The Mahon Tribunal-discussion (please read this threads first post before replying)

ballooba

Cecelia -> Daughter
Celia -> Mistress/"Life Partner"

Easy to mix up the names.

I'm lost without P.ie too.

El Stuntman

partholon wrote: »

i still get annoyed when they call it "a loan" instead of "an alleged loan" as 15yrs without making a payment does not a loan make, particularly when the only reason you paid the money back was you were rumbled by the tribunals. plus they keep saying she bought the house for her aunt. if thats so whys the aunts name not on the deeds? the correct statement is "cecelia larkin bought the house to let her aunt live in."

i know its only a small difference but it portrays what actually happened instead of regurgitating a particular spin on the events. RTE have been lax in this regard

I agree and I wish they would call the 'dig-outs' what they are: 'alleged dig-outs'

partholon

oooh, suckerpuch revelation on RTE 1 coverage . apparently the B/T accounts only signature is tim collins, in which he's stated with the bank that legally the money in the account is his and if collins hadve kicked the bucket the money wouldve gone to collins family.

seems to contradict the statement that the money is FFs . according to the news collins statement du jour was "i cant explain that" when faced with stuff like this. also denied that while D/T account stood for des/tim B/T could possiblbly be bertie/tim. .

Akrasia

partholon wrote: »

oooh, suckerpuch revelation on RTE 1 coverage . apparently the B/T accounts only signature is tim collins, in which he's stated with the bank that legally the money in the account is his and if collins hadve kicked the bucket the money wouldve gone to collins family.

seems to contradict the statement that the money is FFs . according to the news collins statement du jour was "i cant explain that" when faced with stuff like this. also denied that while D/T account stood for des/tim B/T could possiblbly be bertie/tim. .

That would also contradict the claim that the account was administrated by 'trustees' and the decision to 'loan' the money to Celia was somehow an independent decision that ahern would have had nothing to do with

partholon

El Stuntman wrote: »

I agree and I wish they would call the 'dig-outs' what they are: 'alleged dig-outs'

i responded to a thread in politics.ie in which after carefully analyzing berties statements in the dobbo interview on RTE i discovered that at no stage does bertie ever refer to the digouts as loans. he calls em "debts of honor" and he "always intended to pay em back", but never directly calls em loans despite that being the status theyve achieved in the media now.

he use's the term loan several times but its only in realtion to the AIB one he took out to pay the solicitors fees et al in his seperation

but yeah, alleged digouts is the right phrase as it goes to the heart of the issue. if they dont exist then you have to ask where the money came from and that adds weight to the bung claim

DancesWithChimp

Wow...Irish Independent today pretty much flat-out calling Ahern a liar:

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/mahon-tribunal/nothing-trustworthy-about-these-latest-strands-of-evidence-1316155.html

And check out the devastating revelations at the bottom of the article...

All this business of 20,000 going in and out of the account...really at this stage is there anyone left naive enough to believe Ahern's stories?

I think pretty soon we are going to be able to refer to Ahern as a liar without getting banned in here...but that day is not here yet.

So for now we'll leave it to the newspapers to call a spade a spade and remind us that if it walks like a duck, and quacks like duck...well you know the rest.

partholon

DancesWithChimp wrote: »

Wow...Irish Independent today pretty much flat-out calling Ahern a liar:

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/mahon-tribunal/nothing-trustworthy-about-these-latest-strands-of-evidence-1316155.html

And check out the devastating revelations at the bottom of the article...

All this business of 20,000 going in and out of the account...really at this stage is there anyone left naive enough to believe Ahern's stories?

I think pretty soon we are going to be able to refer to Ahern as a liar without getting banned in here...but that day is not here yet.

