We're racist, as we never knew they were coming?

lostexpectation

the_syco wrote:

Was reading Kevin Myers article in todays Indo (page 22), about how we're not to blame for not building schools for Africans that just came here. That the Catholics aren't to blame for prefering Catholics to anyone else, in their private schools.

Yes. I said it. Private schools. The Catholic schools are not public schools. They're privately run, funded, and the selection process is done by the Catholics.

so what your saying is if there is we have no state education at all in this country? no public schools?

mike65

If Catholics want a Catholic education they can pay for it at a private school.
The rest of us should be able to send children to state run and financed school for a 'catholic' education.

As for the current shortfall, regardless of immigrants the school building programme is pathetic and of course based on a pack of assumptions and restrictions regarding the nonsense that could be ended if the state took charge! - see first paragraph.

This subject got about 10 mins on the BBC radio flagship The World Tonight yesterday. clicky, select the listen again for Tueday and move the seek bar to just past 50%

Mike.

silverharp

vandermeyde wrote:

The fact of the matter is if it wasn't for the catholic church and more latterly the educate together groupings we'd have NO schools in this country.

That's nonsense, the fact that a system evolves a certain way does not preclude an alternate system under different circumstances. If the present generation has largely moved on then it seems silly to to be held ransomed to the past. I feel sorry for people who feel they have to baptise their kids even though they don't have a religious bone in their body so that they can get into the local school. What a message to give your kids, ie it's ok to lie and cheat to advance your own interests

Zombrex

the_syco wrote:

Agreed. But I wonder where the money would come from, though? The hostipals?

What you think the money comes from the churches?

We already pay for these schools.

the_syco wrote:

For a country that is surrounded by miles of water, the immigration policy has gone to the dogs.

The immigration policy seems to be working perfectly fine. This isn't an issue about immigration, it is an issue about education policy and secularism.

But it seems nothing can happen in Ireland these days without someone going "See! See! I told you multi-culturalism was a bad idea! See!"

This problem did exist before immigration and would still exist if we had no immigration.

the_syco wrote:

But the question is: how come we're still letting them in, when we can't cope?

Letting who in? Irish born children?

As someone else asked, why is this turning into a debate about immigration? Most if not all these children are Irish born. This isn't to do with them being black, or children of immigrants. It is to do with them being non-Catholic.

This issue is making the headlines now, but it has always been there.

Non-Catholic families have always struggled to get their children into schools because 98% of schools in Ireland are run by the Catholic Church which are legally allowed to discriminate based on religion.

This is simply becoming more and more of an issue as the population of Ireland, native and immigrant, become less and less Catholic.

The ridiculous nature of our education system was eventually going to run into this problem. If it wasn't due to non-Catholic immigration it would be the fact that more and more native Irish are become agnostic or atheist, or switching to religions such as Islam.

The Corinthian

The reason for the current dilemma is, in part, that the Irish government was happy enough to abdicate responsibility for schooling to the Roman Catholic Church for many years.

Secondly there are very few schools to begin with. Remember, non-Catholic kids are not barred from going to Catholic schools, it's just that Catholics have first preference. This is their business to do so - that they are getting public money is simply a result of that aforementioned historical abdication of responsibility by the government.

If there were enough school places this would simply not be an issue, but because it is - because we are in a position whereby we have to put our kids on a waiting list the moment they're born - there are simply not enough places there to keep up with the present population explosion and this is the principle problem, not that poor little non-Catholics are being excluded.

Zombrex

lostexpectation wrote:

no public schools?

As far as I'm aware we don't, at least not like "public" schools in America that are run by the local school boards.

Most if not all of the schools in Ireland are privately owned, most by religious groups, some by parents themselves. They receive funding by the government, but the government doesn't own them.

Because of this they are allowed to decide themselves who they want to go to the school, and the religious schools obviously pick members of the religion first before selecting members of other religions.

