We're racist, as we never knew they were coming?

mickoneill30

wes wrote:

Its doesn't happen in Pakistan to the best of my knowledge, its certainly not common practice. I assume you talking about Pakistan, as the post you replied to was talking about Pakistan. If Myers did say that, then what he is saying is wrong.

It does.
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2007%5C09%5C03%5Cstory_3-9-2007_pg7_45

It seems to be on the decline though as it's outlawed. A quick google on "female circumcision pakistan" brings up a fair few hits. I can find a doc saying 5500 a day in 1994 but I can't find anything more recent.

mickoneill30

axer wrote:

Yes, I saw him on it I think people are misunderstanding what he is saying.

He is not saying that he has the answers - he is just saying that we *should* be talking about it and not be afraid of everyone playing the racist card. Of course it seems most people misunderstood him and thought he was being racist.

I got that from him too. When I saw him come on I thought "****e not this plonker" but he seemed to make sense. I think his main point was that it's not racist to talk about how to plan for and integrate foreigners that come into Ireland. Whats so bad about that? That sounds like common sense to me. By not doing that you get situations like overloaded schools and towns that contain mainly people from one foreign culture or another.

wes

mickoneill30 wrote:

It does.
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2007%5C09%5C03%5Cstory_3-9-2007_pg7_45

It seems to be on the decline though as it's outlawed. A quick google on "female circumcision pakistan" brings up a fair few hits. I can find a doc saying 5500 a day in 1994 but I can't find anything more recent.

The link you provided is about Egypt:

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2007%5C09%5C03%5Cstory_3-9-2007_pg7_45
Egypt doctors to be prosecuted for female circumcision

CAIRO: Four Egyptian doctors and a midwife are to be prosecuted for conducting female circumcision, a local official said on Sunday, as the government toughens its stand against the outlawed but widely practised operation. The private clinics of the four doctors in the southern province of Menya have been shut down, governor Fuad Saad Eddin told the official MENA news agency. Health ministry official Ayman Ragab told MENA there had been nine known cases of female circumcision in the province during the month of August. In June, Health Minister Hatem al-Gabali issued a decree banning every doctor and member of the medical profession from performing the procedure. A law to toughen penalties against the practice, prompted by the death of two young girls, is to be put to parliament when it reconvenes. afp

Egypt is in North Africa as I said it happens there. As for Pakistan, female circumcision is no where near the levels in North Africa (in fact I don't think it happens at all), the Human rights web sites I have checked don't mention Pakistan in relation to FGM. There is no cultural practice for it in South Asia.

I have checked Amnesty and Human Rights watch and I am getting reports on a huge domestic violence problems, but not FGM.

mickoneill30

djpbarry wrote:

Myers made a reference to the (supposed) rape epidemic in Pakistan.

I think you're wrong there. I didn't hear him talk about rape. I could be wrong though. For anybody that didn't see it I presume it'll be up on this site soon
http://www.rte.ie/tv/latelate/ (now there's a link I never thought I'd go to )

mickoneill30

wes wrote:

The link you provided is about Egypt

Yeah. Good point. I didn't see the Cairo bit. Sorry about that.

wes

mickoneill30 wrote:

Yeah. Good point. I didn't see the Cairo bit.

I think the hits you getting are Pakistani news papers reporting on it. I have a lot of family in Pakistan and they have never heard of FGM. My Mother never heard of it until she saw it on the news here in Ireland.

djpbarry

moe sizlak wrote:

i never once heard myers utter the words rape epidemic
he used the words female circumcision alright

I may have been mistaken – perhaps he was referring to female circumcision, in which he case he was still wrong.

moe sizlak wrote:

whats this about not being able to comment on a country just because you have never been there ,if that were the case , hardly anyone in this country could comment on whats happening in burma , nor could any irish person or group suggest that ireland boycott the bejing olympics due to chinas dismal respone to whats happening in burma and there own disregard for human rights in general

You are taking my comment out of context. In the case of China and Burma, we (in Ireland) are informed of events there by reputable organisations. Now, unless Myers has been to Pakistan himself and witnessed something that has not already been reported (by media, NGO’s, etc.), then I would rather he kept his sweeping generalisations to himself.

mickoneill30 wrote:

I think his main point was that it's not racist to talk about how to plan for and integrate foreigners that come into Ireland. Whats so bad about that? That sounds like common sense to me.