So for now we'll leave it to the newspapers to call a spade a spade and remind us that if it walks like a duck, and quacks like duck...well you know the rest.

thanks for the link man.

i was looking at some of the "related" stories links at the end of the page. mother of god the amount of money that was going though that account! and for once a financial institution actually kept the records!! im fecking stunned at that !

it really is dodgy looking as fcuk. taking 20k out to get a wall fixed, by ray burke of all people, and then having to admit he didnt give it to him directly leaving it in the office and saying "make sure ray gets this" and THEN finding out the jobs too big so ray does nothing meaning the job gets done years later at over four times the cost.

now i can buy the last bit but then expecting us to believe the 20k lodged two months later was the 20k "given" to ray when its on the same day he changed 20k sterling, which he cant remember doing, that because of parity at the time exactly equaled the 20k punt he lodged right after that is just beyond the pale. since it has to be one or the other theres 20k missing here!

also loved the bit that the money was meant to come from golf classics, despite the fact the first one wasnt untill five years later

ah , ya cant write this stuff.

El Stuntman

partholon wrote: »

but yeah, alleged digouts is the right phrase as it goes to the heart of the issue. if they dont exist then you have to ask where the money came from and that adds weight to the bung claim

a big tick

go to the top of the class

as a matter of interest, is there a definitive list anywhere of the politicans that Owen O'Callaghan did provide 'donations' to, either directly or via his bagman, the infamous Mr Dunlop? Would be interested in seeing this....

Seth Brundle

Hmmm

Ahern 'needs more time' to explain evidence

Lawyers for Taoiseach Bertie Ahern have said he needs more time to explain an apparent conflict of evidence concerning lodgements to his Building Society account.

Mr Ahern said the lodgements to the Irish Permanent Building Society account in 1994 came from salary payments.

However a former manager for the building society has said he believes that over £15,500 came from sterling cash conversions.

Colm Ó hOisín SC for the Taoiseach said they had only received documentation recently and their client had been out of the country.

He said the Taoiseach will be replying to the tribunal in due course.

Former Irish Permanent manager Blair Hughes said he cannot offer any other explanation for the lodgements.

Mr Hughes was shown documentation surrounding the cash lodgements of odd sum amounts at the Drumcondra branch of the Irish Permanent between March and October 1994.

Over £11,500 was lodged to Bertie Ahern's account and more than £2,000 each to the accounts of his daughters Cecelia and Georgina.

Mr Hughes accepted that each lodgement was preceded by a sterling purchase by the branch and he said this facility would only be given to account holders.

He could not offer any other explanation for the lodgements, apart from them being being the result of sterling conversions.

The tribunal heard most of the lodgements were made by Mr Ahern's former constituency secretary Grainne Carruth, who is due to give evidence this afternoon.

Another lodgement of a cheque for an uneven sum of just over £10,000 was made in April 1995 by current TD Cyprian Brady who was then running Mr Ahern's office at St Lukes.

LostinBlanch

Should be interesting tomorrow as Grainne Carruth denied ever handling sterling despite Blair Hughes saying she did. She has to give evidence tomorrow morning and Mahon is supposed to have told her to go home and consult with her lawyers and make sure that she's correct.

This smacks of another Frank Dunlop scenario. If she crumbles then I think Bertie is screwed.

partholon

her testimony could end this if she does a dunlop. i felt a tad sorry for her today as its obvious shes being used by bertie and co but she's caught in a bind now as we have the unprecedant situation of a financial institution and its manager actually having both relcolection and documentory proof of what went on.

i know its been said ALOT but this could be it for bert. it certainly blows a big whole in the "its me wages cheques that funded dat" story. and that could be perjury. case closed.

all depends how graine does tomorrow

Akrasia

partholon wrote: »

her testimony could end this if she does a dunlop. i felt a tad sorry for her today as its obvious shes being used by bertie and co but she's caught in a bind now as we have the unprecedant situation of a financial institution and its manager actually having both relcolection and documentory proof of what went on.

i know its been said ALOT but this could be it for bert. it certainly blows a big whole in the "its me wages cheques that funded dat" story. and that could be perjury. case closed.

all depends how graine does tomorrow

I think this trip to the credit union was Ahern being too smart for his own good.

