The Mahon Tribunal-discussion (please read this threads first post before replying)

mike65

I'm listening to the Senator right now, comical posturing. I used to take him seriously on matters like the Provos but his defence of Ahern is beyond the joke.

Mike.

Seth Brundle

That interview was funny!

Akrasia

kbannon wrote: »

That interview was funny!

In that interview it was mentioned that Ahern said he used the 'B/T' account to lodge his salary.

Now if that is true (and its almost certainly not), then why didn't he reveal the account all the way back last year when people were asking him how he cashed his pay cheques? (At the time he mumbled something about fagans... if he was using a building society account for that purpose and it was a legitimate account than why wouldn't he have mentioned it in 2006 or 2007)

Ahern is comprehensively caught.

He should resign immediately, and everyone who still comes to his defence should be ashamed of themselves.

mike65

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/amid-the-sobbing-aherns-lies-exposed-for-all-to-see-1324059.html#comments

Ahern to sue Indo? I will not be holding my breath

Mike.

guinnessdrinker

Jonny Arson wrote: »

i dont feel an ounce of sympathy or compassion for anyone who possibly may be committing perjury especially after being warned of the consequences while taking the stand. she was shown the documents before she took the stand, no sympathy whatsoever. honestly, how can someone who was paid £60-odd a week, who would rarely handle large sums of money have no recollection whatsoever of lodging such large sums. the dog on the street knows what Mrs. Carruth has been up to on the stand just like Bertie, Tim Collins, Celia Larkin and whip around boys before her....

I still felt sorry for her. To me she seems to have been abandoned by Ahern and co. yet I think she still feels some kind of loyalty towards them. Anyway I don't like seeing housewifes being humiliated in public and I was angry with Ahern for this yesterday. He was the one that got her mixed up in all of this in the first place and now where is he? (really where is he? is he still in the USA or what?).

When can we expect to hear from him? Or from some of his ministers that constantly back him and attack the tribunal. When can we hear from the Greens? The Greens before the election were on their high horse going on about better ethics and removing the sleaze in Irish politics and "green politics is clean politics" etc. But now we have silence coming from the Greens, why?

Now I would never expect any of the two PD TD's to come out against FF but I wonder what McDowall would have to say for himself if he was still in the Dail. He usually had something to say although his stunt of finding out the whole story from Ahern just before the last election backfired on him. Watchdogs of FF and all that. Why should we need a watchdog of FF anyway? Is this the stage we are at in life where we need another party in government to watch over FF at all times.

I doubt I will ever vote FF in the future, not even give them a preference and I would say the same thing for the Greens and PD's

El Stuntman

I asked a question yesterday but didn't get an answer; maybe someone more legally aware than I could answer it

If An Taoiseach is found not to have co-operated with the work of the Tribunal, is he liable for all his own legal costs? I doubt Maguire and o Hoisin come cheap...

if the answer is 'yes', then I actually think that this would be the most fitting end of all - a greedy and corrupt man financially ruined by his own chicanery.

anyone know?

DancesWithChimp

According to banking documentation Bertie Ahern had more than £70,000 stg lodged to his accounts within a period of less than 2 years (that we know about so far)

This is not to mention the likely $45,000, which Bertie claims was in fact sterling (even though that is supported by no actual facts)

But lets say it was sterling circa £30,000 as he claims then that brings his total sterling lodgements to £100,000

That's just the sterling!

oscarBravo

I don't recall any of the moderators stating that the rules had been changed. Until you hear otherwise, the rules as clearly set out still apply.

I'm not going to claim I believe any of Bertie's several versions of events, but I'm still going to enforce the rules; in the same way as I'll infract or ban a poster who calls another poster a muppet - even if he is a muppet.

DancesWithChimp

I assume it is ok to post this article, for all to see, where the Irish Independent uses the "L" word unequivocally in relation to Bertie's testimony?

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/amid-the-sobbing-aherns-lies-exposed-for-all-to-see-1324059.html

mike65

LostinBlanch wrote: »

Jaysus Mike, I never realised that was the amount £252,209.11 without the bank loan, £277,325.08 with it. All in the space of two years! What exactly was his ministerial wage at the time?

£68,000.

Mike.

guinnessdrinker

This is a qoute from the end of the Irish Indendants article that was previoulsy posted.

