We're racist, as we never knew they were coming?

axer

djpbarry wrote:

My main arguments throughout this thread (to repeat myself yet again) have been the following:

1. Immigration is not a “threat” to this country’s “Irishness”.

I also disagree.

celtic_patriot

We need a new political party to sort out the immigration problem. This political party would be one of the people and would be opposed to all immigration. We would retore Ireland, for the Irish. Traitors would shake with fear.

Unshelved

We need a new political party to sort out the immigration problem. This political party would be one of the people and would be opposed to all immigration. We would retore Ireland, for the Irish. Traitors would shake with fear.

Wait - it's already been done. The Immigration Control Platform ran in the last election and they CLEANED up - gaining ... how many seats? Wait till I check... Oh that's right - none.

Get your head out of the sand.

djpbarry

axer wrote:

From what I have read from you - you seem to be saying that immigration is not a problem in this country. Immigration *is* a problem in a badly managed country with badly managed services and immigration policies & controls i.e. Ireland. Of course, idealistically immigration is a great thing for a country.

What I am saying is that I do not see these “problems”, supposedly caused by immigration, that everyone else seems to be seeing. What are the problems that people see with immigration? How has immigration directly impacted upon their lives? If there are so many problems associated with immigration, what should we do about it?

Can you please elaborate on our “badly managed immigration policies & controls”?

axer wrote:

I also disagree.

Why?!? How are we “threatened” by immigration?!?

The Corinthian

djpbarry wrote:

If my argument is so ridiculously unbalanced then you should be able to find plenty of holes in it.

I already did. I pointed out that you have ignored any possible negative aspects to immigration outside of suggesting that if there are any they are the responsibility of the host nation.

I'm not suggesting that immigration is, on balance, either good or bad, only that when assessing it you're not very objective. And that is and has been easily demonstrated.

Immigration is not a “threat” to this country’s “Irishness”.

Well it is, but that's not really necessarily a bad thing. Different cultures do rub off on and invariable change each other, but this is a far preferable situation to cultural stagnation. The food is better for a start.

Of course the debate on how much, or to what rate 'Irishishness' should change, or in what direction, is a far more complex one and certainly not one I intend to touch with a barge poll in this thread. Suffice it to say that I suspect that US television has had a far greater influence in shaping change in 'Irishishness' than immigration.

monkey tennis

celtic_patriot wrote:

We need a new political party to sort out the immigration problem. This political party would be one of the people and would be opposed to all immigration. We would retore Ireland, for the Irish.

And will we round up the millions of Irish in countries around the world and force them to come back here? Bit hypocritical if not.

Wait till you're a little older and world-experienced before you go crowing about 'patriotism'.

axer

djpbarry wrote:

What I am saying is that I do not see these “problems”, supposedly caused by immigration, that everyone else seems to be seeing. What are the problems that people see with immigration?

* Extra strain on our already badly run services - "exasperating" the situation as you put it. This strain is amplified even more so with the numbers of non-english speaking immigrants coming in which create even further delays
* Extra strain on the housing market
* Extra strain on the homeless services
* Human trafficking problems
* Extra strain on the education system due to children coming not having any english whatsoever
* Integration problems exasperated by lack of english
* Higher risk of new diseases entering the country that we neither have dealt with before nor have the capacity to deal with
* No proper monitoring of how many migrants are here - where they are from, how long do they intend to stay here, are they working, what are they working at...
* Religious/Cultural problems e.g. female circumcision
These are just some of the problems I can see which are caused or made worse by immigration. All these problems could and should be eliminated by the Irish government by immigration policies. I do not blame the immigrants.

djpbarry wrote:

How has immigration directly impacted upon their lives?

See above

djpbarry wrote:

If there are so many problems associated with immigration, what should we do about it?

Put proper policies in place to control and monitor immigration.

djpbarry wrote:

Can you please elaborate on our “badly managed immigration policies & controls”?

see above

djpbarry wrote:

Why?!? How are we “threatened” by immigration?!?

No, I think you misunderstand. You say that your point all along has been about "Irishness" is not being threatened by immigration but yet this is the first time you have mentioned "Irishness" from what I can see. Your arguements seem to me to be that immigration does not cause a problem.

My point is immigration *is* a major problem in Ireland as we are unable to deal with it properly which in turn eats away at the positives caused by it.