One wonders how many other accounts there are scattered around the place.
This time last year the conversation piece was 'how could the minister for finance not have a bank account'
Now we know he had money 'resting' in secret accounts all over the place.

There is new information about questionable lodgements in accounts opened in his daughters names too. He thought he was so smart. (or are we not supposed to bring his family into it? Bertie's 'Personal finances' my ass

El Stuntman

Carruth has admitted they were Sterling lodgements

now where the HELL did they come from Bertie?

get the CAB in and stop this farce and, for the sake of the country, Mr Cowen, pull the plug on this shameful charade - we are a laughing stock in the eyes of the world

I feel sick listening to this :mad:

DancesWithChimp

From: http://www.examiner.ie/irishexaminer/pages/story.aspx-qqqg=ireland-qqqm=ireland-qqqa=ireland-qqqid=58258-qqqx=1.asp

"Mr Hughes, who managed the Drumcondra branch of the Irish Permanent Building Society (IPBS) between 1993 and early January 1997, said according to the documentation he would say that sterling was exchanged for Irish currency and then lodged to the three Aherns’ accounts.

Asked if there could be any other explanation, Mr Hughes replied: “Not that I can think of.”

Judge Mahon said Mr Ahern’s evidence to date was that the payments the tribunal was examining were his salary cheques.

Colm Ó hOisín SC for the Taoiseach said they had received a lot of documentation and needed more time to explain the lodgments."


In other words: they need more time to come up with more BS stories that can neither be verified nor disproven...except by common sense of course.

DancesWithChimp

From: http://www.independent.ie/national-news/ahern-aide-backtracks-on-evidence-to-tribunal-1321984.html

"Earlier, Blair Hughes, manager of the building society, said he recalled Ms Carruth making sterling conversions and subsequent lodgements at his branch.

He also said that he always understood the mysterious B/T account -- also the recipient of sterling - was a "Bertie and Tim" account."

So the manager of the Bank where the B/T account resides always understood the B/T account to be a "Bertie and Tim" account.

At this stage, unless Bertie manages to shut down the Tribunal, he's very likely going to be done for perjury, not to mention all of the money he is likely going to owe to the Revenue, if not the CAB itself.

How long can the voluntarily blind FF supporters put up with this charade!??

El Stuntman

DancesWithChimp wrote: »

Colm Ó hOisín SC for the Taoiseach said they had received a lot of documentation and needed more time to explain the lodgments."

In other words: they need more time to come up with more BS stories that can neither be verified nor disproven...except by common sense of course.

the good barrister must be having some interesting chinwags with his esteemed client behind the scenes :rolleyes:

speaking of which: given that Bertie is clearly obstructiung the Tribunal's work, presumably he'll be liable for all of his own legal costs?

hoist by his own petard, a fitting end given that he clearly loves money so much

DancesWithChimp

http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0320/mahon.html

Carruth does accept that "on the balance of probability" that the lodgements in question were indeed sterling, however she is still claiming to have no recollection of making the lodgements.

So she is still towing that grey line of, yes they were sterling, but I am not definitively admitting that I lodged them.

I guess she has to stick with her original line given that the tribunal lawer reminded her that to lie to or obstruct the tribunal is an offence punishable with a fine of up to €300,000 or two years imprisonment.

Somehow, I think the Tribunal Judges will be very easily able to make up their own mind about what happened.

mike65

She is the Weakest Link. As things stand she could be open to prosecution for purgury, by the time the Tribunal resumes on April 1st (!) she will be ready to spill.

Mike.

DancesWithChimp

But remember if Ms. Carruth falls...then surely she takes Bertie with her.

She is breaking down crying at the Tribunal today and yesterday under questioning telling them that she "wants to go home".

She likely knows that if she answers truthfully then she is essentially giving up Ahern...and she seems to be deathly terrified of doing so.

But the facts are FACTS and the Tribunal has presented them to her making them impossible to refute so she falls back on "I accept that but don't recall".

In doing so she has pretty much given up Ahern...he's in a real fix now.
He now has to come back to the Tribunal and explain why he failed to tell the Tribunal the truth about sterling lodgements, which he claimed were his salary cheques, to his account and also issues surrounding the "Bertie and Tim" account.

