The Mahon Tribunal-discussion (please read this threads first post before replying)

Dave!

cast_iron wrote:

@JerkyBoy:
All god and well, but what does it prove? That his finances were a shambles and it's all highly dubious? Yes. That he took bribes or did anything else illegal? Apparently not.

It doesn't have to prove that he took a bribe. The fact that such a high ranking government minister has been engaging in transactions that could have bought him a few houses at the time, and he can't give a plausible explanation for it, as well as that he can't account for huge lodgements made on his behalf, is grounds enough for his dismissal in my books.

meglome

I really am incredulous at this point. I appreciate that people may support one political party over another but the way people are patting Bertie on the back the whole time is getting on my nerves. I'm not party political whatsoever so I'm only looking at this from the point of view of justice and fairness. In what reality is it okay for the leader of a country to have such dodgy financial dealings. Seriously we'd be saying how terrible it was if this was happening in some third world country with such inequality in those countries. But when Bertie was holding all this money under his mattress people in Ireland didn't have the kind of money they have today so there was plenty of inequality. It really is making me angry that no one in the whole Fianna Fail party will say anything bad about it. His story is a joke. I'm at the point where I'll never vote for those ****ers again ever, unless the opposition are all crack addicts. Rant over.

Mr.Nice Guy

meglome wrote:

I really am incredulous at this point. I appreciate that people may support one political party over another but the way people are patting Bertie on the back the whole time is getting on my nerves. I'm not party political whatsoever so I'm only looking at this from the point of view of justice and fairness. In what reality is it okay for the leader of a country to have such dodgy financial dealings. Seriously we'd be saying how terrible it was if this was happening in some third world country with such inequality in those countries. But when Bertie was holding all this money under his mattress people in Ireland didn't have the kind of money they have today so there was plenty of inequality. It really is making me angry that no one in the whole Fianna Fail party will say anything bad about it. His story is a joke. I'm at the point where I'll never vote for those ****ers again ever, unless the opposition are all crack addicts. Rant over.

The fact that people in the gallery applauded when Ahern said he couldn't remember what he had done with his finances shows how f*cked up this country really is.

O'Cuiv on Questions and Answers the other night was a disgrace as well saying that sometimes people forget things. As Brian Hayes pointed out, "you don't forget what you did with £50,000."

The really sad thing is that in a few month's time they'll probably do a poll and Ahern will come out as the most popular leader in the country. It'd be funny if it wasn't so damn pathetic.

meglome

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

O'Cuiv on Questions and Answers the other night was a disgrace as well saying that sometimes people forget things. As Brian Hayes pointed out, "you don't forget what you did with £50,000."

O'Cuiv was terrible on Questions and Answers. That was the least convincing political performance I've seen in quite a while (leaving aside Bertie). I enjoyed Brian Hayes ripping into him.

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

The really sad thing is that in a few month's time they'll probably do a poll and Ahern will come out as the most popular leader in the country. It'd be funny if it wasn't so damn pathetic.

Sadly I agree.

patrickc

bertie is as corrupt as CJ ive always said and and I'll always maintain it

Mexicola

DaveMcG wrote:

It doesn't have to prove that he took a bribe. The fact that such a high ranking government minister has been engaging in transactions that could have bought him a few houses at the time, and he can't give a plausible explanation for it, as well as that he can't account for huge lodgements made on his behalf, is grounds enough for his dismissal in my books.

I couldnt have said it better myself.

JerkyBoy

After reading the transcripts of Bertie's final day before the Tribunal it's clear to me that the Larkin lodgment is now most likely 45,000 dollars.

Bertie maintained all along that he had a magic mathematical formula which would prove that the transaction had to be sterling. That formula, Bertie has now conceeded before the Tribunal, doesn't stand up and is not applicable.

Bertie claimed there were 67 possibilities which proved his case...each of the 67 has been blown out of the water, and Bertie Ahern has agreed with the Tribunal that this is so.

Bertie also said he retained an expert who would prove that the lodgement was not dollars.
It turns out this expert merely expressed his opinion that it was not dollars. The expert report contained no formulas, facts or figures...just opinion and belief. Incredible!!!