Nevyn

lostexpectation wrote:

so what your saying is if there is we have no state education at all in this country? no public schools?

There are a handful state secondary schools and that is it.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/education/primary-and-post-primary-education/going-to-primary-school/ownership_of_schools

The vast majority of primary schools in Ireland are privately owned and supported by the different churches. The state pays the bulk of the building and running costs and a local contribution is made towards the running costs.

National schools are privately owned - in general by the relevant church authorities. In the case of Catholic schools, the owners are usually the diocesan trustees; the same is true for Church of Ireland schools. Other denominational schools usually have a board of trustees nominated by the church authorities. Multi-denominational schools are usually owned by a limited company or board of trustees.

Gaelscoileanna may be denominational and come under the same patronage as Catholic schools but some have their own limited company.

This is not just about children who are not irish but also about children who are not of a parish ( ie christian ) and the schools are set up not for the children in the community but the children of the parish.

Victor

purplengold wrote:

There are no direct flights from Africa to Ireland.

You might tell that to Ryanair, Aer Lingus, Jet2, Spanair and a bunch of others. I suspect the aircrew might be bunking off some of the flights.

purple'n'gold

Victor wrote:

You might tell that to Ryanair, Aer Lingus, Jet2, Spanair and a bunch of others. I suspect the aircrew might be bunking off some of the flights.

you are probably talking about charter flights to and from north African holiday destinations?

Jackie laughlin

Shutuplaura,
The last Richard Dawkins progs I watched were two about irrational beliefs. I generally agree with Dawkins but have a few points of disagreement. I don't understand the relevance of your question/comment.

Of course I don't think that schools are alone responsible for the inculcation of values. On the contrary we often look to schools to undo some of the values taught at home, e.g. we expect schools to impart a love of learning, ambition, oppsition to bullying etc. etc. My point is that it is now urgent that action is taken so that Islamic Irish kids will have illiberal, cruel values undermined at school.

FatherTed

Who actually funds public schools e.g. Nation Schools for Primary education etc? Is it the Government or the Catholic Church? I always thought the Government funded schools but the CC controlled the Board etc.

fly_agaric

I think there are two issues being confused in this thread. The religious nature of the education system (which will become increasingly ridiculous as practicing Catholics head towards becoming a minority in the state) and mass-immigration.

The population is increasing very rapidly while our education system (complete with overcrowded classes, rathole primary schools etc) is not exactly over-resoursed now is it?

Even if the schools were drawing lots rather than making a catholics-first there would still be parents/children who get to draw the short straw.
This pressure on school places problem (without the added issue of discrimination in entry) recurs each Sept, the media/politicians pay momentary attention to the problems of the commuter belts of Ireland, then forget about it till next year.:)

wes

Jackie laughlin wrote:

Of course I don't think that schools are alone responsible for the inculcation of values. On the contrary we often look to schools to undo some of the values taught at home, e.g. we expect schools to impart a love of learning, ambition, oppsition to bullying etc. etc. My point is that it is now urgent that action is taken so that Islamic Irish kids will have illiberal, cruel values undermined at school.

Yes, because every Muslim parent raises there children to have cruel, illiberal values. Go figure, my mother must have done a terrible job raising me with those cruel illiberal values or something. Oh wait, no she didn't raise me with cruel, illiberal values at all. In fact she did a fine job of bringing me up. Plenty of other Muslim parents bring up there kids just fine too.

Nice of you to lump all Muslim parents as teaching there children cruel illiberal values.

Anyway, back to the topic at hand. Our schools system is a mess, its hardly the fault of immigrants. Its bad planning plain and simple, a lot of the countries infrastructure and not just the schools are not up to the task of handling the increased population. This needs to be sorted out asap, as our long term economic viability will suffer immensely if we don't.

DublinWriter

the_syco wrote:

Was reading Kevin Myers article in todays Indo (page 22), about how we're not to blame for not building schools for Africans that just came here. That the Catholics aren't to blame for prefering Catholics to anyone else, in their private schools.