JimiTime

^^^ I think in many ways we are all in agreement, its just that we're splitting heirs over how we are saying it?? We all seem to be saying we don't have a problem with immigrants or immigration as an ideal. Indeed immigration is needed. Djpbarry seems to want it directed away from immigration, as he believes that the issues are with government failings and mis-management. I think we all believe that the big issues are government failings and mismanagement?? However, until this is sorted, immigration exacerbates our country's failings?? I am seeing djpbarry's point, as to say, bringing immigration into the fore can seem like its a scapegoat, when really its the goverment failings in basic infrastructure that are the real problem. There are immigration issues, such as those mentioned by axer though. All and all, more needs to be done to sort this country out. We don't even have the basics right as regards basic infrastructure.
As for the whole 'irishness' thing. I'm not a patriot, so I don't really care that much about it. Irelands 'irishness', is constantly changing anyway. Ans axer makes a great point, in that American TV etc, has probably changed our 'irishess' more than immigration ever will.

seamus

axer wrote:

* Extra strain on the housing market
* Extra strain on the homeless services
* Human trafficking problems
* Extra strain on the education system due to children coming not having any english whatsoever
* Integration problems exasperated by lack of english
* Higher risk of new diseases entering the country that we neither have dealt with before nor have the capacity to deal with
* No proper monitoring of how many migrants are here - where they are from, how long do they intend to stay here, are they working, what are they working at...
* Religious/Cultural problems e.g. female circumcision

In reality, these are all short-term issues though, not reasons to lock out immigrants. They can be dealt with, they can be eliminated.
Yes, it's stressfull for a short while, but it's just that, a short while. It doesn't feel like it at the time, but change is surprisingly quick (even in Ireland ). Think back to the nineties - "The M50, what's that? Oh right, the new airport road!". Then back to the seventies when my parents were my age. The entire country has completely change in what is a ridiculously short period of time, so there's no reason why the problems you've listed above can't be eliminated in ten or fifteen years.
We do however need the willingness and intelligence to deal with these issues, otherwise they become long term social problems. You just have to look at ghettoisation in the U.S. for a good example of bad problem solving.

I don't think I'm disagreeing with you here, my point mainly is that the short-term upsets we're now experiencing aren't a good reason to stop or lock down immigration. Immigration has just sped up what were impending social problems. Now we have to deal with the problems, not the immigrants. If the infrastructure and social amenities had been in place, mass inward immigration would not have caused major upset.

djpbarry

Jimi, I think you've hit the nail squarely on the head .

I would also share your views on patriotism - we're all a hodge-podge of various gene-pools anyway.

pickarooney

Oh no, direct flights from Africa to Ireland! What horse now to flog to death?

carveone

seamus wrote:

In reality, these are all short-term issues though, not reasons to lock out immigrants. They can be dealt with, they can be eliminated...

time, so there's no reason why the problems you've listed above can't be eliminated in ten or fifteen years.

I hope we have 10 or 15 years. Which sounds depressing, but if the economy
goes down hard in 10 years, we'll be slap bang into US ghettoisation. And the government is so competent really...

down immigration. Immigration has just sped up what were impending social problems. Now we have to deal with the problems, not the immigrants.If the infrastructure and social amenities had been in place, mass inward immigration would not have caused major upset.

Couldn't agree more. Whose to say that if things had been different, we couldn't have been arguing right now about city slums like Ballymun (was). And saying that is the fault of the people living there for the problems with the country.

Besides, one could argue that given that Ireland voted for EU harmonisation, that there is very little immigration per se. Just free movement through the EU. After all if I move from Kansas to California, am I immigrating??

axer

seamus wrote:

In reality, these are all short-term issues though,

What do you mean by short term? If these problems are not dealt with in the next 10 years they could become major long term problems.

seamus wrote:

not reasons to lock out immigrants.

Who said anything about locking out immigrants? We need controlled immigration. We want people that are good for this country thus we need to be able to see who is here and determine who we want by changing our immigration policies to attract them.

axer

carveone wrote:

After all if I move from Kansas to California, am I immigrating??

No, you're migrating.

bonkey

carveone wrote:

but if the economy goes down hard in 10 years, we'll be slap bang into US ghettoisation.

Will we?

If immigrants came here to take advantage of our economy then one would imagine that if the economy goes south, they will go with it.

