We're racist, as we never knew they were coming?

Zambia

Cheers Arthur. Nice insight full post.

Oh and in relation to brainwashing in schools I have to agree with su-laura that a childs conditioning comes from the home. Primarily No kid entered my school (RC) and became religous they where religous from their folks training.

Jackie laughlin

I sincerely hope that I'm wrong about the teaching of Islam. (Wes, The sort of liberal Islam you describe is not visible to the average observer.) I no more like seeing little Muslim girls veiled "for purity" than I liked seeing little Catholic girls similarly veiled. This rubbish is only recently rejected; Mary Robinson as president had to make a point of refusing to wear a veil when meeting the pope.

It's nonsense to suggest that we do not expect schools to impart values. As I said above, we place a number of duties on schools in respect of undoing values that might be learned at home. I'm not particularly talking about thoroughgoing humanism. Again, as I said before, belief in God isn't a problem. The problems arise when we move from metaphysics to ethics.

It's a myth that the state gave the church control over schools so that the state could evade responsibility or avoid expenditure. The state obeyed the church in this regard.

Zambia

Jackie laughlin wrote:

It's a myth that the state gave the church control over schools so that the state could evade responsibility or avoid expenditure. The state obeyed the church in this regard.

Under british rule for centurys even being a catholic could result in deportation in slavery. The act of a new Irish state to secularise Catholic schools would not have gone down well. It is up to the present goverment to read the chnging times and demographic. Act accordingly and plan for the future something that they constantly fail to do,.

I can not fault the Irish goverment after 1922 and for some years after for letting the catholic church teach a pretty much entirely catholic country.

Fratton Fred

Zambia232 wrote:

I can not fault the Irish goverment after 1922 and for some years after for letting the catholic church teach a pretty much entirely catholic country.

85 years is a long time, surely the government have had enough time to sort it out.

There is no arguement in my view. If people want to send their kids to a church run school, fine and good luck but that should be an exceptional choice, one that is out of the norm. the first option should be a secular school offering education on all religions and teaching an understanding of all races and creeds.

Education is the responsibility of the government and they should grow a pair of balls and face up to that.

Zambia

Fratton Fred wrote:

85 years is a long time, surely the government have had enough time to sort it out.

Education is the responsibility of the government and they should grow a pair of balls and face up to that.

Agree with both piont's, it a bit like if you build it they will come.

axer

I can't imagine that the roman catholic church is going to give up its schools without a fight. I think the church's member numbers would drop dramatically.

The church should not have been running the schools but it ended up that way. The government will have to phase them out whilst building alternative schools or by purchasing the existing schools (see my first point) from the church. This would be a very long process and could take 10 years+ to implement.

Illegal Immigration IS putting huge pressure on school system at the moment. I do not blame the illegal immigrants for this but I blame the government for being too soft in that whole area which incourages more illegal immigrants to come here.

The church is only looking out for itself and has the right to do so. I think the government will have to come down hard on the church and either threaten to remove funding for their schools or gradually start reducing the funding until alternative schools are built. The only problem is the government cannot just stop funding these schools all of a sudden (and the church obviously knows this) or else there would be chaos they will have to use a gradual approach to redirect the education funds to secular schools. The church are in a strong position though.

uberwolf

Fratton Fred wrote:

85 years is a long time, surely the government have had enough time to sort it out.

In the grand scheme of issues that the last 80 years has thrown up, primary education was understandably down the list IMO. Given we've had ten years of prosperity where the cash has been available to fix things, the previous 70 have been a duct tape infrastructure scheme. With so may things to do I can't blame the Government for leaving the status quo in place, as it was achieving the required, and to a high standard.

I think Myers makes fair comment that given the turnaround on projects this country currently achieves it is not reasonable to expect that we would have built schools in far flung villages for children not born to parents in other continents.

That is not to say that the planning has been brutal. Allowing acres of housing estates with no prerequisite requirement for the accompanying schools, shops, transport, etc. The developers should have been forced to provide.

So we have ten years of Government to blame, not 80. The opportunity to hold them accountable passed without incident a couple of months back.

Zombrex

the_syco wrote:

Anyhoo's, that is not my point. My point is that, with our schools bursting, the PC brigade is shouting that we're racist for not giving the refugees priority places.