Unless he was also secretly employed by Her Majesty's Government then it must be that somebody else over in Her Majesty's realm was very fond of our Minister for Justice and decided to shower him in tens of thousands of sterling!

I for one am dying to hear what the latest yarn is!

LostinBlanch

Nice quote at the end of an article in the independent today.

It is now possible to postulate something from the "Bertie and Tim" account, and the "Des and Tim" accounts we have heard about.

The evidence suggests the existence beyond these shores of a bank account for Bertie's benefit, perhaps called the "Bertie and Michael" (B/M) account, perhaps not. But lots and lots of sterling was coming in, and the Taoiseach can't explain any of it.

He has repeatedly said that he never operated a foreign bank account. Mind you, Ray Burke, promoted Minister of Foreign Affairs by Bertie, said the same, as did Michael Lowry.

The Irish Independent has been privately been told that the circulation of the new documents this month, showing £15,000 conversions and lodgments for Bertie and his family at the Irish Permanent Building Society, caused consternation within senior 'Drumcondra mafia.'

In particular because they didn't know how to explain it in any way that the public would buy. Correct analysis, boys.

I wonder which FF minister is going to come out and attack the tribunal over the next week or so? :rolleyes:

redspider

> we are a laughing stock in the eyes of the world

No, its the people that voted FF in the last election that should be the laughing stock of all people in Ireland. Lets forget about what the outside world thinks, its what we think here that counts.

The problem is, those that did vote FF are a significant minority and together with other parties, including the 'turncoat' Green Party, allowed the creation of the current government, a contuation of the last 2.

The fact is it is obvious to the dogs on the street that Bertie was corrupt and accepted money that he shouldnt have, but it remains to be seen if the politicians and people will react. To date, they havent.

Shame on them. But do they realise? Probably not.

Little wonder people aren't bothering to vote. But they should. We get the government and leadership that we vote for and condone. The Mahon tribunal is but a measure of Ireland and Irish Society. The Irish Permanent chap should have gone to CAB back in 1993/1994. Bertie should never have become a Taoiseach, if our systems were proper. They arent, and crooks are running the country. end of.

Redspider

Seth Brundle

LostinBlanch wrote: »

I wonder which FF minister is going to come out and attack the tribunal over the next week or so? :rolleyes:

Hopefully Berties little chum Eoghan Harris* will come out against the biased media and the agenda motivated tribunal. It would make for even more hilarity.



* in case someone tries to point out that he is neither FF nor a minister, I know!

mike65

Your wish was granted! Checkout www.todayfm.com and click the Last Word link for previous shows in a couple of hours.

Meanwhile a list of payments in 1993-95

Bank loan, £19,115.97, December 23, 1993
£22,500, December 30, 1993 (The supposed first digout)
£5,000, January 31, 1994
£4,119.59, March 9, 1994 (Sterling)
£1,028.40, March 9, 1994 (Sterling)
£1,028.40, March 9, 1994 (Sterling)
£7,000, March 23, 1994
£30,000, April 25, 1994
£3,518.99, May 9, 1994 (Sterling)
£1,000, May 9, 1994 (Sterling)
£1,000, May 9, 1994 (Sterling)
£50.63, May 10, 1994 (Sterling)
£1,434.15, May 23, 1994
£20,000, August 8, 1994
£24,838.49, October 11, 1994 (This is when he apparently needed a digout to buy a house) (Sterling)
£3,970.19, October 28, 1994 (Sterling)
£28,772.90, December 5, 1994 (US Dollars)
£50,000, December 5, 1994 (Probably a relodgment)
£10,060.71, April 12, 1995
£11,743.74, June 22, 1995 (Sterling)
£19,142.92, December 1, 1995 (Sterling)
£12,000, December 21, 1995

from the IT

RÁINNE CARRUTH, former secretary to Taoiseach Bertie Ahern, has denied she carried out sterling transactions on behalf of Mr Ahern, but accepts that previous evidence she gave to the tribunal was incorrect.