The Corinthian

carveone wrote:

After all if I move from Kansas to California, am I immigrating??

I would have said descending, but it's actually too close to call.

bonkey wrote:

If immigrants came here to take advantage of our economy then one would imagine that if the economy goes south, they will go with it.

No doubt some will, but to suggest that all will would be akin to attributing them with the migratory efficiency of locusts.

Migration is not easy for anyone and most individuals, let alone families, will avoid having to do so if they can, especially if they have already done so.

seamus

axer wrote:

What do you mean by short term? If these problems are not dealt with in the next 10 years they could become major long term problems.

Well that's kind of my point. Right now, these are short-term issues. If they're not dealt with in the short-term, they will become long-term issues. But right now we're still in a position to resolve them, we're not screwed in the long-term.

Who said anything about locking out immigrants? We need controlled immigration. We want people that are good for this country thus we need to be able to see who is here and determine who we want by changing our immigration policies to attract them.

As I say, I wasn't sure if I was disagreeing with you. While I feel that of course there are plenty of chancers in the immigration system, there is no such thing as the perfect immigration system.
Ultimately, there are two types of immigrants: People who want to come and people who have to come. The latter are the vast majority of economic migrants to any country. All of the immigration controls in the world won't prevent bad apples getting in. Fake passports, fake names, fake whatevers. If someone wants to get in bad enough, they can. Then they can disappear from the authorities just as easily. This is an unfortunate side effect of allowing people to immigrate.
I'm not sure if we have a serious issue with immigration control in this country. A sudden surge in immigrants doesn't mean a failure in immigration control.

carveone

The Corinthian wrote:

I would have said descending, but it's actually too close to call.

Bad example maybe

No doubt some will, but to suggest that all will would be akin to attributing them with the migratory efficiency of locusts.

As someone who has moved country once or twice I assure you it's a big pain. And expensive. It's one thing to be an individual living out of a suitcase, quite another to have been here for 5 years with a family and kids. Even in the 80s here, most Irish who emmigrated did not take the decision lightly.

Conor.

djpbarry

axer wrote:

This strain is amplified even more so with the numbers of non-english speaking immigrants coming in which create even further delays.

I’m going to have to ask you to back that up in some way. What have non-English speaking immigrants got to do with, say, poor public transport?

axer wrote:

Extra strain on the housing market

Last time I checked, property prices are falling in Ireland and there are a number of empty houses around the country.

axer wrote:

Extra strain on the homeless services

What state “services” for the homeless are you referring to?

axer wrote:

Human trafficking problems

Human trafficking is a completely separate issue. It is a criminal activity that should fall under the remit of the Gardaí.

axer wrote:

* Extra strain on the education system due to children coming not having any english whatsoever
* Integration problems exasperated by lack of English

Ok, but remember, it is quite possible that people may wish to come here to learn, or improve their English. Also, we cannot expect every immigrant (particularly children) to be fluent in English.

axer wrote:

Higher risk of new diseases entering the country that we neither have dealt with before nor have the capacity to deal with

I do not see this as a major problem. Taking malaria as an example, there were 44 cases reported in Ireland in 2005. Of this total, only 7 cases were reported in “new arrivals”. The majority of cases were associated with Irish residents travelling abroad and these could have been avoided had they taken the appropriate prophylaxis.

axer wrote:

No proper monitoring of how many migrants are here - where they are from, how long do they intend to stay here, are they working, what are they working at...

What are you proposing? Should we expend vast resources monitoring the activities of (for the most part) law-abiding immigrants, when these resources are surely required elsewhere? Besides, the majority of immigrants in this country are EU citizens and as such are entitled to the same rights as ourselves. We cannot devise such a big-brother system unless it complies with EU law and we apply it to all residents of Ireland.

axer wrote:

Religious/Cultural problems e.g. female circumcision

Are you trying to tell me that female circumcision is a problem in this country?

axer

djpbarry wrote:

I’m going to have to ask you to back that up in some way. What have non-English speaking immigrants got to do with, say, poor public transport?

It takes a lot longer to explain something to someone when they do not understand or speak english. Common sense tells me this.

djpbarry wrote:

Last time I checked, property prices are falling in Ireland and there are a number of empty houses around the country.

They may be falling now.

djpbarry wrote:

What state “services” for the homeless are you referring to?