Judging from what I've read from the Tribunal's questioning and testimony...I reckon they're gonna rule that the lodgement was in their opinion, weighing all the possibilites and probabilites, most likely a 45,000 dollar transaction. They have effectively shown that it could not have been sterling.

Dave!

http://newstalk.ie/newstalk/news/806/fine-gael-to-table-motion-of-no-confidence-in-the-taoiseach.html

Fine Gael gonna table a motion of no confidence!

The Dáil resumes at 2.30pm I believe.

walshb

Maybe I'm wrong but I believe the whole tribunal and everything to do with it is an absolute disgrace. It's a money racket and at the end of the day, Ahern will never resign and will NOT be found guilty of any crime because the tribunal is a sham. Those solicitors will drag and drag and drag it out as long as possible, because ultimately, they are the winneres as they are the ones earning massive amounts of taxpayers money. Ahern's got the full backing of his party and the greens, which makes it very difficult to get to the truth.

All it takes is for one person with an ounce of honesty to stand up and say enouh is enough. I believe Ahern is not fit to be leading our country. There are simply too many inconsistencies in his testimony and he did wrong IMO.
Maybe not criminally, but for the leader of the country, surely we can expect the highest standards.

If this was Britain, he'd never have even made it to the witnes box. He'd be sacked....

Jonny Arson

DaveMcG wrote:

http://newstalk.ie/newstalk/news/806/fine-gael-to-table-motion-of-no-confidence-in-the-taoiseach.html

Fine Gael gonna table a motion of no confidence!

about time, in my opinion this is coming 12 months too late, maybe a smack of opportunitism from FG but this motion has to be submitted and it is clear to any rationally thinking person that Ahern is not fit to be Taoiseach for his constant changing of versions of his story under oath, failing to fully cooperate with the tribunal... etc. etc.

not a chance in hell of this passing unless Greens/PDs want to pull out of government or a FF backbench rebellion occurs

with FF certain to propose a counter motion of confidence in Ahern this will firmly nail everyone's colours to the mast over this Ahern saga...... if the Greens vote for this they can't go back on it and i'm certain this WILL be a day they are going to regret for a long long time...... same goes for other Ahern money affair critics pre-May 2007 such as Finian McGrath

either way this motion of no confidence from FG sets out the opposition's stall for this Dail term, they have to go out all guns blazing not only over Ahern but Health, Economy etc.

Red Alert

I noticed over on breakingnews.ie that 'pairing' will occur with opposition TD's of FF'ers who are away on business. Is this mandatory or by gentleman's agreement? Surely if the matter is that serious then the opposition should make hay while the sun shines.

Mick86

walshb wrote:

Maybe I'm wrong but I believe the whole tribunal and everything to do with it is an absolute disgrace. .....There are simply too many inconsistencies in his testimony and he did wrong IMO.
Maybe not criminally, but for the leader of the country, surely we can expect the highest standards.

Without the tribunal, Aherns dodgy past would never have come to light.

Dave!

Apparantly the government have countered the opposition with a motion of confidence in the Taoiseach. The debate is going on now and the vote will be at 9pm.

You can stream the video live through the oireachtas.ie website.

The Taoiseach is speaking now.

Akrasia

Did I hallucinate, or did Bertie just say he had 20 bank accounts at the time when he claimed to the public and the tribunal that he had none?

This guy is a complete and utter joke.

walshb

Mick86 wrote:

Without the tribunal, Aherns dodgy past would never have come to light.

But don't you think it is purely going thru the motions?
I am not saying it is not needed. I am saying it's a farce and
is not asking the tough questions.
These people conducting the tribunal couldn't give a toss
what Bertie did or did not do. They still are getting
paid and the longer they drag it out, the more we will have to pay them.

It doesn't take a bleedin rocket scientist or a tribunal to tell me that Ahern
is BENT. That is obvious, and like I said previously, if it were Blair or Brown, there
would be no need for a long drawn out money racket tribunal.
Ahern has admitted to taking money, he knows it was wrong and we all know
it was wrong. His ministers Know and still he's riding it out, as are the whole lot of them...

Mick86

walshb wrote:

But don't you think it is purely going thru the motions?...