Yes, but yet we're more than willing to accept into the country what I term 'journalistic migrants'; i.e. also-rans such as Myers and Mary Ellen-Synon who can't cut the mustard in the U.K. media and run over here for cushy jobs cranking out quasi-racist opinion-pieces.

Firstly, you have to take into account that Ireland was the first country in Europe to have a state-funded Islamic primary school (Clonskea, 1992). I'm particularly fond of that fact.

Secondly, if you don't like the way the RC establishment are running schools then get off yer arses and establish your own agnostic school.

Thirdly, look at the amount of Catholic parents clamouring to send their kids to the COI schools in Wicklow because of their superior acamdeic record.

Fourtly, see all those African migrants? Their kids will be paying for your state pension sooner than you realise and will also be playing GAA for your county.

Don't ever forget the rich-irony that Myers himself is an economic migrant from the UK.

Jackie laughlin

It's just not good enough to compel agnostics or atheists to start schools. I had little option but to send my kids to RC schools. This was after the hey day of Catholicism, so no harm was done.

The problem for a parent with progressive values - or nowadays mainstream decent and tolerant values - is not the God question but the the values which are taught in a religious school. Belief in God and belief that, say, homosexuality is evil are not necessarily linked.

My fears for Islamic kids don't rest on any notion that their parents are Islamic extremists. Clearly they are not. The problem is that the these Irish kids are being taught that women and men are not equal (Please, please spare me the specious, different-but-equal argument.) and that homosexuality is evil. An irish child going to school should be liberated by attendance and not have this nonsense confirmed.

wes

Jackie laughlin wrote:

My fears for Islamic kids don't rest on any notion that their parents are Islamic extremists. Clearly they are not. The problem is that the these Irish kids are being taught that women and men are not equal (Please, please spare me the specious, different-but-equal argument.) and that homosexuality is evil. An irish child going to school should be liberated by attendance and not have this nonsense confirmed.

Not all Muslims will say that Women aren't equal to men. They certainly are. Homosexuality is not evil either. We all don't adhere to such ancient puritanism. I agree that such puritan values are wrong, but to say that every Muslim child would be raised to believe this is wrong, I was not brought up to believe this and many other won't either. As for being liberated by attending a secular school system, well it doesn't exist in this country, so until the government get its act together, hardly going to happen. I tend to think mixed secular schools are better, since children from different backgrounds get to mix.

Nevyn

The government were infact warned about this two years ago.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/0905/education.html?rss

The UN had warned the Government that the children of immigrants were in danger of being discriminated against in terms of admission to schools, it has emerged.

Two years ago a UN committee recommended that existing legislation needed to be amended to prevent this occurring.

The warning was repeated by another UN committee last year.
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In 2005 the UN's Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination told Ireland it was concerned that existing laws and practice would favour Catholic pupils in the admission to Catholic schools in case of shortage of places.

It went on to say that 'recognising the intersectionality of racial and religious discrimination' encouraged the State 'to promote the establishment of non-denominational or multi-denominational schools and to amend existing legislation so that no discrimination may take place as far as the admission of pupils (of all religions) to schools is concerned'.

Last September the UN's Committee on the Rights of the Child reiterated these concerns and again called on Ireland to amend legislation.

and again the government sat on it's arse and did nothing and still got re-elected.
Ireland has still not ratified the Un charter on the rights of the child and it is the status of the school in this country which is preventing this from happening.

The Corinthian

DublinWriter wrote:

Fourtly, see all those African migrants? Their kids will be paying for your state pension sooner than you realise and will also be playing GAA for your county.

Bit early to say. It's not certain they will stay or want to stay, to begin with. Also it's not certain that the situation here won't go the same way as it has in France (the children of their north African migrants are decidedly not paying for anyone's state pension).