No actually the "PC Brigade" are shouting because it appears that white families were skipped up the waiting lists while non-white families weren't.

A number of the people involved in this issue have asked why some white "Irish" families seem to have managed to get their kids into these schools despite entering the area later than when the black families first tried to put their kids down on the waiting list.

Associated Press wrote:

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/09/03/europe/EU-GEN-Ireland-Black-Students.php
Some questioned why white families who had moved this year into the town had managed to overcome the registration deadlines to get their children into schools.

Now I don't know enough about the case to know if there is anything behind those allegations. But they are what the allegations are.

the_syco wrote:

F*ck 'em, I say. Take care of our own first.

Irish born citizens generally tend to be considered "our own" :rolleyes:

Unless by "our own" you mean Irish born Catholics citizens. Which would exclude me :eek:

I really hope this isn't going to turn into another debate about how if you aren't Catholic you aren't really Irish.

the_syco wrote:

As for being non-catholic, I pretty sure a lot of the African kids are catholic.

There are roughly 145 million Roman Catholics in Africa, out of a population of about 680 million. So just over a fifth are Roman Catholic. Which, using my amazing powers of calculation means that just under 4/5 aren't Roman Catholic.

purple'n'gold

"Illegal Immigration IS putting huge pressure on school system at the moment. I do not blame the illegal immigrants for this but I blame the government for being too soft in that whole area which incourages more illegal immigrants to come here."

This state of affairs is absolutely ridiculous, illegal immigrants putting pressure on our school system? Simply send them all back where they came from or to the country they first landed in. if they are illegal they should not be here putting our social system under pressure.

Spyral

The church should not have been running the schools but it ended up that way. The government will have to phase them out whilst building alternative schools or by purchasing the existing schools (see my first point) from the church. This would be a very long process and could take 10 years+ to implement.

well lets see when the government were being dinguses who taught people ? ran hospitals ?

the RCC !

So dont bitch just because the government is inept. If it wasn't for catholic schools there'd be no literacy in this country

Zombrex

Spyral wrote:

well lets see when the government were being dinguses who taught people ? ran hospitals ?

the RCC !

So dont bitch just because the government is inept. If it wasn't for catholic schools there'd be no literacy in this country

What have the Romans ever done for us!!

Although the argument could equally be applied to the British, though I'm not quite sure that would go down quite so well ...

I personally don't blame the RC. Education should be the responsibility of the government. But I think taking the schools away from the churches is a well over due move

the_syco

The Corinthian wrote:

Is that in violation of the rules for such applications? If so are you condoning such violations?

You apply for asylum in the 1st country you land in.

=-=

Jackie laughlin, people were sending their kids to the Christain Brothers schools not too long ago...

Victor

purplengold wrote:

you are probably talking about charter flights to and from north African holiday destinations?

No, scheduled flights, although many are to holiday destinations.

purple'n'gold

Victor wrote:

No, scheduled flights, although many are to holiday destinations.

But only to North Africa, we don't have direct flights to sub saharan Africa.
And I never realised we had sheduled flights to anywhere in Africa.

fictionaire

Zambia232 wrote:

Cheers Arthur. Nice insight full post.

Oh and in relation to brainwashing in schools I have to agree with su-laura that a childs conditioning comes from the home. Primarily No kid entered my school (RC) and became religous they where religous from their folks training.

I recently read a disturbing old book (1930's) about the educational system which is now in place in almost all westernized countries. The book was written by Lord Bertrand Russell and in it the author acknowledged the fact that the most formative part of a child's upbringing are the first years of their life.

This man, who some have called the father of modern educational methods, recommended that the state gets the child under its wing as soon as possible.
He commented that parents will be so consumed with their working life that it will force them to leave their offspring in care centres where they will receive pre-school education.

He also was mandated by the british crown to establish experimental schools where he carried out numerous experiments to do with the conditioning of young infants. (see vol 2 of his autobiography). With only three hours a day out of the custody of their parents the conditioning a school does is irreversible.

When it comes to education, parents need to be very watchful as to the influences that are baring down on their offspring.

Its beyond me why it is considered normal to have your children educated by strangers when the history of the human race shows that the parents are best suited for this job.

just my 2 cents.

the_syco

fictionaire wrote:

Its beyond me why it is considered normal to have your children educated by strangers when the history of the human race shows that the parents are best suited for this job.

just my 2 cents.