That may be what you got from him on Friday night, but that’s not what he puts across in his column in the Indo (see above).

mickoneill30 wrote:

By not doing that you get situations like overloaded schools and towns that contain mainly people from one foreign culture or another.

No. You get overloaded schools and towns by not planning properly, regardless of whether people are arriving from Laos or Leitrim. Migration of people does not cause problems; horrendous government planning causes problems.

Delboy05

djpbarry wrote:

No. You get overloaded schools and towns by not planning properly, regardless of whether people are arriving from Laos or Leitrim. Migration of people does not cause problems; horrendous government planning causes problems.

what can the govt. do when people only start moving en masse to an area in teh space of year or two....an independent councillor from the balbriggan area insinuated as much on the radio last week. she said she'd liek to see what addresses the parents actually had.

As regards to the number of immigrants in ireland being seriously underestimated - the chinese cultural officer (don't know where she got the title from) who organises the annual new year celebrations in Dublin told the media last year that there were about 120,000 chinese people in Ireland!!! and the census showed up 15,000 or something like that. Who do you believe???
And the polish embassy has said that the numbers in the census of Poles here are seriously underestimated, by as much as half. Conor lenihan said as much last week.

We don't have a clue...the gov't does'nt want to face up to it as IBEC want cheap labour and all are happy to keep the true number quiet so as not to cause alarm. Our immigration system is a joke and we'll soon end up no better than britain or france...

moe_sizlak

i have just a really well presented dispatches show in chanell 4 with jon snow who is anyones book is a fairly progressive guy
he explained how you cannot lump all immigrants into one social or economic grouping , this was based on a study covering all theese areas in the uk
for example the portugeese in the uk are the 2nd least successfull people are regards income or as regards reliance on the state for support , the poles on the other hand are much more successfull when it comes to finding work in the uk or there level of education yet both groups are from catholic european countries
another interesting comparrison was that of immigrants both born in the uk and revently arrived from both india and pakistan ,those from india are far more successfull in every way than those from pakistan , in fact people in the uk of indian extraction earn more , pay more tax and do better in school that the average white brittis person there
while by comparrison those of pakistani origin are among the least successfull economic group in the uk

as regards our situation here , its likeley that some immigrant groups will adapt easier than others , the poles and the chineese are likeley to adapt quite easily and those from muslim countries are likeley to be less successfull in adapting
we face a challenge as regards theese issues and as i said in previous posts , denying people the right to debate theese issues serves no one , not the irish , not the new irish as some refer to them

djpbarry

Delboy05 wrote:

what can the govt. do when people only start moving en masse to an area in teh space of year or two....an independent councillor from the balbriggan area insinuated as much on the radio last week. she said she'd liek to see what addresses the parents actually had.

Yeah, 600,000 immigrants have arrived here in the last 2 years.:rolleyes:

You’re forgetting that the council approved the building of thousands of homes in the area without providing adequate schooling facilities. It doesn’t make any difference where the people now living in those homes originated from. This is happening all over the country, but particularly in Dublin. The building of shopping malls seems to be a much greater priority than the provision of school places. This is not about immigration, this is about atrocious planning.

Delboy05 wrote:

As regards to the number of immigrants in ireland being seriously underestimated - the chinese cultural officer (don't know where she got the title from) who organises the annual new year celebrations in Dublin told the media last year that there were about 120,000 chinese people in Ireland!!! and the census showed up 15,000 or something like that. Who do you believe???
And the polish embassy has said that the numbers in the census of Poles here are seriously underestimated, by as much as half.

The point is it’s all speculation. I’m not saying the census is perfect, but those figures are the best we have at present. But, as I have already said, it doesn’t really make any difference whether there are sixty thousand Poles living here or six million – we are part of the EU and we cannot stop them from coming here. And apart from that, the issue here is poor planning and nothing else. And why is it that no one ever includes the fact that 6.5% of our population is of British origin in any debate on immigration?

djpbarry

moe sizlak wrote:

i never once heard myers utter the words rape epidemic

I was close - I’ve just had a listen to the interview again on rte.ie. Myers said in an article in the Times in 2005 that the murder of rape victims is commonplace in Jordan and Pakistan and he defended this statement on The Late, Late Show.