Of course it may come to pass as you predict, but it is far to early to make such sweeping predictions.

the_syco

lostexpectation wrote:

so what your saying is if there is we have no state education at all in this country? no public schools?

No. I know of two schools that are not run by the Catholic Church. The waiting list is VERY long, though, on the one that is not religous(ask the Atheists: there was a thread last year about the lack of non-religous schools). The other one is a prosatant school.

wes wrote:

Its bad planning plain and simple

Look at the Red Cow roundabout, and the way our motorways have no stops along them, for further proof.

=-=

Can someone link me to these direct to Africa flights? IE: the ones from Africa direct to Ireland, not stopping anywhere along the way, please?

=-=

Anyhoo's, that is not my point. My point is that, with our schools bursting, the PC brigade is shouting that we're racist for not giving the refugees priority places. F*ck 'em, I say. Take care of our own first. As for being non-catholic, I pretty sure a lot of the African kids are catholic. Go to mass: you'll see loads of the new priests are from that part of the world, as the RC faith is strong over there.

Jackie laughlin, you must have not been in school for decades, unless you went to a CB's school, as the catholic schools teach equality, and have done for a long time.

Zambia

Jackie laughlin wrote:

It's just not good enough to compel agnostics or atheists to start schools. I had little option but to send my kids to RC schools. This was after the hey day of Catholicism, so no harm was done.

The problem for a parent with progressive values - or nowadays mainstream decent and tolerant values - is not the God question but the the values which are taught in a religious school. Belief in God and belief that, say, homosexuality is evil are not necessarily linked.

My fears for Islamic kids don't rest on any notion that their parents are Islamic extremists. Clearly they are not. The problem is that the these Irish kids are being taught that women and men are not equal (Please, please spare me the specious, different-but-equal argument.) and that homosexuality is evil. An irish child going to school should be liberated by attendance and not have this nonsense confirmed.

Jackie you yourself admit to sending your kids to a school that is run by a religon where Homosexuality is not accepted/is evil/is a sin. Then claim that the right of muslims to do the exact same should be stopped. (granted I gather you would like the RC version stopped to)while offering no evidence that this teaching does go on. It may be a fact that muslims think homosexuality is evil but there is no proof its drilled into them as wes has stated.

In fact I am not aware of any gay friendly religon?

You also state that its not enough to demand that secular schools be built. Well what else do you propse enforced buy out of the current RC, COI , other schools that have filled the gap till now including the education of your own kids.

If you want an american style secular school system well then hangs on to your tax brackets because you better be prepared to pay for it.

Nevyn

Zambia232 wrote:

In fact I am not aware of any gay friendly religon?

All of the neopagan ones, Hindu and Buddhism.

Zambia232 wrote:

You also state that its not enough to demand that secular schools be built. Well what else do you propse enforced buy out of the current RC, COI , other schools that have filled the gap till now including the education of your own kids.

For the equal education of all our children.

Zambia232 wrote:

If you want an american style secular school system well then hangs on to your tax brackets because you better be prepared to pay for it.

Actually we are already paying for the schools system here out of our taxes and in fund raising for the schools done by parents.

Jackie laughlin

It is indeed quite a while since I was at school.

My point is this: Catholic moral teaching is no longer a real danger in Ireland. I really don't want to have all those arguments over again this time with muslims.

Wes,
I must accept what you say. However, a spokesperson for the Clonskea mosque said on radio recently that Sharia law should be imposed where there was a Muslim majority. People who hold such a view should have no hand, act or part in running a school. Moreover, the media regularly feature Irish kids at the Islamic school and the little girls are veiled. (They look like a Children of Mary gathering from the 50s and it took Irish feminism a long and bitter time to smash that lot.) Finally, you are the first Muslim that I've heard say that Islam regards homosexuality as normal.

Jamar

From what was said on RTE, most of the children who did not get places in the RC school were born in Ireland; so by the constitution of the day (changed since) are Irish citizens. A bigger problem in this area in migration from other parts of Ireland, caused by developers building houses but nothing else. (Different thread probably).

