4-4-2 Magazine Top 100 Players

Mr Alan

An Citeog wrote:

No, it's the truth. Carragher is a quality defender and suits Liverpool down to the ground. His passion and willingness to get stuck in are what makes Liverpool fans love him so much.

He's never done that for England, though. Maybe it's a conspiracy or maybe every English manager was just completely oblivious to how good he was. I still believe, though, that the mark of truly great players is how well they perform at a world cup. And that's something Carragher has never managed to do.

George Best - **** player?

Schevchenko - ****?

Fowler - ****?

Cantona - ****?

Henry - ****?

Carragher never did well for England, cause he was never given a chance.

The - - - "you have to do well in a world cup to be great" argument does not hold ANY water.

The mark of a great player is how they perform week in, week out. And if they stand up to be counted when needed.

Carragher does both.

DSB

millersangel wrote:

because. . . . .

Because he is simply a better player. Carragher is a quality player but Vidic is something a great deal better. Vidic is equal and probably better to Carragher when it comes to getting stuck in and being a generally reliable centre-back. But then he makes himself even more useful as he is quite efficient coming forward for corners. I think Vidic scored 1 less last season than Carragher has in his career. I mean Carragher is a good quality player and all but he isn't up there with Terry and Vidic. There's a reason he doesn't get in the England team like. I mean i agree he is of better standard than Woodgate and King but I think Liverpool fans overrate him.

An Citeog

There are, of course, exceptions. All of those players are/were regulars for their respective national teams aswell. Carragher wasn't because it wass deemed that Sol Campbell/Rio Ferdinand and John Terry/Rio were better partnerships for the overall team.

Mr Alan

a decision that i always thought, most fans realised was a big steaming pile of ****e?!

DSB

An Citeog wrote:

There are, of course, exceptions.

I don't think its a case of it just being exceptions. Certain international teams just don't suit a player's style of play. I mean how well would Ronaldinho suit the likes of the German team? If a player performs well week in week out, season after season, he is a class act.

DSB

millersangel wrote:

a decision that i always thought, most fans realised was a big steaming pile of ****e?!

Do you honestly think Carragher was ever better than Campbell in his prime/Terry?

Mr Alan

So carra has done it week after week, for a few years.

Vidic has 1 good year for a Utd side, in the PL only, and not the best start to this year.

and all of a sudden he is better than him? nonsense

Mr Alan

Carragher is as good as Terry now imo, maybe Terry might edge it with the goals he scores, but Campbell has been sub par for a fair few years and Carra was never picked even during that period.

Carra is twice the player Rio is but yet always was left out of the team for him . . . silly silly silly decision.

An Citeog

millersangel wrote:

Carragher is as good as Terry now imo, maybe Terry might edge it with the goals he scores, but Campbell has been sub par for a fair few years and Carra was never picked even during that period.

Carra is twice the player Rio is but yet always was left out of the team for him . . . silly silly silly decision.

Carragher is a completely different type of player to Rio. He's also 29 and may have already reached his peak. Terry, Rio and Vidic still have a few years left at their best.

DSB

millersangel wrote:

Carra is twice the player Rio is but yet always was left out of the team for him . . . silly silly silly decision.

Rio brings something to the team that Carragher doesn't. He has ridiculous pace and is generally quite good on the ball. I mean he is prone to the odd howler and is a little bit suspect as a result. But there is no doubt that next to a big strong reliable centre back with a good header of the ball ie. Terry/Vidic you're onto a good thing. It's the same as not wanting to stick Rooney and Tevez up front together in my opinion.

Im_No_Superman

millersangel wrote:

a decision that i always thought, most fans realised was a big steaming pile of ****e?!

Carragher and Terry are Englands 2 best natural centre defenders but you couldnt play the two of them together as they would be too slow and neither are the best at bringing the ball out and passing it. Terry gets picked because he is better than Carragher imo, and Ferdinand gets picked because he can bring the ball out and play and is also a very good defender.
As for who is better between Vidic and Carragher, I think its much of a muchness really. Vidic does score more goals I suppose!