I'd say that it appears that Bertie has a case to answer. At this stage in a grown up country there would be a police investigation under way. In our "will you have a pint or a transfer" democracy, the police will only move when they have absolutely no other choice.

Do you wonder that the tribunals are just going through the motions. The people who run these things are from the ruling class. They attended the same schools more or less together. If the intention was to assign guilt we'd have a real trial but trials are for the little people, not for dodgy politicians. Tribunals are there to give the impression of taking action and to produce a huge amount of paper that no mortal will ever trawl through to find out for himself what went on.They also have the added attraction of prejudicing any potential criminal trial.

Mick86

Akrasia wrote:

Did I hallucinate, or did Bertie just say he had 20 bank accounts at the time when he claimed to the public and the tribunal that he had none?

This guy is a complete and utter joke.

Really. I thought he kept all his money under the mattress.

Akrasia

Akrasia wrote:

Did I hallucinate, or did Bertie just say he had 20 bank accounts at the time when he claimed to the public and the tribunal that he had none?

This guy is a complete and utter joke.

Breakingnews mention the 20 bank accounts him and his family had.

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/breaking/2007/0926/breaking10.htm

He also denied allegations that he not co-operated with the tribunal and said he had unearthed a "valuminous" amount of information for the tribunal including details of more than 20 bank accounts in his and his family members' names.

Fuascailt

No confidence was defeated of course. Wouldn't it have been great if there was a backbencher rebellion?

The Irish have always had an affinity with the "rogue" or the "chancer". You know the likes of it "Sure he's a nice fella, we'll let him of with it" "sure he's done so much for the country" " Sure he doesnt show off any big money"In my opinion, these are the people who know nothing about politics.

Fianna Fáil has a culture of corruption. Jack Lynch was one of their only honest leaders, and he couldnt handle them. Remember how Charlie Haughey described Bertie "the most brilliant, the most cunning, the most devious of them all". I fell sorry for the honest FFers- Mícheal Martin, Brian Cowen and the like. They know full well what happened and are having to defend him, for fear of backlash from the people.
History will be the ultimate judge of Bertie Ahern.

There doesn't seem to have been any FFer's on this thread...

Dave!

God the Greens are a spineless bunch. After the moral highground they adopted during the election, they should be ripped apart in the media for this.

Look at this quote from Trevor Sargent:

“We cannot allow cynicism about our democratic system to grow. Shame on you, Taoiseach, for undermining the people’s trust. Shame on you for bringing the office of Taoiseach into disrepute,” Mr Sargent said.

“By anyone’s standards, including your own expressed standards, you should not be Taoiseach today. You have lost moral authority. What you have done is not right. It is unethical, improper, and not befitting of high office.”

And he finished by calling for the Taoiseach to resign: “I give you your choices, Taoiseach: take positive action to clean up Irish politics. Do the decent thing and resign – or give the electorate the choice between your politics and mine.”
http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/?jp=CWQLSNEYIDKF

What the HELL?!?! They've lost any credibility as far as I'm concerned. Trevor Sargent resigned as leader so that he wouldn't have to lead the Greens into government with FF. Now, with more damning facts emerging from the tribunal, he votes for a motion of confidence in the same person.

What a sham of a man.

I hope to god the media have the sack to tear these people apart.

I'm appalled today. The Greens have nailed their colours to the mast, and I hope they go down with the boat.

cast_iron

DaveMcG wrote:

God the Greens are a spineless bunch.
.
.
What the HELL?!?! They've lost any credibility as far as I'm concerned.
.
.
I'm appalled today. The Greens have nailed their colours to the mast, and I hope they go down with the boat.

This I find funny.

They spouted so much sh1te over the last few years (along with FG an Labour), but now realise being in Govt isn't quite as easy as all the rhetoric they were shouting.

Don't get me wrong, it would be the same from FF if they were in opposition, but how can people not realise that the noise oppositions make is just that.
Just one example, there isn't a party in the country that would axe the Shannon flights if they were in power. The most likely of all would be....eh...the Greens.

Sorry for the off-topic.

meglome

DaveMcG wrote:

God the Greens are a spineless bunch. After the moral highground they adopted during the election, they should be ripped apart in the media for this.

