A Cleaner Thread !

Islam Glory

This's a cleaner thread to discuss the questions which were asked in my previous thread.

I'd like to apologize first for not reading the charter & didn't know that verbatim posts weren't allowed, so sorry for that.

But I think it's ok to answer questions ... if I'm wrong please correct me.

Unfortunately the biggest experience of Arab culture I've had is a two-hour stop over in Abu Dhabi and nineteen hours in Dubai. I'm still not convinced that a nine year old girl living in the desert would have been sufficiently matured to warrant marriage (and more). Perhaps if I was from an Arab culture I would see this as normal behaviour, but as I am not, I really don't.

This has nothing to do with the current Arab culture ... We have to note that these events happened in the 7th century
where life was so simple, people lived in tents , girls didn't go to school & they didn't have to wait till they finished their college education to get married !

Also Teen Marriage was very common at the old ages ... In Ancient Rome young girls were often married off when they were between the ages of
twelve and fourteen. Some young men married at the age of fourteen also.

During the Middle Ages, the practice of youthful marriages continued and women married as early as fourteen. About.com

Nowadays that's not the case; even in the Arab countries the average age of marriage has raised to 23 or something !

I cannot see how a nine year old girl in the desert would be much more matured that my nine year old cousin.

Sure there's a big difference between a girl who lived in a tent in the desert
in the 7th century and our children nowadays who were brought up on cartoons & candy !


Just like what tbh said "you can't judge behaviour then by standards now."

Islam, how about jihad? what are your views on that? Does it say anything in the Koran that if you live in a non-muslim state, you must try to make it a muslim state?

Jihad has many forms it's not just fighting ... and fighting here means against who fights you first ... as a self defense

Muslims are forbidden to attack who left them alone & didn't fight them!

If a Muslim lives in a non-muslim state he must comply to the laws of this state unless they were against his beliefs ...

& if he had friends or family who weren't muslim, he should advise them gently and guide them to Islam if they want ... Nobody can force anyone else to be a Muslim .

This link contains more information about the definition of jihad in Islam.

If there's anything that's not clear , I'd be glad to clarify it God willing.

And I agree with the moderator when he said " The OP is not the definitive answer"

Everyone can search as they like ... Just make sure that the sources you search from are trusted .

Sorry for the long post...

the_new_mr

Salam Islam Glory. Welcome to the Islam forum. Please remember not to use colours in your text. If you want to highlight a word or series of words, please use bold and/or underline or even italics like this: 7th century.

On topic, the issue of the age of Aisha has already been discussed at length on this forum. In quick summary, the conclusion (or at least my own conclusion) that was that with conflicting reports of the age that Aisha was married ranging from 6 to anywhere around 15 or more it's impossible to know how old she was anyway. Also, regardless of the age of marriage, the consummation of the marriage would not have been done until Aisha had matured and it was custom at those times (as far as I know) for the marriage to be well before the time of consummation.

As for jihad, it's a delicate topic but once understood correctly, there's no problems.

The meaning of jihad from Arabic actually literally means struggle. This can be the struggle to better oneself in trying to purify the soul. Or it can be the struggle someone may face when trying to improve their society and how it's run. Or it can be trying to present Islam in the correct manner to those ignorant or mis-informed of it (I pray that our struggle on this forum is classified as such). Or it can be fighting against the enemy militarily or otherwise.

There are three situations where jihad (in the military sense) can be legitimate (if my understanding is correct).

1.: In self-defense against an attack initiated by an opposing party.
2.: In defense against being forced out of one's home.
3.: To protect innocent people who are under attack from an oppressor and are unable to protect themselves.

Hope that the combination of the last two posts have answered people's questions.

Some verses on the subject:
Al-Baqara 190-193
"And fight in God's cause against those who wage war against you, but do not commit aggression-for, verily, God does not love aggressors; And slay them wherever you may come upon them, and drive them away from wherever they drove you away - for oppression is even worse than killing. And fight not against them near the Inviolable House of Worship unless they fight against you there first; but if they fight against you, slay them: such shall be the recompense of those who deny the truth; But if they desist-behold, God is much-forgiving, a dispenser of grace; Hence, fight against them until there is no more oppression and all worship is devoted to God alone; but if they desist, then all hostility shall cease, save against those who [wilfully] do wrong."

Finally, I'd just like to point out that, in my opinion, islamqa.com is a bit of a dodgy site. I've read some questionable material there and I wouldn't recommend getting your info from it. I'd recommend islamonline.net

tbh

thanks guys, interesting reading. All the best.

hairyheretic

Islam Glory wrote:

If a Muslim lives in a non-muslim state he must comply to the laws of this state unless they were against his beliefs ...

Is that an official tenet of Islam? If so, it's one I would find somewhat disturbing. There are a few laws I may not like, but whether I like them or not, they are the law, and if they are not obeyed, then there is no law.

Can you give any examples of laws that you think should not be complied with?

Islam Glory wrote:

& if he had friends or family who weren't muslim, he should advise them gently and guide them to Islam if they want ... Nobody can force anyone else to be a Muslim

There was a news story posted (last week I think) in one of the threads on the Christianity forum that would indicate something different. It was detailing examples of young non muslim women in Asia being forced into marriage with muslim men, and converted, or at least officially registered as muslims.

I'm not saying this is likely to be in any way common, but if true it's disturbing regardless of the religious component.

wes

hairyheretic wrote:

There was a news story posted (last week I think) in one of the threads on the Christianity forum that would indicate something different. It was detailing examples of young non muslim women in Asia being forced into marriage with muslim men, and converted, or at least officially registered as muslims.