I think you are trying to change what I said again to suit yourself. I did not mention state services. I am talking about homeless services in general.

djpbarry wrote:

Human trafficking is a completely separate issue. It is a criminal activity that should fall under the remit of the Gardaí.

No it is not a seperate issue. It is harder for the Gardaí to deal with it when there are a lot of immigrants coming in that don't speak english.

djpbarry wrote:

Ok, but remember, it is quite possible that people may wish to come here to learn, or improve their English. Also, we cannot expect every immigrant (particularly children) to be fluent in English.

I think you are missing the point.

djpbarry wrote:

I do not see this as a major problem. Taking malaria as an example, there were 44 cases reported in Ireland in 2005. Of this total, only 7 cases were reported in “new arrivals”. The majority of cases were associated with Irish residents travelling abroad and these could have been avoided had they taken the appropriate prophylaxis.

I said higher risks of new diseases.

djpbarry wrote:

What are you proposing? Should we expend vast resources monitoring the activities of (for the most part) law-abiding immigrants, when these resources are surely required elsewhere? Besides, the majority of immigrants in this country are EU citizens and as such are entitled to the same rights as ourselves. We cannot devise such a big-brother system unless it complies with EU law and we apply it to all residents of Ireland.

Who said I was proposing anything? This country *should* monitor immigration. Are you proposing we have an open door policy and not monitor anything?

djpbarry wrote:

Are you trying to tell me that female circumcision is a problem in this country?

I'm sure there have been cases. (http://www.independent.ie/national-news/alert-over-female-circumcision-query-351057.html).

It sounds to me that you think there are absolutely no negative sides to the immigration we are seeing. It must be nice looking through that rose tinted glass of yours.

djpbarry

axer wrote:

It takes a lot longer to explain something to someone when they do not understand or speak english.

Of course it does, but I repeat, what has that got to do with poor public transport?

axer wrote:

They may be falling now.

Are you suggesting that exorbitant property prices in Ireland are a result of immigration? Wouldn’t have anything do to with (mostly) Irish people buying up houses left, right and centre, would it?

axer wrote:

I think you are trying to change what I said again to suit yourself. I did not mention state services. I am talking about homeless services in general.

Ok, what homeless “services” are you referring to?

axer wrote:

No it is not a seperate issue. It is harder for the Gardaí to deal with it when there are a lot of immigrants coming in that don't speak english.

That is a ridiculous statement. First of all, put a number on the “lot of immigrants that don’t speak English”. Secondly, how “hard” it is for Gardaí to deal with it is irrelevant; human trafficking is still a criminal activity. The number of non-English speaking people in the country does not change the nature of the crime.

axer wrote:

I said higher risks of new diseases.

Such as?

axer wrote:

Who said I was proposing anything?

You did:

axer wrote:

No proper monitoring of how many migrants are here - where they are from, how long do they intend to stay here, are they working, what are they working at...

You are proposing that we monitor immigrants’ activities.

axer wrote:

This country *should* monitor immigration.

It does.

axer wrote:

Are you proposing we have an open door policy and not monitor anything?

I never said that, but what you are proposing contravenes EU law.

axer wrote:

It sounds to me that you think there are absolutely no negative sides to the immigration we are seeing

It seems to me you are seeing problems where they do not exist.

moe_sizlak

axer wrote:

It takes a lot longer to explain something to someone when they do not understand or speak english. Common sense tells me this.

They may be falling now.

I think you are trying to change what I said again to suit yourself. I did not mention state services. I am talking about homeless services in general.

No it is not a seperate issue. It is harder for the Gardaí to deal with it when there are a lot of immigrants coming in that don't speak english.

I think you are missing the point.

I said higher risks of new diseases.

Who said I was proposing anything? This country *should* monitor immigration. Are you proposing we have an open door policy and not monitor anything?

I'm sure there have been cases. (http://www.independent.ie/national-news/alert-over-female-circumcision-query-351057.html).