An Citeog

Im_No_Superman wrote:

Carragher and Terry are Englands 2 best natural centre defenders but you couldnt play the two of them together as they would be too slow and neither are the best at bringing the ball out and passing it. Terry gets picked because he is better than Carragher imo, and Ferdinand gets picked because he can bring the ball out and play and is also a very good defender.
As for who is better between Vidic and Carragher, I think its much of a muchness really. Vidic does score more goals I suppose!

Exactly! As for the comparison between Vidic and Carragher, I'll reserve judgement at least until Vidic has another season at United under his belt.

Mr Alan

I think anyone watching Carraghers game over the last few years couldnt help but notice the improvement he has displayed in bringing the ball out and playing passes.

not doubting Rio is a talented lad, but a defenders job is to defend first and foremost. Same for goes for Vidic. i'm also not doubting that with the age difference, both could surpass Jamies level, but at the moment, Vidic has 1 good season under his belt....and Rio regularly makes major,goal causing mistakes.

The list is about the best players in the world AT THE MINUTE, the other two lads potential shouldn't enter the equation.

Say you're winning the WC final 1-0 with 15 minutes to go....who would you prefer in your defence? Honestly. . . Rio or Jamie?

Jamie would tear of his arm and throw it at an attacker if he thought it would help the team, whereas Rio may or not get distracted by someone in the crowd who had Jaffa cakes and be at fault for a goal

Im_No_Superman

millersangel wrote:

I think anyone watching Carraghers game over the last few years couldnt help but notice the improvement he has displayed in bringing the ball out and playing passes.

not doubting Rio is a talented lad, but a defenders job is to defend first and foremost. Same for goes for Vidic. i'm also not doubting that with the age difference, both could surpass Jamies level, but at the moment, Vidic has 1 good season under his belt....and Rio regularly makes major,goal causing mistakes.

The list is about the best players in the world AT THE MINUTE, the other two lads potential shouldn't enter the equation.

Say you're winning the WC final 1-0 with 15 minutes to go....who would you prefer in your defence? Honestly. . . Rio or Jamie?

Jamie would tear of his arm and throw it at an attacker if he thought it would help the team, whereas Rio may or not get distracted by someone in the crowd who had Jaffa cakes and be at fault for a goal

I think we have all decided that list is aload of crap so I wouldnt be too bothered about it. Im not deining that Carragher is a fantastic defender and has been immense for Liverpool over the last few seasons. But I just dont believe him and Terry together as a partnership at the centre of the defence would be as good as Terry and Rio. I think Carragher has just been unlucky in the sense that Terry has excelled in the last 5 years or so or else he would have alot more caps than he already has.

Mr Alan

Im_No_Superman wrote:

I think we have all decided that list is aload of crap so I wouldnt be too bothered about it. Im not deining that Carragher is a fantastic defender and has been immense for Liverpool over the last few seasons. But I just dont believe him and Terry together as a partnership at the centre of the defence would be as good as Terry and Rio. I think Carragher has just been unlucky in the sense that Terry is has excelled in the last 5 years or so or else he would have alot more caps than he already has.

alright, i'll let it go

BUT last thing....the fact that carragher and terry may or may not be suited to playing at the back for England, does not change the fact that, he should be definately ahead of Vidic in that poll, and imo, ahead of Ferdinand.

DSB

Nah. He isn't better than either. They both do what they do better than Carragher does what he does.

Im_No_Superman

millersangel wrote:

alright, i'll let it go

BUT last thing....the fact that carragher and terry may or may not be suited to playing at the back for England, does not change the fact that, he should be definately ahead of Vidic in that poll, and imo, ahead of Ferdinand.

Well seeing as I think the poll is ridculous anyways Ill let you have that!

kryogen

rio is both overestimated by people that love him and underestimated by those that dont, naturally, the truth of the matter with rio is that he is vitally important to man u and englands defence, he reads the game as well as anybody in the game and better then most.he holds the defensive line to a tee, he keeps talking so that everybody around him stays focused. hes quick and hes comfortable on the ball. sure he lets his focus slip too regularly for my liking but its generally when we are comfortably winning a game and he just seems to switch off, i dont like it but im not going to hold it against him in terms of whether he deserves a place or not, he doesnt lose concentration when we are under pressure and thats what matters most of the time....