Bertie lied because the Irish Permanent Building Society once told Tim Collins that it didn't have records going back that far.

Turns out that they did. The rotten edifice collapses.

What I would like to know is, can anyone tell me when the Irish Permanent told this to Tim Collins or has it already been covered in evidence in the tribunal?

LostinBlanch

mike65 wrote: »

£68,000.

Mike.

Mike you had the heart crossways on me for a second! I thought that I had added up the total so badly that I was out by about £130K. :eek: Then I realised that that's what his ministerial wage was. Phew. I guess you know now why I'll never make an accountant

DancesWithChimp

guinnessdrinker wrote: »

This is a qoute from the end of the Irish Indendants article that was previoulsy posted.



What I would like to know is, can anyone tell me when the Irish Permanent told this to Tim Collins or has it already been covered in evidence in the tribunal?

Yes, it was covered in evidence.
Tim Collins failed to inform the Tribunal about the existence of the B/T account even though he was obliged to by and Order for Discovery.
The Tribunal only found out about the account because they traced a £5,000 cheque from Davy Stockbrokers to Bertie Ahern, which ended up getting logged into the "Bertie and Tim" account.

When asked why he did not inform the Tribunal about the B and T account, Tim Collins claimed that the Irish Permanent records did not go back far enough for them to be able to provide details of the account.

So he conveniently didn't mention the account at all in his discoveries.
Neither did Bertie.

So the theory is: since Bertie and Tim believed that the Irish Permanent no longer had records for that period they felt they were safe in not disclosing or drawing attention to some of the most damning evidence against Bertie.

It was a dangerous gamble that Bertie seems not to have won!

Seth Brundle

There is an interesting article in the current Phoenix regarding Celia's house.
Bertie claimed that the house had to be purchased because Celia's aunts were about to be evicted (and/or forced to share the house with others).
However, under the Landlord & Tenant (Amendment) Act 1980 the aunts would have been entieled to free legal aid and would have been fully entitled to claim and secure a renewable long occupancy lease of up to 35 years as they were living there longer than the 20 year threshold required for this (they were there for 35 years according to Bertie).

Furthermore, given that Bertie was supposedly unaware of the £30K loan until after it was sanctioned by the trustees in charge of the B/T a/c, how did Celia manage to persuade "the lads" to loan her the money given that they "commonly and cordially loathed" her?

DancesWithChimp

Forget all the waffly detail, the crux of the matter is that both Bertie Ahern and Celia Larkin in the mid 90's were given £30,000 each towards the financing of homes which they now both own respectively in their own names.

Funny that!

partholon

oh your gonna love this.

according to todays (sat 22nd march) indo front page berts going to say the reason he was lodgeing massive amounts of sterling to his account is because he changed his wages cheque into sterling and THEN lodged it to his account.



we're fcuking well beyond unbelievable now and are sailing straight into "santa changed me cheques for me!" territory. which bring up another point.

if i actually believed this codswollop and bert DID change his wages into sterling before lodging it to his account AFTER changing it back again. where did he cash the original cheques? he didnt do it a the permo!

LostinBlanch

I know I just saw that. Bloody hell, this has gone past surreal.

Even Flann O'Bren on acid wouldn't be able to come up with something like this!

I'm looking forward to the next installment.

DancesWithChimp

The relodging of converted money is an excuse he has used on a number of occasions before.

He claims he converted 30,000 of the 50,000 from Celia Larkin's account into Sterling to give to Wall, but then decided not to do that, but to convert it back to punts and relodge it to his account as 20,000 in one month and 10,000 a few months later.
Why it was all not relodged at the same time he has no explanation for. We just have to accept that is how he did things.

Tim Collins also used the relodging excuse to explain lodgements to the B and T account. 20,000 taken out to give to Joe Burke...no idea if Burke got the money or not....but a 20,000 lodgement then months later is supposedly this 20,000 going back into the account.
This, the Tribunal has also shown through documentary evidence to be the likely result of a sterling conversion.
Again, the witness cannot explain why this is.

The whole thing is beyond farcical at this point.

But don't forget, Bertie has had one tactic that he has used since the beginning of the Tribunal that has served him so far, and he will continue to use it until the end.

And that tactic, IMO, is to come up with stories that can neither be verified nor disproved.
Doing so means the public are continually expected to simply take his word for it until the Judges rule.