Look at this quote from Trevor Sargent:



What the HELL?!?! They've lost any credibility as far as I'm concerned. Trevor Sargent resigned as leader so that he wouldn't have to lead the Greens into government with FF. Now, with more damning facts emerging from the tribunal, he votes for a motion of confidence in the same person.

What a sham of a man.

I hope to god the media have the sack to tear these people apart.

I'm appalled today. The Greens have nailed their colours to the mast, and I hope they go down with the boat.

The really sad thing is that the Greens will end up being the fall guys for Fianna Fail like the PD's were.

Mick86

Fuascailt wrote:

...I fell sorry for the honest FFers- Mícheal Martin, Brian Cowen and the like. They know full well what happened and are having to defend him, for fear of backlash from the people.....

An honest man would not defend a thief. All members of FF are tarred with the same brush.

Mick86

meglome wrote:

The really sad thing is that the Greens will end up being the fall guys for Fianna Fail like the PD's were.

And rightly so. Without the Greens the Government would have lost the Motion of No Confidence. Green hypocrisy is keeping FF corruption in power.

Akrasia

cast_iron wrote:

This I find funny.

They spouted so much sh1te over the last few years (along with FG an Labour), but now realise being in Govt isn't quite as easy as all the rhetoric they were shouting.

Don't get me wrong, it would be the same from FF if they were in opposition, but how can people not realise that the noise oppositions make is just that.
Just one example, there isn't a party in the country that would axe the Shannon flights if they were in power. The most likely of all would be....eh...the Greens.

Sorry for the off-topic.

And this is why I refuse to vote.

You can't trust any of them to follow through on their promises. They would all sell their own mother for power, even though the irony is that if they had any real power, they wouldn't need to sell their mother.

JerkyBoy

The Green's green-politics principles have clearly been sold out, in exchange for the ability to pursue and implement their green policies in Government.

They will likely claim that more good can come from their implementation of Green policies in a Bertie Ahern Government than outside of Government.

However, this is a cop-out, and it is going to hurt them with the public...and I can see them taking the fall much like the PDs of the past.

They clearly lack balls, which is a dissapointment, because before the election they appeared to be the only party with a pair!

Now they all need to go home and wash their vaginas...

walshb

Mick86 wrote:

I'd say that it appears that Bertie has a case to answer. At this stage in a grown up country there would be a police investigation under way. In our "will you have a pint or a transfer" democracy, the police will only move when they have absolutely no other choice.

Do you wonder that the tribunals are just going through the motions. The people who run these things are from the ruling class. They attended the same schools more or less together. If the intention was to assign guilt we'd have a real trial but trials are for the little people, not for dodgy politicians. Tribunals are there to give the impression of taking action and to produce a huge amount of paper that no mortal will ever trawl through to find out for himself what went on.They also have the added attraction of prejudicing any potential criminal trial.

Spot on Mick!!!!!

Akrasia

JerkyBoy wrote:

The Green's green-politics principles have clearly been sold out, in exchange for the ability to pursue and implement their green policies in Government.

They will likely claim that more good can come from their implementation of Green policies in a Bertie Ahern Government than outside of Government.

However, this is a cop-out, and it is going to hurt them with the public...and I can see them taking the fall much like the PDs of the past.

They clearly lack balls, which is a dissapointment, because before the election they appeared to be the only party with a pair!

Now they all need to go home and wash their vaginas...

Yeah.
The major flaw in their lapdog policy is that if they had stood up to Bertie and stood up for their principles, then the new government might have fallen by now, and the greens would have been perfectly poised to pick up extra seats from an electorate who would be highly anti FF (especially in the west, and everywhere they are implementing hospital cutbacks.

mike65

The green tide never happened and never will now, there is'nt even a thread about the vote and the greens backing Bertie Ahern. I guess the lack of outrage says it all.

Mike.

Mick86

mike65 wrote:

The green tide never happened and never will now, there is'nt even a thread about the vote and the greens backing Bertie Ahern. I guess the lack of outrage says it all.

Mike.

Those who were outraged at the Greens backing Ahern said what they had to say after the government was formed. Once Sargent signed up for the coalition (the one he said he would never enter) the Greens had sold their soul. They are now left with no choice but to follow Bertie all the way since this might be their first and last shot at government.