vidic, vidic had the makings of an absolutly fantastic centre half, what has he done wrong this season by the way? have we conceded more goals then liverpool? so you cant really use that as an arguement for why he couldnt be considered as good if not better then carragher. both defenses have conceded the same amount. vidic attacks the ball, loves to defend, absolutely loves it, he enjoys getting stuck in and i think the area where he really edges carra out is in his goalscoring, he is always likely to get on the end of something from a corner, he very nearly scored against sunderland with a volley from a corner that just went over..

i think he is a better defender then carragher, i have never really seen what all the fuss was about carragher anyway tbh, im not just saying it because im a united fan either, i do look at players objectively! i cant see what makes him stand out more then sol campbell in his prime, or john terry, who i think is slightly overrated also.....he gets away with alot of things that i suspect if he wasnt john terry he would not get away with!! manhandling players is what im talking about by the way! and i wold love to see how he does if he didnt have a makelele or essien in front of him stopping everything before he has to!

liverpool fans are fiercely loyal to carra and fair enough, thats their perogotive, but it does not mean that hes a world class defender just because you worship him. i dont tell you that wes brown is world class even though i think hes a very good player, just not great going forward!

tdv

millersangel wrote:

vidic is ahead of Carragher? for real?

gerrard is a far better player than Riquelme btw

Well in his dreams yes, he is a better player but on the pitch not so much.

kryogen

tdv wrote:

Well in his dreams yes, he is a better player but on the pitch not so much.

QFT

DSB

Peter Crouch is better than Thierry Henry aswell. And Reina is also better than Cech.

kryogen

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

now that deserves some sort of award for funniest post in the thread!

DSB

Haha thanks

chopperbyrne

KdjaCL wrote:

Some british media oddness

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/teams/c/chelsea/6980569.stm
http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,11661_2709856,00.html

http://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2007/0904/germany.html

Anyone spot it? free pint at the 1st boards soccer beers for whoever gets it.


kdjac

rté have it spelt Loew. BBC and Sky have it spelt Low.

Mr Alan

kryogen wrote:

vidic, vidic had the makings of an absolutly fantastic centre half, what has he done wrong this season by the way? have we conceded more goals then liverpool? so you cant really use that as an arguement for why he couldnt be considered as good if not better then carragher. both defenses have conceded the same amount. vidic attacks the ball, loves to defend, absolutely loves it, he enjoys getting stuck in and i think the area where he really edges carra out is in his goalscoring, he is always likely to get on the end of something from a corner, he very nearly scored against sunderland with a volley from a corner that just went over..

i think he is a better defender then carragher, i have never really seen what all the fuss was about carragher anyway tbh, im not just saying it because im a united fan either, i do look at players objectively! i cant see what makes him stand out more then sol campbell in his prime, or john terry, who i think is slightly overrated also.....he gets away with alot of things that i suspect if he wasnt john terry he would not get away with!! manhandling players is what im talking about by the way! and i wold love to see how he does if he didnt have a makelele or essien in front of him stopping everything before he has to!

liverpool fans are fiercely loyal to carra and fair enough, thats their perogotive, but it does not mean that hes a world class defender just because you worship him. i dont tell you that wes brown is world class even though i think hes a very good player, just not great going forward!

Vidic, has one proper season under his belt, i honestly don't even think its fair to compare him to Carragher.

Goals issue is irrelevant to me when discussing (CB) a defender, their job is to prevent goals.

Using YOUR logic that Carragher obviously isn't better as Utd have conceded the same amount of goals as Liverpool, doesnt hold any water either, if anything actually, it works in Carras favour as for the last two seasons Liverpool have conceded less goals than Utd. Surely those things should be judged over a season and not 4 games?

Also, if i'm not mistaken, wasn't Franco Breasi signing Carraghers praises calling him one of the top defenders in the world? Now theres a man that knows a thing or two about defending.

Agree about Terry getting away with a lot cause of who he has, but again, he is a better defender hands down, than Rio or Vidic.


If i'm being honest, I'd compare Vidic more to Agger. Newcomer with a lot of promise and good first full seasons under their belt. oooohhhhhhh controversial!

An Citeog

millersangel wrote:

Vidic, has one proper season under his belt, i honestly don't even think its fair to compare him to Carragher.

