to replace the funding provided by the state.

Its a fact that while planning permisson was handed out for housing in the late 80's early 90's taht no thought was given to the support networks required for 500 - 1000 red brick houses.

Basically the forward planning of the goverment is at fault here. Coupled with the inabilty to control and maintain an effective barrier to illegal immigration.

purple'n'gold

They probably also did go through another European country to get here. So what? Should we only accept refugees how come accross in container lorries or wee boats?

we should only accept people who are here legally, end of story.
And yes, The illegal Irish in the USA should all be rounded up and sent home.

Shutuplaura

seamus wrote:

A public education should be a secular education - it doesn't matter who is running the schools. If a public school was teaching Islam in class, favouring Muslim applicants and bringing the children to Muslim religious services, there'd be uproar.

Yes, I agree with your last point 100%. Public schools should be secular. The situation in Ireland has allowed to develop because the state was unwilling/unable to organise education on its own so i leaned on the Church for help. Church schools required less funding becasue the CC made up the difference. When i last taught about 5 years ago it was still the case that pupils in CC schools still recieved less per head than in the state school across the road. Now the state finally has the money the situation should be laid to rest.

Purple n'Gold - Fair enough, if thats what you think good luck to you. Its pretty xenophobic but if your happy with then so am I.

flogen

I love the way certain posters here are desperately trying to turn this into an asylum/immigration issue.

The kids were turned away because they weren't catholic, not because they were from another country or because their parents were asylum seekers.

If they were 10th generation Irish they would have been turned away too because of their religion. Indeed if they were CoI they would have been refused too, I assume.

Can people stop trying to drag this into an area that is largely irrelevant to it?

grahamo wrote:

Well Said! The PC gob****es are just going too far these days. I had to put my kids names down for a school place when they were still babies. Why should anybody, no matter what colour, creed etc. they are jump queues. Refugees should put up with exactly the same ****e the rest of us have to.

Who said anything about queue skipping? The point is that they're not even being allowed on the queue.

comewatmay

the_syco wrote:

Was reading Kevin Myers article in todays Indo (page 22), about how we're not to blame for not building schools for Africans that just came here. That the Catholics aren't to blame for prefering Catholics to anyone else, in their private schools.

Yes. I said it. Private schools. The Catholic schools are not public schools. They're privately run, funded, and the selection process is done by the Catholics.

But that's not PC, is it? Before a PC twat moans, I tell them: try to get a jew into the Islamic madrasahs. Whats wrong? Why can't they get in? And then answer me this: why should the Catholic church bend over backwards, but not them?

Also my first point. 20 or so Africans refugees get off the plane from (bloody magical non-existant direct-flight), and as they gave no advance notice that they were coming, it's our fault for not relaising that they'd come, thus it's our fault that we don't have enough schools for them?:rolleyes:

Bullsh|t. We barely have enough places for the Irish who booked their places 5 years ago, when their child was born, so how the f*ck are we to have places for people who just hopped off the plane, and want to skip the waiting list, cos they're "refugees"?

In the land of the Red Cow Round-the-Bend, they expect us to have stuff ready, for people who we don't know are coming?

Oh, and before someone says "the Irish went to America", the 400,000 that came here so far, would be like 45 million people going to the US. We don't have the infastructure to cope.

I concur

grahamo

Shutuplaura wrote:

How can you blame asylum seekers and not the successive Irish governments which have seriously underfunded education for decades? Thats the issue really. They country's population is expanding in line with our prosperity and the education system can't cope becasue of years of fund starvation. Blaming a few refugees for that is crazy.

They probably also did go through another European country to get here. So what? Should we only accept refugees how come accross in container lorries or wee boats?

Yes! If they have come through another European country they are no longer refugees, they are illegal immigrants.

uberwolf

grahamo wrote:

[/COLOR]

Yes! If they have come through another European country they are no longer refugees, they are illegal immigrants.

for the sake of this thread all children are legally resident in this state. Find/Start another thread if you want to discuss illegal immigrants.

Zambia

MY overall view of the school funding System is the state pays all teachers regardless of weather they are in a private or public school. Please can anyone confirm this.

Surely it is a religous freedom to have your children raised in your own faith I see no issue with any religous schools. I doubt the irish goverment builds any religous schools on behalf of one religon.

I repeat the previous piont there should be enough secular schools to cater for the population. Religous schools should be allowed run in tandem. The catholic schools filled a huge vacum that the state was happy to let them fill along with protestant schools. We have seen threads on parents trying to pass kids as catholic to avail of a closer/better school.

If a religous school can survive (enough number)alongside with a secular one then the state should fund one wholy and the teachers in the other.

If there is a huge waiting list then that is what has to be addressed

the_syco

Shutuplaura wrote:

How can you blame asylum seekers and not the successive Irish governments which have seriously underfunded education for decades? Thats the issue really. They country's population is expanding in line with our prosperity and the education system can't cope becasue of years of fund starvation. Blaming a few refugees for that is crazy.

Our country is expanding, and the schools are barely coping. So yes, when a massive influx from abroad comes in, the massive influx can be blamed.

Shutuplaura wrote:

They probably also did go through another European country to get here. So what? Should we only accept refugees how come accross in container lorries or wee boats?

Asyulm seekers seek asylum in the first country they come to, and not the 2nd, 3rd, 4th or 5th. Go back to Italy, if that's the first country you came to.

Wicknight wrote:

Good reason to get rid of them and have proper public, secular, schools run by the State, rather than funding private religious schools that encourage segregation based on religious boundaries.

Agreed. But I wonder where the money would come from, though? The hostipals?

=-=

For a country that is surrounded by miles of water, the immigration policy has gone to the dogs.

But the question is: how come we're still letting them in, when we can't cope?

lostexpectation

there is not enough schools even for Irishirish people, Im not saying look after ours first im saying its up to the state to provide (secular) schools its in the constitution, they are the ones who abdicated responsibility.

I don't expect parents on ET to build their own schools I want 100% school funding please gov

im sick of people saying that sf or lab are pro-immigration, its ff and fg a d pd that are pro immigration there economic policies depend soley on cheap labour.