However, these excluded children turn out to be nearly all from immigrant families. A serious question is how were these children filtered, and if this filter was racist.

If the filter was siblings in the school already, or the fact that 2nd+ generation Irish families had the nous to apply to schools very early, then probably this is not racist. However, the filter is being RC.

Statistically, if you had one question to divide children between those whose parents were born in the country, and those who were born outside the country, and the question could not be direct, and you did not know the skin colour of the family, what question would you ask?

I'd go with one about religion.

Now, we have a situation where the first lesson that quite a number of children learned is 'our school' and 'their school'. Soon, 'our neighbourhood' and 'their neighbourhood', and so on. That is something that we can see in other countries has serious consequences, and is something that we should want to avoid. IMO, the school situation is so seriously wrong that no reaction is strong enough - including re-allocating the children by proximity to school, siblings already attending, and then random lots.

BTW, I don't believe that there was intentional racism in action here, but if it walks like a duck, etc.

Hotblack Desiato

Zambia232 wrote:

You also state that its not enough to demand that secular schools be built. Well what else do you propse enforced buy out of the current RC, COI , other schools that have filled the gap till now including the education of your own kids.

Why not? Give them a choice - go 100% privately funded, or be nationalised.
The Constitution dictates that the State must not endow any religion, yet the State pays for religious indoctrination under the guise of education in every town in the country.
State funding should be for wholly secular education only.

If you want an american style secular school system well then hangs on to your tax brackets because you better be prepared to pay for it.

This is what makes my blood boil.
We bloody well do pay for it already!
The taxpayers pay the piper but the bishop calls the tune.
This has no place whatsoever in 21st century Ireland.
We talk a lot about equality and integration yet we fund religious discrimination and indoctrination with our taxes.

Zambia

ninja900 wrote:

State funding should be for wholly secular education only.


This is what makes my blood boil.
We bloody well do pay for it already!
The taxpayers pay the piper but the bishop calls the tune.
This has no place whatsoever in 21st century Ireland.
We talk a lot about equality and integration yet we fund religious discrimination and indoctrination with our taxes.

I see your piont's however the state pay for teachers salary's the state never built the schools or owns the land they stand on. What your maintaining isd that you want a secular system and instead of building it want to force religous schools some in place since independence to conform to secularism. Its a bit like a goverment forcing a secular school to go religous (eg Taliban).

In the case of forcing 100% private funding I still maintain teachers should be trained and paid for by the state to ensure a level playing field across all schools.

I would be very interested to know what the state actually funds in schools over the cost of teachers anybody know?

I agree there should be secular education in the majority and RC , muslim, etc schools on the fringes with parents having to pay more for the option to subsidise the upkeep of the religous school.

With waiting lists of 5 years well then there must be more than enough demand to satisfy the increase in schools.

In today's current market the land itself would be a serious blow to goverment finanaces. But like I said its going to cost big time.

Shutuplaura

Jackie laughlin wrote:

Shutuplaura,
The last Richard Dawkins progs I watched were two about irrational beliefs. I generally agree with Dawkins but have a few points of disagreement. I don't understand the relevance of your question/comment.

Sorry it was a joke. It was shown on ABC here recently and everyone in work has started talking about him like he's the new messiah. Funny really.

Jackie laughlin wrote:

My fears for Islamic kids don't rest on any notion that their parents are Islamic extremists. Clearly they are not. The problem is that the these Irish kids are being taught that women and men are not equal (Please, please spare me the specious, different-but-equal argument.) and that homosexuality is evil. An irish child going to school should be liberated by attendance and not have this nonsense confirmed.

Hi Jackie. I'm not sure what you mean? What have schools got to do with your fear of muslims? What kids are taught in their own homes is beyond mine or your or anybodys control. The home is where most kids learn most things and its not the state's job to bring them to school and convert them into humanists.