It sounds to me that you think there are absolutely no negative sides to the immigration we are seeing. It must be nice looking through that rose tinted glass of yours.

while i believe what kevin myers says as regards the need to debate the whole issue of immigration without fear , i find some of your points quite spurious
you say that immigrants drove up the price of houses , well 1st of all , it was for the most part a good thing that house prices went up so much in the past number of years , it was a clear sign how well the economy was doing
2ndly , immigrants for the most part could not afford to own a house in this country , most of them rent , this again is good for the economy , it means a farmer or a milkman even from kerry who bought a house or appartment in dublin 10 yrs ago and now rents it to a foreigner has some extra money coming in
there are many reasons why property is so expensive in this country , the economy boomed so naturally property prices went up , property was undervalued here for a long time , also the irish have an ingrained obsession with owning there own house , this also resulted in house prices shooting up

axer

djpbarry wrote:

Of course it does, but I repeat, what has that got to do with poor public transport?

I didnt say it had anything to do with porr public transport.

djpbarry wrote:

Are you suggesting that exorbitant property prices in Ireland are a result of immigration? Wouldn’t have anything do to with (mostly) Irish people buying up houses left, right and centre, would it?

No I am not suggesting that. I meant to say extra strain on housing.

djpbarry wrote:

Ok, what homeless “services” are you referring to?

Homeless shelters have been receiving immigrants who do/did not have a place to stay.

djpbarry wrote:

That is a ridiculous statement. First of all, put a number on the “lot of immigrants that don’t speak English”.

If the government themselves don't know this figure -how am I supposed to give you a figure?

djpbarry wrote:

Secondly, how “hard” it is for Gardaí to deal with it is irrelevant; human trafficking is still a criminal activity. The number of non-English speaking people in the country does not change the nature of the crime.

It makes it more difficult for the Gardai to track.

djpbarry wrote:

Such as?

It goes without saying that there is a greater risk of new diseases and the spread of diseases when you have more people coming from other countries.

djpbarry wrote:

You did:

You are proposing that we monitor immigrants’ activities.

I didn't propose it - I said we do not know that information.

djpbarry wrote:

It does.

Show me the proper monitoring of immigration to Ireland.

djpbarry wrote:

I never said that, but what you are proposing contravenes EU law.

Is it illegal to monitor immigration?

djpbarry wrote:

It seems to me you are seeing problems where they do not exist.

These are all possible problems caused by immigration as per your question.

axer

moe_sizlak wrote:

you say that immigrants drove up the price of houses

no I didnt

djpbarry

axer wrote:

I didnt say it had anything to do with porr public transport.

You are suggesting that more pressure is being placed on already "badly run services" by, specifically, non-English speaking immigrants. I am asking you for specific examples.

axer wrote:

I meant to say extra strain on housing.

Explain this "strain" and what "market" are you referring to exactly?

axer wrote:

Homeless shelters have been receiving immigrants who do/did not have a place to stay.

This is speculation - the vast majority of beggars / homeless people I encounter in Dublin are Irish. Besides, homeless charities are independent of the state and therefor would not be taken into consideration when any new legislation on immigration is drafted.

axer wrote:

If the government themselves don't know this figure -how am I supposed to give you a figure?

If you can't back something up with facts then it negates your point.

axer wrote:

It makes it more difficult for the Gardai to track.

So what? It's still a criminal activity!

axer wrote:

It goes without saying that there is a greater risk of new diseases and the spread of diseases when you have more people coming from other countries.

Yes, if they are coming from medieval Europe :rolleyes: . Facts please.

axer wrote:

I didn't propose it - I said we do not know that information.

Therefor, in your opinion, we should be obtaining this information?

axer wrote:

Show me the proper monitoring of immigration to Ireland.

Define "proper".

If you have an EU passport, you get in - simple as that. You cannot ask for the person's life history.

axer wrote:

Is it illegal to monitor immigration?

In the way you are suggesting, yes, it is. It is against EU law.

axer wrote:

These are all possible problems caused by immigration as per your question.

"Possible" indeed :rolleyes: .

liberty 2007

djpbarry wrote:

Why?!? How are we “threatened” by immigration?!?

Read your history books. Since the time of the pharaohs It usually ends in conflect or percecution

axer

djpbarry wrote:

You are suggesting that more pressure is being placed on already "badly run services" by, specifically, non-English speaking immigrants. I am asking you for specific examples.

There is extra pressure on Health Services due to immigration - increase volumes, the extra pressure of not being able to communicate with the patient meaning it takes longer to deal diagnose and deal with problems. Or better yet the pressure that the education system is being hit with. I'm not just talking about the extra capacity they have to deal with but the language and cultural differences aswell. That is more pressure. Will you deny it?

djpbarry wrote:

This is speculation - the vast majority of beggars / homeless people I encounter in Dublin are Irish. Besides, homeless charities are independent of the state and therefor would not be taken into consideration when any new legislation on immigration is drafted.

