Dublin denies racist problem as blacks struggle to find school places

darkman2

Dublin denies racist problem as blacks struggle to find school places


SHAWN POGATCHNIK

CHILDREN of African immigrants will attend an all-black school because they have failed to receive places in Ireland's overloaded education system.

Mary Hanafin, the education minister, yesterday said the problems in the Dublin suburb of Balbriggan reflected bad planning amid rapid population growth, not racist attitudes at existing schools.
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But local teachers said they were shocked to see that, when they called a meeting over the weekend for parents struggling to find a school place for their children, almost everyone who turned up was black.

"That overwhelmed me. I just find it extremely concerning," said Gerard Kelly, the principal of a school with a mixture of black and white students in the nearby town of Swords.

Ms Hanafin said: "Just because the child is black, doesn't mean they're not Irish. So it might be a skin-colour issue, but it's not necessarily a race issue."

She said the schools were doing their best and that the government hoped to have a new, non-denominational school up and running in Balbriggan by the end of the month.

The parents at Saturday's meeting said they had tried to get their children into local schools, but were told that all places had to be reserved by February. Almost all of the children are Irish-born and, therefore, Irish citizens.

Some questioned why white families who had moved this year into the town had overcome the registration deadlines to get their children into schools.

Some also complained that the school system discriminated against them on religious grounds. About 98 per cent of schools are run by the Roman Catholic Church, and the law permits it to discriminate on whether or not a prospective student has a certificate confirming they were baptised into the faith. Some of the African applicants were Muslim, Protestant or of no religious creed.

Over 25,000 Africans have settled in Ireland since the mid-1990s. Most arrived as asylum seekers and many took advantage of a law - unique in Europe - granting citizenship to parents of any Irish-born child. The law was tightened in 2004.

Thoughts? Have we to sort out the schools or is it time to sort out the immigration system? I think we have problems coming down the line tbh which even the most politically correct cannot ignore.

DarkJager

Its time to sort out the immigration system. People can't just come into this country and expect services like education to just bow to them or their kids. This isn't racism, its just the immigrants screaming for the race card again when things don't go their way.

Karoma

Ms Hanafin said: "Just because the child is black, doesn't mean they're not Irish. So it might be a skin-colour issue, but it's not necessarily a race issue."

See?! Not racist.


"Time to sort out the immigration system" or time to sort out the overcrowded, Catholic-controlled education system?

dodgyme

need to sort out immigration system NOW

Slow Motion

DarkJager wrote:

Its time to sort out the immigration system. People can't just come into this country and expect services like education to just bow to them or their kids. This isn't racism, its just the immigrants screaming for the race card again when things don't go their way.

I agree, it's just another example of the Govt. deciding to do something and not think through the ramifications ! Ah sure it'll be alright ! No ! It won't unless you do something, coloured kids can't get places ! Change that to kids can't get places ! Same as people can't get hospital beds ! Criminals can't get jail cells ! Judges can't get arrested for kiddie porn ! Victims can't get justice ! Single fathers can't get access to their kids ! Colour is irrellevant (sp?) ! Idiots in charge is relevant !

Dyr

Even if these poor kids get to hop skip ahead of the indigenous kids in the massive waiting lists for school places just because they is black, they'll STILL be expected to learn irish!! Why its racisms i tells ya!!


Cry me a f****ng river, and when yiz do then build a boat and paddle up it back to whatever other EU country yis snuck in from, yee shower of goldbricking chancers.

nikolaitr

This is nothing new. If anyone can remember, there was a news item last year I believe about parents lining up over night outside schools to get place(I believe the school was in swords).

What is happening now is that the media is trying to take on a new slant on this issue, that somehow its racism.


Its not, fact is children are losing out, both white and black, and to blame this on racism is sensationalist.


The media shouldn't be asking Mary Hanafin does she believe the Dept. of Ed. employs racist practices, but instead ask her, why she has allowed the Average students per class ratio to increase to almost 30 per class in certain schools?

seamus

DarkJager wrote:

This isn't racism, its just the immigrants screaming for the race card again when things don't go their way.

It's not necessarily the immigrants. A lot of the time you'll have over-zealous ultra-lefties doing it too. "Residents against Racism" often attach themselves to issues which aren't specifically anything to do with race and often end up with egg on their face when it turns out they were way off.
I also like this quote from Hanafin:

Ms Hanafin said: "Just because the child is black, doesn't mean they're not Irish. So it might be a skin-colour issue, but it's not necessarily a race issue."