Scoobydoobydoo

djpbarry wrote:

Now, I very much doubt that Myers has ever been to Pakistan, so he has no business commenting on their society.

This is a ridiculous statement. Anyone should be able to have an opinion on other societies, especially on places that are widely reported to have serious social injustices. I wouldn't dream of visiting certain places which I would feel unsafe in - does this mean should keep my trap shut when I hear other peoples horror stories?
In this country we have freedom of speech, thank goodness for that.

djpbarry

Scoobydoobydoo wrote:

Anyone should be able to have an opinion on other societies, especially on places that are widely reported to have serious social injustices. I wouldn't dream of visiting certain places which I would feel unsafe in - does this mean should keep my trap shut when I hear other peoples horror stories?

I have already explained myself regarding this statement (see above).

purple'n'gold

“And why is it that no one ever includes the fact that 6.5% of our population is of British origin in any debate on immigration?”

I think that this statement is hitting on the nitty gritty of the entire immigration thing. People who look like us and speak the same language as us are not regarded by the ordinary man/woman in the street as in anyway different than us (except maybe they might have a cute accent or annoying accent) as the case may be. And all Polish people have to do is learn the language and they come into that category. Don’t forget we assimilated Vikings, Normans and Anglo Saxons into our Celtic island, and now you can’t tell the difference. But Africans and Chinese look different and it will take a long time for them to integrate, if ever. I am not a racist, just stating a fact.

djpbarry

purplengold wrote:

People who look like us and speak the same language as us are not regarded by the ordinary man/woman in the street as in anyway different than us

Yes, that is pretty much my point. Myers is advocating background checks on black people in this country (in Balbriggan in particular) to ensure they are here legally. But it is entirely possible that there may be Britons here (or other white, English-speaking people) that may be involved in criminal activity (for example), yet nobody is proposing background checks on British citizens (and rightly so).

(Note: I should point out that I am not in any way anti-British, nor am I suggesting that all Britons are criminals! I am merely using them as an example.)

The Corinthian

I really have to laugh at posters on this thread. Myers is by journalistic occupation an agent provocateur. This means that it is the notoriety of his opinions rather than their actual content that give him publicity and in turn sell the publications that he writes and gets paid for.

So congratulations to all those who are spending every waking hour here bitching about him - you've just made him more bankable.

djpbarry

The Corinthian wrote:

Myers is by journalistic occupation an agent provocateur. This means that it is the notoriety of his opinions rather than their actual content that give him publicity and in turn sell the publications that he writes and gets paid for.

This is no doubt true. BUT, far too many people believe everything they see or hear in the media, i.e. if Myers says that everyone in Iran eats children, a large number of people will believe him (referring to the general public, not anyone on this thread), just because he writes for the Indo.

indough

I've never met anyone who believes everything they see or hear in the media.

The Corinthian

djpbarry wrote:

This is no doubt true. BUT, far too many people believe everything they see or hear in the media, i.e. if Myers says that everyone in Iran eats children, a large number of people will believe him (referring to the general public, not anyone on this thread), just because he writes for the Indo.

I would have believed you about eight pages ago. At this stage it's just farce.

purple'n'gold

The Corinthian wrote:

I really have to laugh at posters on this thread. Myers is by journalistic occupation an agent provocateur. This means that it is the notoriety of his opinions rather than their actual content that give him publicity and in turn sell the publications that he writes and gets paid for.

So congratulations to all those who are spending every waking hour here bitching about him - you've just made him more bankable.

Eamon Dunphy also springs to mind.

moe_sizlak

djpbarry wrote:

I was close - I’ve just had a listen to the interview again on rte.ie. Myers said in an article in the Times in 2005 that the murder of rape victims is commonplace in Jordan and Pakistan and he defended this statement on The Late, Late Show.

there was a documentary on bbc2 about a year ago about a 16 yr old girl in iran who was hunge in public from a crane , her crime was she reported being raped to the police , she was seen to have brought shame to the rapists family

wes

moe_sizlak wrote:

there was a documentary on bbc2 about a year ago about a 16 yr old girl in iran who was hunge in public from a crane , her crime was she reported being raped to the police , she was seen to have brought shame to the rapists family