An occasionally tearful Ms Carruth, who worked at Mr Ahern’s constituency office St Luke’s from 1987 to 1999, was questioned about four lodgements to Mr Ahern’s account in the Irish Permanent Building Society.

She was also asked about lodgements to the accounts of Mr Ahern’s daughters. The lodgements totalled more than IR£15,500 and appeared to emanate from sterling conversions.

One lodgement of IR£4,119.59, was made on March 9th, 1994, after £4,000 stg was converted to Irish pounds, producing IR£4,119.59. Two lodgements of more than IR£1,028 each were also made to the accounts of Mr Ahern’s daughters, Cecelia and Georgina. They appeared to emanate from £1,000 stg conversions, the tribunal was told.

Ms Carruth’s name and address were on the lodgement slips for the transactions. Other lodgements made on May 9th and October 28th and which coincided with sterling transactions were also examined.

Ms Carruth initially denied that she had made any of the lodgements. However, after questioning from the three tribunal judges, she conceded she must have done, since her name was on the documents. However, when asked about the sterling conversions, she repeatedly said she had no recollection of ever dealing with sterling.

Commenting on the March 9th transactions, Judge Mary Faherty said that according to Ms Carruth’s evidence, it appeared that somebody presented sterling to the bank, then Ms Carruth lodged Irish.

“They then step out, it would appear from the documentation, and you step in again,” the judge said. She said the process would then be repeated.

“It seems completely illogical that that sequence of events could have happened on that day, Ms Carruth,” the judge said.

“I accept that, thank you, judge,” Ms Carruth responded.

Judge Alan Mahon said it was unlikely that Ms Carruth would have lodged two exact sums of IR£1,028 on March 9th to Mr Ahern’s daughters’ accounts.

“It seems a strange amount, Judge,” Ms Carruth said.

Judge Gerald Keyes said all they wanted was the truth.

Counsel for the tribunal, Des O’Neill SC, said that it would follow that someone gave Ms Carruth £6,000 stg on March 9th and told her to lodge it to the three accounts.

“That’s the only logical sequence that can happen, isn’t that right?” Mr O’Neill asked.

“I have no recollection of sterling ever being in my hands,” Ms Carruth insisted. She accepted that evidence she had given to the tribunal on a previous occasion was incorrect. She had stated the only transactions she carried out for Mr Ahern were to change his salary cheques for him and lodge money to his daughters’ accounts.

Mr O’Neill said Ms Carruth responds “no” to every question until such time that “incontrovertible” evidence was put to her, and then she said she couldn’t recollect. He said that at the time, she was earning IR£66 a week and could not possibly forget dealing with large amounts of cash.

He asked Ms Carruth if she was surprised when documents came out to her from the tribunal showing she had made large cash lodgements to Mr Ahern’s account.

“I shook for two hours,” Ms Carruth said. She acknowledged that anything she was asked to do in banking terms “was for Bertie”.

Mike.

guinnessdrinker

kbannon wrote: »

Hopefully Berties little chum Eoghan Harris* will come out against the biased media and the agenda motivated tribunal. It would make for even more hilarity.



* in case someone tries to point out that he is neither FF nor a minister, I know!

He was on Today FM this evening. How can anyone take him serioulsy anymore?

LostinBlanch

DancesWithChimp wrote: »

She likely knows that if she answers truthfully then she is essentially giving up Ahern...and she seems to be deathly terrified of doing so.

I have been wondering about this and what they could have on her? If anything. Then again maybe we're doing her a disservice and she actually believed she wasn't lodging sterling / changing sterling into punts and lodging that. Maybe she's intensely loyal to Bertie and doesn't want to see him brought to book / done down - delete as appropriate. Mind you that's all musing on my part.