Very clever. Don't allow people to bring skin colour in as an indicator of ethnicity/race. That only serves to divide the community along skin colour lines. I'm not an FF supporter, but I've always found Hanafin to be a clever politician.

This was discussed in a thread before. It's an infrastructural issue above anything else. With Ireland becoming less and less Catholic, this problem was going to raise its head sooner or later. It's the explosion in non-Catholic children/immigrants that has accelerated the process. It's not a racism issue.

mise_me_fein

I'm glad the government are taking tough measure on deporting people. We've enough foreign nationals here as it is. If you're in now, fine but it has to stop.

Regarding this issue, I'd say the black families just didn't realize how tough it is to get in and how early you have to reserve a place in some schools here.

Sam Vimes

seamus wrote:

It's not necessarily the immigrants. A lot of the time you'll have over-zealous ultra-lefties doing it too. "Residents against Racism" often attach themselves to issues which aren't specifically anything to do with race and often end up with egg on their face when it turns out they were way off.

yeah they piss me off. I remember one of them on the radio talking about the roma on the roundabout. She kept saying they were forced to live there and that in romania they'd been denied an education even though romania wouldn't have been allowed in the eu if they did that

arybvtcw0eolkf

Well we already had a 'Miss Afro-Galway' beauty pagent last year, next will be RTE Black-entertainment-TV, black schools and Green-Orange-Red-Black traffic lights aren't too far away

As a nation we've bent over and took it right up the arse off the crazy left for long enough now.

Wook

mise_me_fein wrote:

I'm glad the government are taking tough measure on deporting people. We've enough foreign nationals here as it is. If you're in now, fine but it has to stop.

Regarding this issue, I'd say the black families just didn't realize how tough it is to get in and how early you have to reserve a place in some schools here.

god, you serious...?
This country would be on their arses if it wasn't for all those foreign people serving you or taking care of you in healthcare/services.
cheap labor everywhere ! but this is not a post about racism i guess ?

Terry

Mairt wrote:

Well we already had a 'Miss Afro-Galway' beauty pagent last year, next will be RTE Black-entertainment-TV, black schools and Green-Orange-Red-Black traffic lights aren't too far away

As a nation we've bent over and took it right up the arse off the crazy left for long enough now.

Those 'black-only' things have always pissed me off.
Try holding a 'Caucausian only' pageant and see how far you get. The hippies will scream racism at that one, but have no problem with the black one.
Reeks of hypocricy.

As for the schools vs immigration things; both need to be sorted out.

OP, can you link to the article please?

Wook

Bambi wrote:

Cry me a f****ng river, and when yiz do then build a boat and paddle up it back to whatever other EU country yis snuck in from, yee shower of goldbricking chancers.

what ? 'gold bricking chancers'?

po0k

lolz@3rd-rate tinpot banana republic on the edge of western europe

Wook

DarkJager wrote:

Its time to sort out the immigration system. People can't just come into this country and expect services like education to just bow to them or their kids. This isn't racism, its just the immigrants screaming for the race card again when things don't go their way.

i dont think they want the schools to 'bow' to them, i think they just wanted to be treated fairly ? which the 'white' folks are not always doing it seems.

Some questioned why white families who had moved this year into the town had overcome the registration deadlines to get their children into schools.

Dyr

Wook wrote:

god, you serious...?
This country would be on their arses if it wasn't for all those foreign people serving you or taking care of you in healthcare/services.
cheap labor everywhere ! but this is not a post about racism i guess ?

Ah yes healthcare, where MSRA is rampant now that we have bargain basement foreign labour doing all the cleaning. Oh lucky, lucky us.

Oral Slang

This drives me mad.. Its happening to kids all over the country, not just coloured children.

My friend had a baby in May & registered her in her 2 local schools, one of which she's 60th on the waiting list, so really doubtful as to whether she'll get in when she's 5!!! Its ridiculous, but that's the situation.

The article says "Some questioned why white families who had moved this year into the town had overcome the registration deadlines to get their children into schools.", but I know plenty of people that when they have even an inkling of moving to an area in the future, they'll register their kids in the schools there, just in case, so that arguement is a load of crap.