Show a man how to fish, you feed him for life. Show him hot to make semtex, put it in a bottle, and blow it up in the lake, and then using a net to collect the dead fish, also will feed him for life. True, it's extreme, but it's the wrong way. Likewise with spelling. Imagine one of the fkrs oo use nly alf o d kybrd teaching their kid english? Or someone who hadn't a clue how to carry numbers when multiplying teaching maths? Not every parent knows how to teach their kid. Finally, a soldier will teach their kid to be a soldier. Not an artist. A teacher can.

=-=

Can someone show me these flights, please. Even just name the airports that they come from.

unicorn2

themole wrote:

Agreed.

fully agree

Zombrex

the_syco wrote:

You apply for asylum in the 1st country you land in.

Have you actually read the Dublin II convention?

Jackie laughlin

I'm delighted with the arrival of immigrants. They will be the final nail in the coffin of closed, Catholic, pseudo-republican Ireland. I love it when they have Irish accents, speak Irish, play GAA and immerse themselves in Irish culture, while all the time bringing in their own culture.

The shortage of schools has been for the most part caused by allowing developers to profit from housing schemes without building infrastructure. This is the kind of politics that is supported in Ireland. Adamstown in Co. Dublin is a radical departure and long overdue.

The state must keep a close watch on what families are doing to children. that is why education falls to the state.

Zambia,
Go on, tell us. How far back are you prepared to go with this Britain Vs Catholic Ireland notion? 800 years?

themole

the_syco wrote:

Can someone show me these flights, please. Even just name the airports that they come from.

From here it would appear there are direct flights from dublin to morocco.

Can't see any other direct flights from that site anyway.

Fratton Fred

Flights, immigration and asylum seekers are a red herring as far as this goes.

This is a secular country, it says so in the constitution. If the government is failing to provide a secular education then surely it is not keeping up it's obligations to that constitution.

purple'n'gold

Fratton Fred wrote:

Flights, immigration and asylum seekers are a red herring as far as this goes.

This is a secular country, it says so in the constitution. If the government is failing to provide a secular education then surely it is not keeping up it's obligations to that constitution.

Thats all very well and good, but why should the Irish tax payer pay for the education of children that are illegal and shouldnt be here anyway?
Legal children of whatever colour or creed, no problem with them. They should of course have access to primary education.

Fratton Fred

purplengold wrote:

Thats all very well and good, but why should the Irish tax payer pay for the education of children that are illegal and shouldnt be here anyway?
Legal children of whatever colour or creed, no problem with them. They should of course have access to primary education.

I would argue that they are children, we are a supposedly rich country. Education is a right all children should be entitled to. The fact that their parents chose to bring them here is not their fault.

I'm not advocating opening the flood gates, but we do have a humanitarian responsibility.

axer

Fratton Fred wrote:

I'm not advocating opening the flood gates, but we do have a humanitarian responsibility.

If we were to act on this 'humanitarian responsibility" you talk of then it would open the flood gates which is kind of what has already happened.

We do not have the responsibility to give education to every child in the world - only our own citizens.

Our system of allowing religion to control what should be controlled by the government is a terrible situation to be in and it might be no harm that this problem is arising to force the government to address the issue.

I hate it when our government meet with bush etc to try and get the irish documented in the USA when the Irish should be thrown out as they are illegally there.

The government must act to provide secular schools but it will be a very slow process.

Fratton Fred

axer wrote:

If we were to act on this 'humanitarian responsibility" you talk of then it would open the flood gates which is kind of what has already happened.

We do not have the responsibility to give education to every child in the world - only our own citizens.

Our system of allowing religion to control what should be controlled by the government is a terrible situation to be in and it might be no harm that this problem is arising to force the government to address the issue.

I hate it when our government meet with bush etc to try and get the irish documented in the USA when the Irish should be thrown out as they are illegally there.

The government must act to provide non-secular schools but it will be a very slow process.

If you use "We" to include the developed western world, then yes we do. If you mean "We" the Irish tax payer, no, of course we don't. I'm all for tighter controls on immigration providing it does not impact on those who need protecting, but I believe we should keep an eye on our moral duties as well. To have a 6 year old child going without an education while his or her parents go through a two year deportation battle is not, in my opinion, a responsible act.

banaman

purplengold wrote:

Thats all very well and good, but why should the Irish tax payer pay for the education of children that are illegal and shouldnt be here anyway?
Legal children of whatever colour or creed, no problem with them. They should of course have access to primary education.