So, while the notion of him converting his paycheques to sterling cash, then having that cash re-converted to punts and lodged, is a bizarre financial transaction much like the rest of his financial dealing around the suspect lodgements...if the story cannot be disproved then it just lands in with all the rest of the bizarre but non-disprovable stories.

I am of the opinion that the Mahon Judges don't believe and have never believed much of the yarn being spun by Ahern and his human shields, as neither do most reasonably intelligent people I imagine...but once more, I guess we just have to wait and see.

LostinBlanch

Now it looks like FG want to see if the larceny act can be used against Bertie.

Mr Varadkar raised the issue with Justice Minister Brian Lenihan last week. Without naming the Taoiseach, Mr Varadkar asked Mr Lenihan if the offence of fraudulent conversion still existed, and whether it “would apply to a person who, as a member of a club or society having had funds entrusted to them for the club or society, converted it to their own use”.

Mr Lenihan said the Larceny Acts of 1916 and 1990 had been repealed by the Criminal Justice (Theft and Fraud Offences) Act 2001 — several years after the donations to Mr Ahern.

The latter act replaced the offence of fraudulent conversion with the offence of theft.

Hmmmm

DancesWithChimp

FG are idiots.

They spent so much time going after Ahern, very ineffectively, while there were other more important matters that they could have been focusing on, then had kind of given up as they'd gotten nowhere with Ahern, and now that the most damning evidence to come from the tribunal has emerged the best they can come up with is a law from 1916?

Jesus Christ are they useless!

What FG should be doing is focusing on how Ahern hung that poor secretary of his out to dry, and the damning revelations concering the "Bertie and Tim" account as well as his further Sterling lodgements, which he failed to tell the Tribunal, and likely the Revenue about.

But alas, FG are idiots.

Mr.Micro

I do agree with DancesWithChimp, the opposition appear to be totally ineffectual in their actions with regard to any revelations from the Mahon Tribunal. Its almost like FG and Labour are going through the motions that are expected and required from Government opposition parties, in this case limp and inadequate. I think it says a lot about the Irish Political psyche that no matter what is revealed by the tribunal its never a surprise, almost what is expected of our politicians and we would be disappointed otherwise.

mike65

FG are scared to death esp the leader who's name escapes me. Ah yes Enda Kenny (really did have to think for a moment!). That said it probably Brian Cowen who they should have in thier sights, he is the next FF leader they have to defeat after all.

Mike.

mike65

I read about that. Handy.

Mike.

Mr.Micro

I know this was mentioned earlier but if Mr. Ahern is going to ply the story that some of his salary was paid to him in sterling and then he had it reconverted to punts to put in Building society accounts? If this is the case one would wonder at the competence of a man who appears make the simplest thing complicated, in this case a money transaction. If such an excuse is proffered to the tribunal then it will make Mr.Ahern look idiotic IMO. Why on earth would one have part of a salary paid in Stg , then pay to have it reconverted back to Punts, when one intended to pay it into Building society accounts in Punts in the first place. Now that if true of course is surely Irish with a capital I.


http://www.independent.ie/national-news/ahern-to-claim-salary-converted-into-sterling-1324922.html

Traumadoc

I thought he was paid in punts ( a govt. cheque) which was supposidly converted to sterling and then back to punts .

mike65

Bertie Ahern Forex trader. Its getting very silly if this is a line of defence, every time your change currency the bank records the transaction (and you get whacked for a commission).

Mike.

A Dub in Glasgo

Don't you know it as the 'in thing' in the early '90s to get paid in punts then spend money converting it to sterling for no reason and then spend money converting it back to punts. Everyone around our way was doing it

El Stuntman

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Don't you know it as the 'in thing' in the early '90s to get paid in punts then spend money converting it to sterling for no reason and then spend money converting it back to punts. Everyone around our way was doing it

lol

we are truly entering 'the dog ate my homework' territory here

tech77

El Stuntman wrote: »

lol we are truly entering 'the dog ate my homework' territory here

I'd say we've been in "dog ate my homework" territory for the past year.
It's more "the moon is made of cheese" territory at this stage tbh.
Despicable as he is though, you gotta stand in awe of his brass neck.

BTW "Despicable" isn't bannable is it- I despise the guy anyway.

mike65

Noel Ahern was just on Newstalk making a show of himself (only he thought he was being intelligent).

Mike.