Iran is not Jordan or Pakistan. Its a completely different country. I don't see how an example from Iran, has anything to do with Pakistan or Jordan, or how something that happened in Iran proves anything about Pakistan and Jordan.

moe_sizlak

i see nothing wrong with myers questioning the amount of muslims we let into ireland , there is not one european country who have not had trouble integrating there muslim populations , as i mentioned in my post about the jon snow docu last night which showed how different nationalities do better than others regardless of race , indians in the uk do better than even the white britts themselves where as pakistanis do the worst of any immigrant group , both are south asians yet one is muslim , the other is hundu
wearing the veil , going nuts over cartoons and generally moaning about being victimised every 5 mins are all examples of how muslims are difficult to integrate into western culture
its only right that we take a look at the whole area of emmigration , particulary muslim immigration

wes

moe_sizlak wrote:

i see nothing wrong with myers questioning the amount of muslims we let into ireland , there is not one european country who have not had trouble integrating there muslim populations , as i mentioned in my post about the jon snow docu last night which showed how different nationalities do better than others regardless of race , indians in the uk do better than even the white britts themselves where as pakistanis do the worst of any immigrant group , both are south asians yet one is muslim , the other is hundu
wearing the veil , going nuts over cartoons and generally moaning about being victimised every 5 mins are all examples of how muslims are difficult to integrate into western culture
its only right that we take a look at the whole area of immigration , particulary muslim immigration

India has as many Muslims as Pakistan btw (I have seen even seen some estimates that they may have more). Plenty of India Muslims out there, so the entire Indian = Hindu thing is hugely insulting to Indian Muslims, Sikhs, Buddhists, Jains, Christians, Atheists and other groups. Sweeping generalizations like that don't help anyone. Also the same programme also showed other groups not doing so well in the UK, e.g. Portuguese.

Muslims in the US get on fine btw. They don't do so well in Europe to be fair (when compared to there US counterparts), but they seem to integrate just fine in the US. So your 2nd sweeping generalization isn't much use, as Muslims can integrate pretty well. They also do better than the average person in the US as well.

Of course the UK is not Ireland and US is not Ireland, so what happening in those countries don't necessarily have a bearing on Ireland.

djpbarry

moe sizlak wrote:

there was a documentary on bbc2 about a year ago about a 16 yr old girl in iran who was hunge in public from a crane , her crime was she reported being raped to the police , she was seen to have brought shame to the rapists family

Last time I checked, there was an international border between Iran and Pakistan.

moe sizlak wrote:

indians in the uk do better than even the white britts themselves where as pakistanis do the worst of any immigrant group , both are south asians yet one is muslim , the other is hundu

Get your facts straight: 13.4% of Indians are Muslim – that’s about 150 million of them. And seeing as we’re on the subject, my father-in-law is Pakistani (from a Muslim background) and he is a very successful editor (he’s about to buy his 6th property).

moe sizlak wrote:

wearing the veil , going nuts over cartoons and generally moaning about being victimised every 5 mins are all examples of how muslims are difficult to integrate into western culture

Do you actually know any Muslims? Or are you basing all of this on what people in the media (such as Myers) tell you to believe?

djpbarry

Anyone who tries to tell me that Myers is not in any way racist after reading this is kidding themselves:

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/kevin-myers/time-for-the-tories-to-ditch-bland-lingo-of-asylumology-1114801.html

mickoneill30

djpbarry wrote:

Anyone who tries to tell me that Myers is not in any way racist after reading this is kidding themselves:

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/kevin-myers/time-for-the-tories-to-ditch-bland-lingo-of-asylumology-1114801.html

I must be kidding myself so. I'm not sure how reporting numbers is racist. What races was he racist towards?

wes

mickoneill30 wrote:

I must be kidding myself so. I'm not sure how reporting numbers is racist. What races was he racist towards?

He kept on going on about "White British", so are black or Asian people who families lived in Britain for 3 or 4 generations not British? That what he seems to be suggesting.

mickoneill30

wes wrote:

He kept on going on about "White British", so are black or Asian people who families lived in Britain for 3 or 4 generations not British?

Ah OK. I get you now.

wes

mickoneill30 wrote:

Ah OK. I get you now.

Now what he said was very unclear as well. So I wouldn't call him racist right away, but what is written could give that impression.