As someone esle said quite rightly, the church paid for these schools but the state pays the teachers. The state also gives money per pupil to each school. For religious schools the amount is (was anyway, it may have changed in the few years since i worked in a school) less than a tech or other state school. The church was expected to contribute the rest. It was the states way of saving money and while it may have been adequate in the past, its not now and the system has to change.

I found this at reland.com which sums it up nicely:

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/frontpage/2007/0906/1188603615536.html

Regards illegal emmigrants/asylum seekers etc. well i don't blame anyone for applying for residancy in mulitple countries. Why put all your eggs in one basket?

The Corinthian

Shutuplaura wrote:

Regards illegal emmigrants/asylum seekers etc. well i don't blame anyone for applying for residancy in mulitple countries. Why put all your eggs in one basket?

Is that in violation of the rules for such applications? If so are you condoning such violations?

wes

Jackie laughlin wrote:

Wes,
I must accept what you say. However, a spokesperson for the Clonskea mosque said on radio recently that Sharia law should be imposed where there was a Muslim majority. People who hold such a view should have no hand, act or part in running a school. Moreover, the media regularly feature Irish kids at the Islamic school and the little girls are veiled. (They look like a Children of Mary gathering from the 50s and it took Irish feminism a long and bitter time to smash that lot.) Finally, you are the first Muslim that I've heard say that Islam regards homosexuality as normal.

I personally disagree with Sharia law, even in Muslim majority states. I also disagree with a lot of stupid things said by Clonskea Mosque leaders. Btw, did he use the exact word "impose"? I remember hearing what your talking about, but the langauge was different, perhaps I am just remembering wrong.

As for veils in schools? Do you mean the face veil or head covering? I have only ever seen the head covering and not a veil. Also, a school get to decide it dress code. I really don't see the issue you have with it, in that you just don't like the Hijab, which is fair enough, but I don't see that causing many problems as a lot of these girls probably don't wear it at home. I know most of the Women in my family don't and other Muslim Women I know outside my family don't.

Also, not all Muslim children go to these schools. Quite a few go to the closest school for the sake of convenience. You really seem to making a mountain out of a mole hill here more than anything else.

Zambia

The Corinthian wrote:

Is that in violation of the rules for such applications? If so are you condoning such violations?

I don't think so as long as you declare these on each form. However they may not be received well at the applications office.

ArthurDent

Zambia232 wrote:

I see your piont's however the state pay for teachers salary's the state never built the schools or owns the land they stand on. What your maintaining isd that you want a secular system and instead of building it want to force religous schools some in place since independence to conform to secularism. Its a bit like a goverment forcing a secular school to go religous (eg Taliban)..

This used to be the case, but now all the new schools that I'm aware of that have opened in the past few years (under ANY patronage) is built on land purchased by the Dpet of Education and the buildings are leased to the patrons. The local contribution (which was capped at 65k) for building schools has been abolished and now the buildings are exclusively funded by dept.

Zambia232 wrote:

In the case of forcing 100% private funding I still maintain teachers should be trained and paid for by the state to ensure a level playing field across all schools.

Agree, but again at the moment all primary teachers (other than the post grad hibernian course) are run by eith the catholic or COI churches (it'll be very interesting when some young muslim woman with the points in her leaving and wearing a burka turns up for her place in St Pats - but that's a whole other argument!

Zambia232 wrote:

I would be very interested to know what the state actually funds in schools over the cost of teachers anybody know?)..

All national schools receive exactly the same capitation grant to cover (yeah right!!) heating, electricity, insurance and any other number of things needed to run school and all schools receive a grant for ancilliary services (based on number enrolled) for secretarial / caretaking and cleaning

Zambia232 wrote:

In today's current market the land itself would be a serious blow to goverment finanaces. But like I said its going to cost big time.

I agree with you 100% - but if we are going to grow up and be a state that truely "cherishes all our children equally" surely all our children should have equal access to an education