AS usual the debate on the failure of our government to actually govern is being clouded by issues of migration (which is further clouded by the poster to be about Africans (Nigerians to be exact))

Anyone who can be A....d can go to the CSO website and discover that most migrants (3/4) are European, the majority of whom are Brits. But I used this site:- http://www.migrationinformation.org/datahub/countrydata/data.cfm for data.

Now as a consequence of our membership of the EU (whose financial help we've been using to build roads, airports, etc,etc since the 70's) these foreigners have an absolute right to come here, work and to BRING THEIR WIVES/PARTNERS & KIDS.

A large part of the Celtic Tiger has been built on migrant labour and our government's surplusses on migrant's taxes (which is in effect free revenue since we didn't have to pay for their education or healthcare when they were kids).

Those in the know, IBEC, CSO and economic forecasters have been saying for 10 years that the economy needs >50,000 migrants per year. Now I'm not Einstein but even I can figure that if even if ONLY 1% of these migrants bring 1 child thats 500 kids per year, times 10years = 5,000 extra kids.

And its well known that migrants tend to be concentrated together due to the presence of their compatriots (Irish in New York, London, Chinatowns etc) BUT also due to the affordability of housing, i.e. in the POORER areas.
It also doesn't take Einstein to figure out that these areas are usually under-resourced in terms of school, health services etc.

Now if I can see this presumably those paid to look at trends can also see it, and make representations to the politician/minister responsible.

So the real question should be; given that government probably were told this was coming, why are we blaming migrants (and in particular asylum seekers) when the buck should stop with FF?

WE HAVE A GOVERNMENT THAT DOES NOT GOVERN.

And worse then blames easy targets for its own failings.
Remember the Citizenship referendum and the "foreign women coming here to have babies" scares, MOST of the "Foreign Women" were EU citizens NOT Africans.

SO to answer the question posed by the poster; WE DID KNOW THEY WERE COMING, AND BLAMING NIGERIANS (AS YOU DO) IS DEFINITELY RACIST

Jackie laughlin

I take it that when these "flood gates" open, a human tide sweeps in and we are all lost. Gimme a break!

Oh, hold on! We could roll out something or other and we'd be safe going forward!

rickybutcher

The fact is Ireland is viewed as a bit of a soft touch as far as immigration is concerned, the vast vast majority of immigrants who come here are economic migrants, looking to set up here in the same way as Irish people looked to go to America to set up in the 80s, but they are not asylum seekers. I'd like to teach the world to sing too and let everybody who wants to come here but the fact is, like any other country in the world, we have a right to put limits on the number of people coming here, nobody here voted for the country to undergo massive demographic change here and create a 25% immigrant population segment within 20 years. I despise Kevin Myers but I would generally agree with the argument if not the tone of his article.

That's ignoring the fact that the majority of immigrants come from the EU and are perfectly entitled to be here by law.

Fratton Fred

rickybutcher wrote:

The fact is Ireland is viewed as a bit of a soft touch as far as immigration is concerned, the vast vast majority of immigrants who come here are economic migrants, looking to set up here in the same way as Irish people looked to go to America to set up in the 80s, but they are not asylum seekers. I'd like to teach the world to sing too and let everybody who wants to come here but the fact is, like any other country in the world, we have a right to put limits on the number of people coming here, nobody here voted for the country to undergo massive demographic change here and create a 25% immigrant population segment within 20 years. I despise Kevin Myers but I would generally agree with the argument if not the tone of his article.

That's ignoring the fact that the majority of immigrants come from the EU and are perfectly entitled to be here by law.

people only migrate to countries where they believe there is a better standard of living. to some extent, the increase in immigration is a sign of the level of success the country has enjoyed. to an extent, Immigration is an inevitable result of a booming economy.

rickybutcher

Fratton Fred wrote:

people only migrate to countries where they believe there is a better standard of living. to some extent, the increase in immigration is a sign of the level of success the country has enjoyed. to an extent, Immigration is an inevitable result of a booming economy.

It's inevitable. But this state should strictly control and monitor immigration for everyone's benefit, immigrants included, that is not happening.