So...that doesn't mean there isn't extra pressure placed on these services by rapid immigration.

djpbarry wrote:

If you can't back something up with facts then it negates your point.

Are you telling me that there are very few non-english speaking immigrants coming into this country? This is a problem in Ireland that has the potential to become a major problem that will effect so many of the other issues and problems associated with immigration.

djpbarry wrote:

So what? It's still a criminal activity!

If it makes the Gardai's job more difficult then it puts strain on the service.

djpbarry wrote:

Yes, if they are coming from medieval Europe :rolleyes: . Facts please.

So are you saying that there are no diseases out there in other countries that are not already in ireland?

djpbarry wrote:

Therefor, in your opinion, we should be obtaining this information?

I'm sure the experts in immigration can do studies that can give this type of information.

djpbarry wrote:

Define "proper".

Proper as in information that can actually be used to control immigration. The minister for integration doesn't even know how many immigrants are in the country! That is not proper immigration monitoring nor is it proper immigration control.

djpbarry wrote:

If you have an EU passport, you get in - simple as that. You cannot ask for the person's life history.

I'll take it you believe the national census is illegal then?
Eu immigrants would have to be let in but that does not necessarily mean that the person would have to be allowed work or claim social welfare. Take Germany, Belgium, or Austria as examples where they put restrictions on immigrants from new eu members states to control the immigration so they would have time to be ready for them. That is immigration control.

djpbarry wrote:

In the way you are suggesting, yes, it is. It is against EU law.

What law? OK, I will now propose that we monitor and study immigration.

djpbarry wrote:

"Possible" indeed :rolleyes: .

So you think none of the problems I listed are problems that can happen due to immigration?

axer

Other issues include:
* Integration failures leading to Ghettoism
* Social Disharmony
* Loss of values e.g. freedom of speech, equality etc.
* With regards education - many resource teachers that would have traditionally helped children with learning difficulties are spending more time teaching english with the result that those with learning difficulties are losing out.

Immigration can cause problems if not managed correctly. Take a look at France, the UK, Holland etc. These places are having big problems because of mistakes and lack of planning and immigration control.

I am not saying all these problems exist in Ireland yet but they are highly possible. If we do not recognise the possible problems now then how can we plan for them now and ensure they won't materialise?

To think that there are no problems caused by bad planning and control of immigration is to live in a fairy world. Is Ireland a special country in that it is one of the only countries that doesn't/won't have problems because of immigration and bad planning/control of immigration?

I am just watching a prime time show about immigration from october 4th.
Chinedu Onyejelem, the editor of Metro Éireann and an immigrant says on it "I don't think any right thinking person would tell you that immigration is only about opportunities - there are problems" and I agree with him.

Also Dr Gerard Casey, UCD (dept of Philosophy), makes the good point that he didnt even want to go on the show to discuss immigration for fear of being labeled a racist. I think that is the point that what Kevin Meyers is trying to make.

Some other good points raised on the show is that there hasn't been one debate in Dail Eireann about the immigration and integration issue.

oscarBravo

liberty 2007 wrote:

Read your history books. Since the time of the pharaohs It usually ends in conflect or percecution

That's an extremely lazy contribution. Immigration (and, by definition) emigration - in short, migration - is a constant throughout history. Are you suggesting that nobody should ever change their country of domicile, and that conflict and persecution would thereby be eliminated?

djpbarry

axer wrote:

There is extra pressure on Health Services due to immigration

Are you serious? When was the last time you were in a hospital? Are you aware of the large number of foreign doctors and nurses working in our health system?

Most immigrants that come to this country are relatively young and don’t put much of a burden on the health service. Besides, if they’re paying taxes, they’re contributing towards its maintenance.

axer wrote:

that doesn't mean there is extra pressure placed on these services by rapid immigration

You are implying that the number of homeless people in this country has increased rapidly as a result of immigration. I am telling you that I do not believe this is the case (I am not saying there are NO foreign, homeless individuals), but feel free to prove me wrong.

axer wrote:

Are you telling me that there are very few non-english speaking immigrants coming into this country?

I am telling you that you are blowing this out of all proportion. Yes, there are people coming to this country who are not fluent in English, but it is hardly going to result in the nation grinding to a halt because of communication problems.