Goals issue is irrelevant to me when discussing (CB) a defender, their job is to prevent goals.

Using YOUR logic that Carragher obviously isn't better as Utd have conceded the same amount of goals as Liverpool, doesnt hold any water either, if anything actually, it works in Carras favour as for the last two seasons Liverpool have conceded less goals than Utd. Surely those things should be judged over a season and not 4 games?

You also have to take into consideration the way the teams were set up to play last year. Liverpool played with 2 holding midfielders sitting in front of the back four. This made them extremely solid and good defensively but took away from their attack.

Mr Alan

it wasnt me who broought goals conceded into it, it was kryogen (Utd fan), i was just pointing out to him that if that was the way to judge a defender, Carra wins hands down.

ntlbell

_real_ Liverpool fans and football fans alike like cara for the simple fact the 110% comitment 110% of the time, what the clowns who think he's world class fail to realise is that all the jumping around and last ditch tackles are because he is slow and isn't a great reader of the game that someone like nesta is so it actually looks like cara is doing a lot more, where all he's doing is making up for his lack of skill and pace as a defender.


effort != skill

LuckyLloyd

Am I actually reading posts that attempt to argue the point that Vidic is a better centre - half than Carragher? Like, really? Wow.

The respective placings of Carragher and Ferdinand is the clearest example of why lists like this are very silly and ultimately pointless. Think very hard about Messi's placing in the list also. Really think about it.

I knew I shouldn't have clicked on this thread.

Mr Alan

ntlbell wrote:

what the clowns who think he's world class fail to realise is that all the jumping around and last ditch tackles are because he is slow and isn't a great reader of the game

effort != skill
[/LEFT]

Franco Braesi = Clown?

LuckyLloyd

ntlbell wrote:

_real_ Liverpool fans and football fans alike like cara for the simple fact the 110% comitment 110% of the time, what the clowns who think he's world class fail to realise is that all the jumping around and last ditch tackles are because he is slow and isn't a great reader of the game that someone like nesta is so it actually looks like cara is doing a lot more, where all he's doing is making up for his lack of skill and pace as a defender.


effort != skill

NTL, I have a lot of time for your posts on this forum. And there is no doubt that Nesta is a better player than Carragher. However, Carragher has played center - half for a Liverpool side that has had a good defensive record over the past few seasons. He has performed excellently in really big pressure games. There are very few instances where a goal can be directly attributed to a mistake he made, a lapse in his concentration - or a situation where he could have done a little bit more. And yeah, he brings it all the time and always gives you 100%+.

The question about who you would want at the back in a huge match with 15 left and you're hanging on is worthy of consideration. Out of centre - halves in the premiership I would have Terry and Carragher and it isn't really close.

Attractive Nun

millersangel wrote:

Vidic, has one proper season under his belt, i honestly don't even think its fair to compare him to Carragher.

You keep making the point about Vidic only having one season under his belt. And granted, the Serbian and Russian leagues are hardly the best place to judge a player, but in fairness Vidic was captain of a double-winning Serbian side and performed well (although I am only assuming he performed well tbh based on the fact that he made 39 appearances in his short time there and United saw fit to sign him based on that) in a decent team, Spartak Moscow. He was also part of the Serbian defence that conceded just one goal in World Cup qualifying - a defence, incidentally, that shipped 6 against Argentina without him in the World Cup.

Vidic is 25, has been playing professional football for 6-7 years and has been consistently a fantastic defender. Like any player, he might lose form and never really recover, but there is no reason to think that he will. I think it's unfair of you to try paint him as some unproven youngster who may have just fluked a good season last year. Sure, Carragher has more experience and has done more in football, but the list - although almost wholly inaccurate - is about players today. Both Carragher and Vidic have done more than enough in football to prove they are capable of playing quality football, consistently, over many seasons.

As for the Carragher vs Vidic debate, I'd regard them as about as good as each other tbh. Vidic has better distribution and is better going forward, but Carragher has badges from Champions League finals and such, showing he is capable of performing under the greatest of pressure. If I was picking a squad, I'd prefer Vidic because of his age, but if I was picking a squad for a World Cup or something tomorrow, I couldn't pick between them.

Attractive Nun

millersangel wrote:

Franco Braesi = Clown?