As someone earlier said, I'd say the black families just didn't realise quite how early you have to register your children in schools. My mam runs a playschool and every year she has loads of "bumps" on her list for 3/4 years time.

humbert

Bambi wrote:

Ah yes healthcare, where MSRA is rampant now that we have bargain basement foreign labour doing all the cleaning. Oh lucky, lucky us.

I think that may be the dumbest thing I've ever read here.

gerky

humbert wrote:

I think that may be the dumbest thing I've ever read here.

Agreed

gerky

Why do you assume that the black family's would be to stupid to book in advance.
This isn't so much a race issue as a religious one the church has said to church run schools to give catholic family's preference which is discrimination.
And some family are feeling forced to change religion.
Most of the so called foreign nationals your talking about are Irish children as they were born here.

AARRRGH

You can't just arrive in Ireland and expect a school place. There are already waiting lists for schools.

This is not about race, it's about schools being overcrowded and immigrants wanting everything now.

Rob_l

gerky wrote:

Why do you assume that the black family's would be to stupid to book in advance.
This isn't so much a race issue as a religious one the church has said to church run schools to give catholic family's preference which is discrimination.
And some family are feeling forced to change religion.
Most of the so called foreign nationals your talking about are Irish children as they were born here.

yes and as catholic schools should they not be allowed to admit catholic student over other religions?

whats next on your list then girl schools who choose female students over male!

gerky

Its not the church that pays for the running of them so no they shouldn't.

AARRRGH

Look, if I emigrated to Senegal I would not be bitching that I can't get my kid into the local over crowded school. I would have researched this **** before I left Ireland so I knew what I was getting myself into.

Coming to Ireland without knowing what the country is like is just retarded.

Rob_l

gerky wrote:

Its not the church that pays for the running of them so no they shouldn't.

so who pays for them?

kevmy

In fairness I don't think this can be turned into an anti-Catholic or anti-church thread. For years the church has maintained many if not most of the schools in Ireland. This saves the state millions in administration cost and provides a handy little not-our-fault excuse for the Department of Education. By and large the church has done a good job in the schools and generally lets in students of any or no creed. Certainly in my school there was a good percentage of Protestant kids etc. It's only when there are too little places and you have to reject some children that this comes into play - it's unfortunate but someones going to miss out whatever way its done.

This is an infrastructural issue brought on the government by its own incompetence. They knew or should have known this was coming for at least 3 years. If they wanted to avoid the catholic issue they could have taken up the church on its offer to give over school control to the Department of Education. Still though serves people right for voting these idiots into office again.

po0k

The Department of Education.

Generally it is the case that the Church built schools on its land. So they own the school. The teachers are civil servants. And there aren't enough quality teachers at both Primary and Secondary levels.

blorg

darkman2 wrote:

Some also complained that the school system discriminated against them on religious grounds. About 98 per cent of schools are run by the Roman Catholic Church, and the law permits it to discriminate on whether or not a prospective student has a certificate confirming they were baptised into the faith.

Personally I think this is fairly shocking.

Slow Motion

Black V white, Religious V non religious ! Are people here wilfully stupid ? It has nothing to do with this and everything to lack of a functioning department of education and an uncaring unsupportive government, without an ounce of social foresight to have seen this issue when it was pointed out that class numbers were on the rise, regardless of where the increased number of students is coming from. Anyone who says any different IMO is just deflecting the issue from sheer idiocy or some other agenda !

AARRRGH

But still... does anyone not find it strange?

If I moved to [insert random country] I wouldn't feel like I am owed anything. If I discovered [insert random public service] was totally dire, I would move home or to a different country instead of waving some kind of race flag...

I'm all on for immigration and people wanting to build a better life for themselves, but you are a guest in this country, and we owe you nothing, so stop bitching and complaining.

Like, the amount of non-Irish people living here who are always telling me how **** this country is - **** off home so. No one is forcing you to live here.

simu

dublindude wrote:

But still... does anyone not find it strange?

If I moved to [insert random country] I wouldn't feel like I am owed anything. If I discovered [insert random public service] was totally dire, I would move home or to a different country instead of waving some kind of race flag...

I'm all on for immigration and people wanting to build a better life for themselves, but you are a guest in this country, and we owe you nothing, so stop bitching and complaining.

Like, the amount of non-Irish people living here who are always telling me how **** this country is - **** off home so. No one is forcing you to live here.

Most of these kids have been here since birth and are Irish citizens so that means the govt had 4 or 5 years of forward planning time.

I don't think these parents are pulling a race card - they just want a school place for their kids. If they were to follow your advice there, they'd go "Oh well, no school place for our kids - lets just put up with it and keep them home."

seamus

dublindude wrote:

But still... does anyone not find it strange?

If I moved to [insert random country] I wouldn't feel like I am owed anything. If I discovered [insert random public service] was totally dire, I would move home or to a different country instead of waving some kind of race flag...

I'm all on for immigration and people wanting to build a better life for themselves, but you are a guest in this country, and we owe you nothing, so stop bitching and complaining.

Like, the amount of non-Irish people living here who are always telling me how **** this country is - **** off home so. No one is forcing you to live here.

As simu points out, many if not most of these kids are Irish. Even through-and-through, Nth generation Irish parents are finding it difficult to get places for their kids because they have decided to go a different direction with their religious beliefs.

This is not an immigration issue. Immigration has only accelerated the onset of the problem.

guy_awoke

Bottom line. Imo.

Do a large proportion of Irish people have a problem with other races/nationalities/skin tones - yes.

Is this unique in Europe - no.

Are the various Irish public/domestic services completely overwhelmed because of a lack of forward thinking/planning by senior government officials - yes.

Is there a pre-occupation with a vague Irish ethnic identity that continues to undermine the education system by such things as Irish being the official language of the country even though it's barely used - yes.

Should schools be entirely non-religious - that is up to the people who run the schools but state funding should be on the basis of educational merit and the number of pupils the school serves, amongst other things.

Is it trendy to be macho and ignorant about such matters in an effort to align oneself behind the status quo without being seen to be conservative when that's what you really are - totally.


What can be done - open, honest and transparent debates would be a good start.

Do Irish governments have a documented history of being open, honest and transparent - no.

How can that be changed - a good start would be well informed voting during the next general election.

mise_me_fein

Maybe it's about time the parents got to know how it works here.

I reckon the immigrants - especially those from Africa - don't mix in with us Irish and they don't really know the craic with the schools and the class sizes.

If this is the case, fcuk them. I'm sick of seeing groups of fat black women shouting at each other in native African languages.

Hopefully more of the kids will mix in.

I don't have a problem with anyone's colour or any culture but when you live be Ireland, I want you to live like an Irish person.

SingingCherry

dublindude wrote:

But still... does anyone not find it strange?

If I moved to [insert random country] I wouldn't feel like I am owed anything. If I discovered [insert random public service] was totally dire, I would move home or to a different country instead of waving some kind of race flag...

I'm all on for immigration and people wanting to build a better life for themselves, but you are a guest in this country, and we owe you nothing, so stop bitching and complaining.

Like, the amount of non-Irish people living here who are always telling me how **** this country is - **** off home so. No one is forcing you to live here.

First off, some of these kids you are talking about are Irish citizens, they are not guests. Second, some of these parents are were refugees and asylum seekers. They can't just **** off back home, as you so delicately put it. The government DOES owe their children, like they owe every other child in the country, an education. Yes, if I were to move to Galway or Limerick or Donegal I would expect my child to be educated.

Pompey Magnus

I say we should forget about deporting the immigrants, can we instead get rid of Residents against Racism and their ilk?

humanji

mise_me_fein wrote:

Maybe it's about time the parents got to know how it works here.

I reckon the immigrants - especially those from Africa - don't mix in with us Irish and they don't really know the craic with the schools and the class sizes.

If this is the case, fcuk them. I'm sick of seeing groups of fat black women shouting at each other in native African languages.

Hopefully more of the kids will mix in.

I don't have a problem with anyone's colour or any culture but when you live be Ireland, I want you to live like an Irish person.

You mean they should speak a foreign language like you?

DonJose

The government is to blame for this crisis. They gave out planning permission to build hundreds of thousands of new homes without any emphasis on building schools or services to to cater for the new populace.

They also to blame for the immigration crisis. There are absolutely no immigration controls in place in Ireland. There are tens of thousands of illegals in Ireland on expired student visas, don't even get me started on the Nigerians

mise_me_fein

guy_awoke wrote:

Bottom line. Imo.

Do a large proportion of Irish people have a problem with other races/nationalities/skin tones - yes.

Is this unique in Europe - no.

Are the various Irish public/domestic services completely overwhelmed because of a lack of forward thinking/planning by senior government officials - yes.

Is there a pre-occupation with a vague Irish ethnic identity that continues to undermine the education system by such things as Irish being the official language of the country even though it's barely used - yes.

Should schools be entirely non-religious - that is up to the people who run the schools but state funding should be on the basis of educational merit and the number of pupils the school serves, amongst other things.

Is it trendy to be macho and ignorant about such matters in an effort to align oneself behind the status quo without being seen to be conservative when that's what you really are - totally.


What can be done - open, honest and transparent debates would be a good start.

Do Irish governments have a documented history of being open, honest and transparent - no.

How can that be changed - a good start would be well informed voting during the next general election.

When you go to a post office to you tend to see mostly Africans and Romanians getting benefits - yes

Do you rarely see a black person working on a building site - yes

Do you reckon this would change with proper integration - yes

That macho crap is a load of bollox mate. We are polite people mostly and I have no issue's with anyone that's here getting on with life. What annoys most people I reckon is seeing people take advantage of what we have here and not making the effort to mix in.

Once we have black kids playing Gaelic football and hurling and going for pints with the folks after the game I think we'll be much better off. Sure they'd know all about the schools if they'd have the craic in the local.

mise_me_fein

humanji wrote:

You mean they should speak a foreign language like you?

Funny, but I think most people got what I was saying.

Spyral

I agree with the posts about an incompetent dept education and about putting boys in girls schools

Fact is the church payed for church schools. The government didn't so they can naff off simply.

AARRRGH

SingingCherry wrote:

The government DOES owe their children, like they owe every other child in the country, an education. Yes, if I were to move to Galway or Limerick or Donegal I would expect my child to be educated.

Yes, but the school problem has nothing to do with race, but rather with a lack of school places. Everyone in Ireland has the same problem. New houses built everywhere but no new schools.

My problem is with people who come here and then start complaining or waving the race card.

Flying

I believe we should put our own citizens first and everyone else secondary.

As for racism black people are by far some of the worst racists on the planet, I have severed with several african nations and they are worse than the Klan.


By the way when did all these "African" countries join the EU as they are here by criminal and illegal means or has Nigeria become a new member of the EU.

I am far from racist I am just pissed off with these people taking advantage and not intregating (Spelling) into society.

They would not bend over backwards to accomodate a White child in any of there countries so they should not expect any less here tbh

SingingCherry

dublindude wrote:

My problem is with people who come here and then start complaining or waving the race card.

I don't see this really as a race problem, as much as a Catholic Church and bad government planning problem but since they were the ones who are complaining and seem to be getting the media attention I focused on the people who you think should go home because they don't like the schooling system. If you are paying taxes here, you can complain, plain and simple.

I think the schools being able to reject non-catholic children is the problem, really. How can you place kids in a PUBLIC school system if the school feels, relgiously, the kids don't deserve a place? All Irish children aren't Catholic and this is like forcing the hands of parents to raise them as such so you can be sure to have a chance in getting a place in the few and far between schools.

mise_me_fein

Well, that's the way it is here....if they don't like it....they can go home.

Terry

Ok. I'm going to put this in large font so that you can all see it.

RACIST REMARK WILL GET YOU BANNED FOREVER.

humanji

mise_me_fein wrote:

Funny, but I think most people got what I was saying.

Oh, I got what you were saying. It doesn't stop it being ironic, though.

Nevyn

A black catholic child will for the most part due to the enrollement polciies of the
majority of primary schools being patroned by the catholic church get a place before a white non catholic child.

Boston

Thaedydal wrote:

A black catholic child will for the most part due to the enrollement polciies of the
majority of primary schools being patroned by the catholic church get a place before a white non catholic child.

The racist bastards.

Wook

mise_me_fein wrote:

Maybe it's about time the parents got to know how it works here.

I reckon the immigrants - especially those from Africa - don't mix in with us Irish and they don't really know the craic with the schools and the class sizes.

If this is the case, fcuk them. I'm sick of seeing groups of fat black women shouting at each other in native African languages.

Hopefully more of the kids will mix in.

I don't have a problem with anyone's colour or any culture but when you live be Ireland, I want you to live like an Irish person.

for somebody who doesnt mind colour and culture you seem to show your friendly irish nature very well.