With regard to immigrant children who are not fluent in English, this problem is being dealt with. As far as I am aware, there are over 1,000 teachers in this country whose sole job is to teach English as a second language.

axer wrote:

If it makes the Gardai's job more difficult then it puts strain on the service.

But that is not the point. You are claiming that the job of the Gardaí (specifically, in tackling human trafficking) is being made more difficult by the supposedly massive number of non-English speaking people in this country. That does not take away from the fact that human trafficking is a criminal activity and is a separate issue to immigration. An immigrant comes to a country of their own free will. An individual who is trafficked into a country (often against their will) is the victim of a crime and, as such, cannot be put into the same category as a “regular” immigrant. How “difficult” it is for the Gardaí to deal with this does not make it any less of a criminal activity.

axer wrote:

So are you saying that there are no diseases out there in other countries that are not already in ireland?

I never said that, but I have already illustrated the folly of your argument. But, if you think that we are at risk of some sort of epidemic in this country then you should have no problem backing up your claim with some facts. What diseases are you talking about? AIDS? TB? Influenza? Diarrhoea?

axer wrote:

I'm sure the experts in immigration can do studies that can give this type of information

And once these “experts” have wasted our money doing these studies, then what? What good will it do us knowing there are x number of Poles working in coffee shops?

axer wrote:

Eu immigrants would have to be let in but that does not necessarily mean that the person would have to be allowed work or claim social welfare.

Do you not think it would be a bit daft allowing someone enter the country if you’re not going to allow them to work? You have to be making PRSI contributions for a minimum of 2 years (I think) before you can claim welfare.

axer wrote:

Take Germany, Belgium, or Austria as examples where they put restrictions on immigrants from new eu members states to control the immigration so they would have time to be ready for them. That is immigration control.

This is for a limited period and besides, (in my opinion) it goes against everything the EU stands for.

axer wrote:

Integration failures leading to Ghettoism

In some cases, such as the US, ghettos were formed because, by law, non-white people were forced to live in certain areas. In other countries (such as Ireland), immigrants will always gather in areas that offer the cheapest accommodation, e.g. in Dublin’s north city centre. It’s difficult to see what can be done to change this.

axer wrote:

* Social Disharmony
* Loss of values e.g. freedom of speech, equality etc

This is pretty wishy-washy stuff. How is my freedom of speech impacted upon by the Polish couple living next door?

axer wrote:

many resource teachers that would have traditionally helped children with learning difficulties are spending more time teaching english with the result that those with learning difficulties are losing out

Absolute nonsense.

axer wrote:

Take a look at France, the UK, Holland etc. These places are having big problems because of mistakes and lack of planning and immigration control.

You cannot compare our situation to the likes of Britain, France and Holland. These were colonial powers that had vast empires overseas.

axer wrote:

Is Ireland a special country in that it is one of the only countries that doesn't/won't have problems because of immigration and bad planning/control of immigration?

I never said that, but the so-called “problems” that you are pointing out either don’t exist or, if they do, you are blowing them out of proportion. For example, how often do you encounter someone in Ireland, through the course of your daily routine, who doesn’t speak English (who is not a tourist)? I honestly cannot recall a single such encounter.

axer wrote:

I am not saying all these problems exist in Ireland yet but they are highly possible

Anything is “possible” if the reasoning is based on groundless statements.

I personally do not see the value in conducting mass studies on immigration (with government funding, presumably?). What are they going to tell us that we do not already know? What makes you think they will be any more reliable than the census?

I would much rather the money and resources were channelled into the far more serious problems facing this country, such as our:

• Shambolic health service
• Poor (non-existent in some parts of the country) public transport
• Over-dependence on imported energy.
• Under-staffed and under-funded police force
• Under-funded education system

Let me put it like this; let’s suppose the government commissions a number of academics to conduct a rigorous, in-depth study of migrants in Ireland, at a cost of say €5 million. Let’s also assume, for the sake of argument, that there are zero errors in their final report. Great, we now know that there are exactly 11,538 Lithuanians working in retail in Ireland. So what? How will this information benefit us, bearing in mind that this money could have been much better spent elsewhere (in my opinion), e.g. on a new school?

It’s also worth mentioning that I would be very surprised if there are not academics (sociologists, etc.) in this country who are already conducting research in this area.