Roy Keane = Clown! :eek:

Mr Alan

Ok i'll rephrase, Vidic has one proper season in the PL (any decent league).... happy now?

He may have been good at previous clubs, but he can only be really judged when playing in a decent league

wats the Roy Keane reference about?

Raskolnikov

tdv wrote:

06 is Gerrard & at 31 is Riquelme. All of it is a pile of bollox excepet for number 1.

To be honest, I wouldn't even put Riquelme in the top 100, let alone 31.

Mr Alan

i think i agree, lovely footballer to watch but cant impose himself on a game the way a ''great'' midfielder should.

LuckyLloyd

Raskolnikov wrote:

To be honest, I wouldn't even put Riquelme in the top 100, let alone 31.

yeah QFT. I wonder how many of those trumputing his greatness have watched him over an extended sample size.

Attractive Nun

millersangel wrote:

Ok i'll rephrase, Vidic has one proper season in the PL (any decent league).... happy now?

He may have been good at previous clubs, but he can only be really judged when playing in a decent league

Well my only point is that, IMO, Vidic has done enough to show that his performances are due to ability rather than just temporary good form, and thus he should be judged based on last season, and this season's form.

wats the Roy Keane reference about?

I'm just agreeing with you, that a player's willingness to put in effort in a match has a lot to do with how good a player is. If you were to dismiss Carragher from a list like this because he was merely 'an average footballer who gives 110% every time', then you would have to dismiss the likes of Roy Keano too.

(I didn't put this in the most clear manner, granted - bad quoting on my part)

Mr Alan

apologies, your point about Roy Keane is a good one. Won't find any Utd fans rushing to argue that he shouldnt feature in any lists

Kanney

Jesus Carragher at 97.
Rio at 24.
How the hell are Shay Given and Steve Finnan missing.

Bit of a joke really. Is there a proper spread on this in the magazine? Might get it.

ntlbell

millersangel wrote:

Franco Braesi = Clown?

Meh, he was prob mis quoted :P

i was referring to certain blinded liverpool fans.

Attractive Nun

Esteban Cambiasso is also missing.

As an additional point - Daniel Alves is just outside the top 10. And other lists I've seen have placed him in similar positions without too much complaint. Do people really regard him as that good? Better than Drogba like?

ntlbell

LuckyLloyd wrote:

N

The question about who you would want at the back in a huge match with 15 left and you're hanging on is worthy of consideration. Out of centre - halves in the premiership I would have Terry and Carragher and it isn't really close.

But the list isn't based on who you want in the last 15 mins of a high preasure game, it's about the top 100 players. not the top 100 players with big hearts

cara has a huge heart and i love his commitment and his heart and wish rio had the same.

rio's position in the table is wrong imo, but that doesn't mean cara's position should be improved.

cara lacks a lot of skill, he lacks a world class footballing brain what he does't lack is heart but as i said this list is not based on the heart.

Mr Alan

No I haven't been overly impressed with him anytime i've watched him (which is quite a bit when all the talk of him to Liverpool was around)

Ntlbell: Am i a blinded liverpool fan?

Attractive Nun

what he does't lack is heart but as i said this list is not based on the heart.

Surely it should be a consideration? Where would Adriano be on this list if he had Carragher's heart?

ntlbell

Attractive Nun wrote:

Surely it should be a consideration? Where would Adriano be on this list if he had Carragher's heart?

i think they took cara's heart into consideration hence why he made it into the top 100, without it, he wouldn't be there at all.

Mr Alan

People seem to have an impression of carragher as a slobbering cave man who can't kick sh*t of a rope and has no brain.

Couldn't be further from the truth-however lets let people keep thinking that while Liverpool concede less goals than anyone else in the League.

ntlbell

millersangel wrote:

while Liverpool concede less goals than anyone else in the League.

And still end up 4th

Mr Alan

3rd last two years ACTUALLY! :P

Attractive Nun

ntlbell wrote:

i think they took cara's heart into consideration hence why he made it into the top 100, without it, he wouldn't be there at all.

Perhaps. But that's like saying Cristiano Ronaldo wouldn't be number 2 without his pace. Or that Kaka wouldn't be number 1 if he had no legs. It's true, but it's a pointless thing to say.