One thing that I did find strange though were the reports of her wages at the time, £67 a week in 1994. That seems to be a pitifully small amount for someone in a ministers office to be paid. It's only about £4.50 per week more than the 1995 long term unemployment assistance rate of £62.50 as outlined in the Combat Poverty Agency budget submission for 1995 Don't ministers get an allowance for employing staff in their constituency offices?

Seth Brundle

guinnessdrinker wrote: »

He was on Today FM this evening. How can anyone take him serioulsy anymore?

Who? Harris?
When was he ever taken seriously?

LostinBlanch

mike65 wrote: »

Meanwhile a list of payments in 1993-95

Bank loan, £19,115.97, December 23, 1993
£22,500, December 30, 1993 (The supposed first digout)
£5,000, January 31, 1994
£4,119.59, March 9, 1994 (Sterling)
£1,028.40, March 9, 1994 (Sterling)
£1,028.40, March 9, 1994 (Sterling)
£7,000, March 23, 1994
£30,000, April 25, 1994
£3,518.99, May 9, 1994 (Sterling)
£1,000, May 9, 1994 (Sterling)
£1,000, May 9, 1994 (Sterling)
£50.63, May 10, 1994 (Sterling)
£1,434.15, May 23, 1994
£20,000, August 8, 1994
£24,838.49, October 11, 1994 (This is when he apparently needed a digout to buy a house) (Sterling)
£3,970.19, October 28, 1994 (Sterling)
£28,772.90, December 5, 1994 (US Dollars)
£50,000, December 5, 1994 (Probably a relodgment)
£10,060.71, April 12, 1995
£11,743.74, June 22, 1995 (Sterling)
£19,142.92, December 1, 1995 (Sterling)
£12,000, December 21, 1995

Jaysus Mike, I never realised that was the amount £252,209.11 without the bank loan, £277,325.08 with it. All in the space of two years! What exactly was his ministerial wage at the time?

Edit: I suppose some investigative journalist(s) might take a look at various decisions made by Bertie at the time and correlate them against the payments listed above just to allay any concerns that the cynics amongst us might have. Who knows it might even make some good headlines for FF. You know something along the lines of See we told you so!

juuge

The one point that must not be overlooked in all of this is that no matter what happens in fianna fail, the Party comes first.
This was recently confirmed on RTE by the gutless Mary O Rourke (remember how CJ treated her brother) when she publicly admitted that on a recent vote on autism she voted against her conscience and sided with the fianna fail party line. So it's the good of the party first and the good of the country second. Look how bertie shafted 'little dick' roche and he still defends the incredible. That's what we are dealing with - Say no more !

HydeRoad

I used to think that anyone from Sinn Féin spoke in public like someone had a gun stuck in their lower back, hidden from view, but Fianna Fáil are becoming very much of this vein, too!

Jonny Arson

partholon wrote: »

her testimony could end this if she does a dunlop. i felt a tad sorry for her today as its obvious shes being used by bertie and co but she's caught in a bind now as we have the unprecedant situation of a financial institution and its manager actually having both relcolection and documentory proof of what went on.

i dont feel an ounce of sympathy or compassion for anyone who possibly may be committing perjury especially after being warned of the consequences while taking the stand. she was shown the documents before she took the stand, no sympathy whatsoever. honestly, how can someone who was paid £60-odd a week, who would rarely handle large sums of money have no recollection whatsoever of lodging such large sums. the dog on the street knows what Mrs. Carruth has been up to on the stand just like Bertie, Tim Collins, Celia Larkin and whip around boys before her....

guinnessdrinker wrote: »

He was on Today FM this evening. How can anyone take him serioulsy anymore?

what!? people take Eoghan Harris seriously???

anyway here is Eoghan on Today FM! - http://www.radioireland.ie/lastword/2032008-17.wmv

get your popcorn ready, he does what he does best, doesn't answer any questions asked, rambles on about James Reilly's properties, Fine Gael, then mysteriously gets cut off (the best bit! ), rambles on about election warchests, more evil Fine Gael again, evil Tribunal, more comedy over poor Mrs. Carruth, probably some more Fine Gael and over!

Harris should be a stand-up, he is gold :pac: