Dublin denies racist problem as blacks struggle to find school places

jdivision

Rob_l wrote:

so who pays for them?

The State pays for the running of public religious schools (the vast majority of them are public) by paying the teachers wages.

jdivision

DonJose wrote:

LOL I for one would NEVER consider a Nigerian child born in Ireland as Irish, he might hold an Irish passport but he ain't Irish. If mother was Irish and father Nigerian then he'd be Irish/Nigerian. If my kids were born in Japan would they magically become Japanese

Do you support the national football, rugby or athletics teams by any hance. Just wondering because they're full of non-Irish people according to your good self.

dodgyme

jdivision wrote:

Do you support the national football, rugby or athletics teams by any hance. Just wondering because they're full of non-Irish people according to your good self.

stop trolling

Terry

dodgyme wrote:

stop trolling

Quiet you.
Jdivision has a valid point.

Wook

one thing im mising here, people talking about nigerians etc, but how many of them are there in ireland ? (ok legaly) ?anyone got a rough estimate on that ?

gurramok

jdivision wrote:

Do you support the national football, rugby or athletics teams by any hance. Just wondering because they're full of non-Irish people according to your good self.

Thats ethnic Irish what DonJose is saying, they had valid links through their parents to represent this country.
There are rules there to qualify to become naturalised/representative of the state either through blood links or become naturalised as any immigrant should do as per the law says.

The child born here rule which gave citizenship to that childs parents was thrown out by referenda with 80% in favour a while back.

Ekancone

DarkJager wrote:

Its time to sort out the immigration system. People can't just come into this country and expect services like education to just bow to them or their kids. This isn't racism, its just the immigrants screaming for the race card again when things don't go their way.

Ireland is notoriously difficult to get into today, its not like 5 years ago.

dodgyme

Terry wrote:

Quiet you.
Jdivision has a valid point.

Please explain it then

Terry

dodgyme wrote:

Please explain it then

Not that I have to, but jdivision was referring to the grandfather clause which allowed foreign players to participate in soccer games for the republic of Ireland.

jdivision

I was replying to a poster who says people born in Ireland aren't Irish. I'm saying they are. I'm also wondering if said person supports our national teams which are full of people who aren't Irish under his definition of what Irish is (second generation it seems, because the poster said both parents had to be Irish for the child to be Irish). Ronan O'Gara was born in the United States for example so he's not Irish, according to the poster's analogy.

dodgyme

jdivision wrote:

I was replying to a poster who says people born in Ireland aren't Irish. I'm saying they are. I'm also wondering if said person supports our national teams which are full of people who aren't Irish under his definition of what Irish is (second generation it seems, because the poster said both parents had to be Irish for the child to be Irish). Ronan O'Gara was born in the United States for example so he's not Irish, according to the poster's analogy.

Come on now - I think we all know what constitutes being irish. EVery country in the world is flexible insofar with dealing with players in relation to team sports. What we are talking about is not sport, its real life.

milmo

Sam & Dodgy, thanks for the backup.

It seems to me that the only voices I hear on this issue are RAR on one side or the flaming torch and pitch fork lot on the other.

This is the second time I've posted on this issue and in general I don't seem to have raised much response. I know that my perspective is not popular judging by what I read/hear/see in the media, but I was at least expecting the RAR side of the house to respond in some way. I think I've been balanced and mature in presenting my opinions but the lack of response would suggest that don't suit RAR types agendas.

I've been there, and people I speak to are interested in what I've to say until they realise I don't subscribe to the "it made me realise how lucky we have it/will somebody think of the children!" arguments so popular amongst my middle class peers (don't like class terminology but in the absence of a better phrase!)

Where is the leadership on this issue? Where is the debate? This is a complicated issue of national strategic importance. No matter on what side of the spectrum you come from you must admit that this is going to blow up in our faces years down the line if we don't get it right now.

jdivision

dodgyme wrote:

Come on now - I think we all know what constitutes being irish. EVery country in the world is flexible insofar with dealing with players in relation to team sports. What we are talking about is not sport, its real life.

So you think that somebody born in Ireland who spends all their life there isn't Irish. That's your perogative. I vehemently disagree.

Flying

mike65 wrote:

This is being discussed on Politics forum and is a Dublin issue according to the thread starter so maybe it should be moved to Dublin or merged with the Politics thread no?

Mike.

Politics has so many over zealous facists and looney anti semtic left wingers it is better left here as it is both polticial and religious

Flying

Your Irish if your parents or parent did not illegally enter this country to get citizenship simple as that.

If you legally immigrate here fine no probs weither your from Afghanistan or Uganda.

But 10's of thousands of yes Nigerians forced their way into Ireland, Overwhlemed every government institution and blantantly lied about their reason for entry and first EU port of call.

I have physically being in Nigeria both North and South and these people are not fleeing opression they are simply here to ride the state like our own skangers, travellers and who ever else decides to rob the tax payers money.


Actual Irish children should get preference and not "Irish" children of non national parents who illegally entered the country.

Terry

Flying wrote:

Your Irish if your parents or parent did not illegally enter this country to get citizenship simple as that.

If you legally immigrate here fine no probs weither your from Afghanistan or Uganda.

But 10's of thousands of yes Nigerians forced their way into Ireland, Overwhlemed every government institution and blantantly lied about their reason for entry and first EU port of call.

I have physically being in Nigeria both North and South and these people are not fleeing opression they are simply here to ride the state like our own skangers, travellers and who ever else decides to rob the tax payers money.


Actual Irish children should get preference and not "Irish" children of non national parents who illegally entered the country.

Please back up your claims with facts or I will ban you.

gurramok

Another aspect to the schooling problem is the planning system.

Ask yourself this, why do you find outside the city centre most foreigners are in the boom developments and not residing in pre-boom established suburban housing?

Reason being, most of the stock of new developments in last 7 yrs was bought by buy-to-let landlords with favourable tax regimes and new immigrants do largely rent.

dodgyme

jdivision wrote:

So you think that somebody born in Ireland who spends all their life there isn't Irish. That's your perogative. I vehemently disagree.

Dont put words in my mouth. I dont think talking about what team Ronan O'Gara plays for is part of this debate.

However even with the words you have put in my mouth. My cousins born and bred in england (to Irish parent) who dont regard themselves as english but as Irish. They never regarded themselves as english and even fly to dublin for GAA matches and Republic of ireland games. :rolleyes:

FatherTed

Flying wrote:

Your Irish if your parents or parent did not illegally enter this country to get citizenship simple as that.

...

Thats not what the law said when these kids (now 5-6 years old) were born. They are Irish Citizens whether you like it or not. Since the law change you would be right but they were born before the law change.

Flying

Terry wrote:

Please back up your claims with facts or I will ban you.

Ban me for what, what exactly did we have a referendum about !!!!

Flying

FatherTed wrote:

Thats not what the law said when these kids (now 5-6 years old) were born. They are Irish Citizens whether you like it or not. Since the law change you would be right but they were born before the law change.

Hence they entered (the parents) under illegal means to gain citizenship... A child has no choice were they are born or to the parents who are using them for ecomonic gain...

Can people not see they have cleary broken they law and are giving two fingers to the system in this country also !

If I enter the US illegally and get caught I have a good chance of going to a hell hole of a prison, they same should be applied here but alas not.

meditraitor

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/kevin-myers/the-problem-isnt-racism-its-the-tidal-wave-of-immigrants-1071385.html

Food for thought

Rob_l

Flying wrote:

Hence they entered (the parents) under illegal means to gain citizenship... A child has no choice were they are born or to the parents who are using them for ecomonic gain...

Can people not see they have cleary broken they law and are giving two fingers to the system in this country also !

If I enter the US illegally and get caught I have a good chance of going to a hell hole of a prison, they same should be applied here but alas not.

1

Irish Constitution wrote:

2. 1° Notwithstanding any other provision of this Constitution, a person born in the island of Ireland, which includes its islands and seas, who does not have, at the time of the birth of that person, at least one parent who is an Irish citizen or entitled to be an Irish citizen is not entitled to Irish citizenship or nationality, unless provided for by law.

2° This section shall not apply to persons born before the date of the enactment of this section.

Flying

Rob_l wrote:

1

Has it being enacted yet ?

dodgyme

milmo wrote:

Sam & Dodgy, thanks for the backup.

It seems to me that the only voices I hear on this issue are RAR on one side or the flaming torch and pitch fork lot on the other.

This is the second time I've posted on this issue and in general I don't seem to have raised much response. I know that my perspective is not popular judging by what I read/hear/see in the media, but I was at least expecting the RAR side of the house to respond in some way. I think I've been balanced and mature in presenting my opinions but the lack of response would suggest that don't suit RAR types agendas.

I've been there, and people I speak to are interested in what I've to say until they realise I don't subscribe to the "it made me realise how lucky we have it/will somebody think of the children!" arguments so popular amongst my middle class peers (don't like class terminology but in the absence of a better phrase!)

Where is the leadership on this issue? Where is the debate? This is a complicated issue of national strategic importance. No matter on what side of the spectrum you come from you must admit that this is going to blow up in our faces years down the line if we don't get it right now.

I'd like to see a few people here spend a summer or two in sunny Lagos when I did and the opinions would soon change.

FatherTed

Flying wrote:

Hence they entered (the parents) under illegal means to gain citizenship... A child has no choice were they are born or to the parents who are using them for ecomonic gain...

Can people not see they have cleary broken they law and are giving two fingers to the system in this country also !

If I enter the US illegally and get caught I have a good chance of going to a hell hole of a prison, they same should be applied here but alas not.

You are missing the point. It is not about the parents and what they did. It is about the kids. And in the US, not many people are deported on the grand scale. And they're kids will go to school whether the kids are US citizens or not.

Rob_l

Flying wrote:

Has it being enacted yet ?

that is the constitution of this nation as it stands now.

I have taken that excerpt from
http://www.taoiseach.gov.ie/index.asp?docID=243

and that is the Constitution as it has been since Nov 2004

Flying

meditraitor wrote:

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/kevin-myers/the-problem-isnt-racism-its-the-tidal-wave-of-immigrants-1071385.html

Food for thought

Well said on his part in a nutshell, were f*cked as between a fifth or quarter of the population are non-nationals lovely job lads, wait till the race riots and whatever chaos that will ensue like the UK...

Snake Plisken

meditraitor wrote:

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/kevin-myers/the-problem-isnt-racism-its-the-tidal-wave-of-immigrants-1071385.html

Food for thought

Excellent article with a lot of truths in it, Myers hit the nail on the head with that article. Thanks for sharing the link.

Snake

Rob_l

Flying wrote:

Well said on his part in a nutshell, were f*cked as between a fifth or quarter of the population are non-nationals lovely job lads, wait till the race riots and whatever chaos that will ensue like the UK...

I agree it was a well written piece and perhaps sums what many of us here were trying to say in relation to the racist claims

Wook

Flying wrote:

Well said on his part in a nutshell, were f*cked as between a fifth or quarter of the population are non-nationals lovely job lads, wait till the race riots and whatever chaos that will ensue like the UK...

dramaqueen, this ain't LA

Flying

Wook wrote:

dramaqueen, this ain't LA

Not yet If I were a betting man I would give it 10 years at most and it will all kick off !

milmo

Indeed, an excellent and well written article. By no means definitive but at least it provides balance to the mainstream media.

Unfortunately, Kevin Meyers takes on unpopular issues long before the rest of the mainstream have the courage to acknowledge them (irish fighting in world war I etc). He is also a polarising figure, which means that those who agendas he challenges can use his criticism to validate their positions.

His headline writer had gone for the "tidal wave" cliche, which Meyers never states in the article. This is immature and irresponsible.

It attempts to pigeon hole Meyers as an Alf Garnet persona and undermines his argument from the start. It shows just how committed the Indo is to an open debate on the issue.

Nevyn

Flying wrote:

Not yet If I were a betting man I would give it 10 years at most and it will all kick off !

It can be avoided and the best way is to educate children about the different cultures and integrate them.

jdivision

Flying wrote:

Well said on his part in a nutshell, were f*cked as between a fifth or quarter of the population are non-nationals lovely job lads, wait till the race riots and whatever chaos that will ensue like the UK...

Given you quoted Myers figures for that you might want to take some basic maths classes. Population of Republic of Ireland is around 4.25 million, taking Myers 600,000 figure (which I disagree with as it's a guestimate) that would equate to about one-seventh of the population.

biko

Bring back hedge schools

jdivision

dodgyme wrote:

Dont put words in my mouth. I dont think talking about what team Ronan O'Gara plays for is part of this debate.

However even with the words you have put in my mouth. My cousins born and bred in england (to Irish parent) who dont regard themselves as english but as Irish. They never regarded themselves as english and even fly to dublin for GAA matches and Republic of ireland games. :rolleyes:

Good stuff. Now perhaps you might think about the other posters statement that somebody born and brought up in Ireland isn't Irish, not because they don't think so but because he doesn't think so. As for your friends, being more Irish than the Irish themselves is great but it doesn't mean somebody born here isn't Irish particularly when they're entitled to Irish citizenship.

Getting back to the original point, I think people are missing the macroeconomic issue somewhat. One of the reasons for the shortage of school spaces is the government's planning policies and other policies which drove up house prices, in turn created out of town sprawl so those who wanted to buy a home couldn't afford to. So what's happening is that many communities within the M50 are suffering from a drop in population and their schools can't get enough pupils (Belcamp College, Kilbarrack etc) so close down but aren't being replaced with schools outside of the M50. Why is the Dept so slow to provide new schools where they're needed? Could it be the fact that instead of having to buy the land with say an educational use zoning or a restricted use zoning, instead they have to pay developers the price of residential or commercial zoned land for the site, increasing its value four or five times? Councillors should hang their heads in shame that this issue has still not been remedied.

Catari Jaguar

Thaedydal wrote:

It can be avoided and the best way is to educate children about the different cultures and integrate them.

Yea, great plan. That'll TOTALLY work. haha.

dodgyme

jdivision wrote:

Good stuff. Now perhaps you might think about the other posters statement that somebody born and brought up in Ireland isn't Irish, not because they don't think so but because he doesn't think so..

And tomorrow he'd be scottich Asutrailian or Russian depending on the latest welfare scam targetted country. Come on. The truth about it is the scamming was going on when I was in Lagos and it made me sick the way in which we were being targetted for welfare scammers and asylum, by well to do nigerians. Any other country but ireland would have immediately kicked them back home. The organisers of the Barbera Streisland concert would have manged better , but no we fluffed it and had the old chip on the shoulder argument about emigration which is now gone so we enter the territory of symantics about being irish or not. Its not about that, its about why we pay our taxes and who benefits. I dont feel like paying for a nigerian scammers children when my own will not get places either. You should go to nigeria and learn the lessons the hard way.

pwd

dodgyme wrote:

And tomorrow he'd be scottich Asutrailian or Russian depending on the latest welfare scam targetted country. Come on. The truth about it is the scamming was going on when I was in Lagos and it made me sick the way in which we were being targetted for welfare scammers and asylum, by well to do nigerians. Any other country but ireland would have immediately kicked them back home. The organisers of the Barbera Streisland concert would have manged better , but no we fluffed it and had the old chip on the shoulder argument about emigration which is now gone so we enter the territory of symantics about being irish or not. Its not about that, its about why we pay our taxes and who benefits. I dont feel like paying for a nigerian scammers children when my own will not get places either. You should go to nigeria and learn the lessons the hard way.

What did you see in Lagos?

SimpleSam06

Thaedydal wrote:

It can be avoided and the best way is to educate children about the different cultures and integrate them.

You are assuming that any of the immigrants actually want to integrate. This has rarely been shown to be the case.

There are a lot of hard words going around here, and some hard truths behind them unfortunately. I say unfortunately because this country's motto has always been "Céad Mile Fáilte", a Hundred Thousand Welcomes.

Its painful to see that open, welcoming attitude being abused by some, and perhaps changing to something more like "Festung Europa", Fortress Europe. The most open countries in Europe have been tightening their immigration policies (ref. Netherlands in particular), and there is a rising tide of opinion in many countries which is strongly, even violently anti-immigrant.

Its also a shame because many immigrant groups add a great deal to this country and to the countries they visit, enriching the local culture and cuisine with their experiences. My own wife is Asian, and the recent supreme court decision to deport non-eu spouses, although it did not affect us directly, caused a great deal of anxiety while that was being clarified.

Some immigrant groups, however, do not add anything, but take from their host nations and abuse this hospitality, and the collateral damage when they are being removed will be heavy.

Nevyn

True not all of them do with a polish primary school having been set up to teach the polich national ciriculm in polish to polish children who's parents are here for a few years and intend to return to poland and do not want to distrubt thier children's education.

Flying

jdivision wrote:

Given you quoted Myers figures for that you might want to take some basic maths classes. Population of Republic of Ireland is around 4.25 million, taking Myers 600,000 figure (which I disagree with as it's a guestimate) that would equate to about one-seventh of the population.

Nit picking and that is a conservative estimate it is most likely a lot larger and getting worse daily... I was never good at maths in school either

Terry

Flying wrote:

Terry wrote:

Please back up your claims with facts or I will ban you.

Ban me for what, what exactly did we have a referendum about !!!!

Boards.ie never had a referendum and does not employ a policy of free speech.

Others need to take note of this.
Flying is now banned.

SpAcEd OuT

Just a quick note,

I have a friend of Ugandan descent who when he first came here 10 years ago was refused access to several schools because his english was poor, He lived in my estate so we hung around a lot and let me tell you his english was perfect, no problems whatsoever.

I was talking to him recently and he was saying his Brother was having trouble getting his son into a school for the same reason, 10 years on and the same excuses, and trust me this family speak perfect english.

Oh and I noticed a few posters saying comments like ''they don't intergrate with Irish'' or ''They sponge off the state'' and ''They came here illegally''

Firstly, Both brothers played GAA one of them even made the effort to take up Irish in his third year in school, he was too far behind but in fairness to him he gave it a lash

Secondly, both their parents work and to this day my friend and his brothers all work.

Thirdly, they didn't come here illegally, and though a lot of Africans may have on the other side a lot of Africans also came here legally

Just try not to generalize

Ickle Magoo

Ms Hanafin said: "Just because the child is black, doesn't mean they're not Irish. So it might be a skin-colour issue, but it's not necessarily a race issue."

Oh, well that's ok then?! :rolleyes:

I can't believe in 2007, Ireland has a national school system whereby pupils can be legally discriminated against based on their religion or their race...it's shameful. When are the government going to face up to their responsibilities?! :mad:

jdivision

dodgyme wrote:

And tomorrow he'd be scottich Asutrailian or Russian depending on the latest welfare scam targetted country. Come on. The truth about it is the scamming was going on when I was in Lagos and it made me sick the way in which we were being targetted for welfare scammers and asylum, by well to do nigerians.

Of course he will because everybody's a sponger aren't they.:rolleyes: Might be of interest to note that until recently asylum seekers weren't allowed work no matter how wealthy they were.
immigration policy has been tightened but doesn't mean that people born here aren't Irish tbh.

Scally07

Terry wrote:

Boards.ie never had a referendum and does not employ a policy of free speech.

Others need to take note of this.
Flying is now banned.

*Terry throws rattle out of pram*

:rolleyes:

You'll find that most Irish people aren't racist, publically or privately.

I'm assuming your skin is lily white because I find Irish people EXTREMELY racist. Not only the skangers, taxi drivers etc with their blatant racism, but also a lot of people who seem like they would know better. I'm not even black, or even foreign, I have an Irish name, an Irish passport, my family is Irish and I still get loads of ignorant comments because my GREAT grandparents are from southern Europe. So far back that I'd never be entitled to a passport from that country, yet because my skin is tanned, I can't POSSIBLY be Irish. If I ever claim to be, its always 'yes but where are you REALLY from?' It seems that unless you are pasty faced and freckly you can never be considered an 'indigenous Irish' person, as someone put it. Nobody ever questions my brother, since he got none of the Mediterranean genes and 'looks Irish'. It's ridiculous. Most of the time it's not meant as a rude comment (although from time to time someone says something without realising I speak perfect English and understand them), it's a result of ignorance, but it's very annoying to constantly be made to feel like a foreigner in your own country. I have an Irish accent, I have a very Irish name, isn't that enough to tell you I'm blatantly not from elsewhere?

I really wish some people would get it into their thick heads that Irish does NOT have to equal pale skin and freckles. I couldn't even imagine being an Irish born black person (who I believe has as much right to be Irish as anyone else - its the country they were born in and sometimnes the only one they know), can only imagine the ignorant remarks they would have to put up with.

Karl Hungus

Kassandra Large Self-expression wrote:

Irish does NOT have to equal pale skin and freckles.

Burn the non-believer!!!!