I'm not saying this is likely to be in any way common, but if true it's disturbing regardless of the religious component.

Would take those with a pinch of salt, I am not sure about Asia, but these accusations are made in the UK quite a bit and have proven to be false. Here is a link to a BBC Asian Network show about this in the UK:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/asiannetwork/documentaries/forcedconversions.shtml

So I am not sure about the specific cases in Asia, but considering the accusations made in the UK, I do take these things with a pinch of salt, not saying they don't happen in Asia, just that I know some people do fabricate such accusations, so I don't take these things at face value.

Of course, forced conversion is completely wrong.

hairyheretic

Cheers, I wasn't aware of the follow up on it.

PDN

hairyheretic wrote:

Cheers, I wasn't aware of the follow up on it.

Probably because the 'follow up' is in regards to a totally separate issue (alleged forced conversions in the UK).

The forced conversions in Pakistan are very well documented in the Pakistani court records and by human rights groups.

Is it true that ostriches hide their heads in the sand?

wes

PDN wrote:

Probably because the 'follow up' is in regards to a totally separate issue (alleged forced conversions in the UK).

The forced conversions in Pakistan are very well documented in the Pakistani court records and by human rights groups.

Is it true that ostriches hide their heads in the sand?

I made it very clear it was about the UK, I was talking about :rolleyes: . I also said I was unsure of the situation in Asia.

The groups mentioned in the BBC programme have links back to Asia, so calling it a completely separate issue is untrue, the people involved in the UK have links back to organizations back in Asia and use some of the same rhetoric.

the_new_mr

PDN wrote:

Is it true that ostriches hide their heads in the sand?

There's no call for that.

hairyheretic wrote:

Is that an official tenet of Islam? If so, it's one I would find somewhat disturbing.

As a Muslim, if you're living in a country then you have to respect the laws of that country. I think what Islam Glory probably meant was something like even though it's legal to drink alcohol in Ireland, you're not supposed to drink in Islam so that's not okay. Am I right Islam Glory?

As wes has already pointed out. A lot of these forced conversion stories are often rubbish. Even so, no doubt it's happening in some places. Regardless of whether or not it's happening, it's not okay. The Quran is very clear on that with the following famous verse as an indication which was revealed during the Prophet Mohamed's (peace be upon him) time in Medina as head of state and not during the early years in Mecca as Pope Benedict incorrectly stated in his speech.

Al-Baqara:256
"There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is henceforth distinct from error. And he who rejecteth false deities and believeth in Allah hath grasped a firm handhold which will never break. Allah is Hearer, Knower."

hairyheretic

the_new_mr wrote:

As a Muslim, if you're living in a country then you have to respect the laws of that country. I think what Islam Glory probably meant was something like even though it's legal to drink alcohol in Ireland, you're not supposed to drink in Islam so that's not okay. Am I right Islam Glory?

Hmm. I suppose thats possible, but if so the phrasing was a bit odd.

The way I read it was that if the religion permits something, but the secular law forbids it, then the secular law is ignored.

PDN

the_new_mr wrote:

There's no call for that.[/i]

I think there's every call for that.

I believe it is fundamentally dishonest and dangerous for any of us (regardless of our religious affiliation) to deny facts that we might find uncomfortable or challenging.

For example, holocaust deniers, by saying they would take the reports of 6 million Jews killed by Hitler "with a pinch of salt" make it easier for such events to be repeated.

Or if I, as a Christian leader, decide that I am not going to believe historical accounts of the Inquisition, then Christians will be less likely to learn the important lessons from that shameful part of our history.

I understand that the accounts of forced conversions will be uncomfortable to a Western Muslim. To attempt to cast a whiff of doubt over the suffering of others may make Wes feel more comfortable, but in my opinion it is a further insult to those who have already been wronged.

I actually feel that my ostrich reference was very mild indeed. If I had used a figure of speech that expressed my true disgust at such denialism then I would undoubtedly be banned.

wes

PDN wrote:

I understand that the accounts of forced conversions will be uncomfortable to a Western Muslim. To attempt to cast a whiff of doubt over the suffering of others may make Wes feel more comfortable, but in my opinion it is a further insult to those who have already been wronged.

I actually feel that my ostrich reference was very mild indeed. If I had used a figure of speech that expressed my true disgust at such denialism then I would undoubtedly be banned.

Simply put there are people who make up forced conversion stories, I just pointed this out. I never once said it doesn't happen. So the rubbish your spouting about me denying it, is just that, rubbish. I never denied it happening. All I said was that I didn't know about the situation in Asia, which is not denial, but an admission of a lack of knowledge. My posts weren't exactly complicated.

I just said I take these stories with a pinch of salt since there are people who actually make these things up. This is also a fact. It may be hard for you to accept that people make stuff up, but they do and that sadly casts doubt on other similar stories. It doesn't mean there not real far from it, but if I see an article about in a Newspaper, I check the source make sure its reputable such as Human rights organizations and not some randomer. I simply don't take them at face value, thats its, I don't pretend they don't happen, I just take a deeper look at it.

So you can be disgusted about something I never denied all you want, but accusing me of something I never said. I made it clear more than once in my post I was not denying these things happen, but that there are people who fabricate these stories as well and I gave an example of people in the UK who do so who have links back to Asia. I am sure there are forced conversion and these are completely wrong. This doesn't changed the fact there are also horrible people who make these things up as well. This also happens, its sad that people do that. So I am hardly trying to make out that some peoples suffering is lessened due to some people fabricating stories, your ire should be directed at them and not me.

So quite frankly I am disgusted at your accusations against me. You accusations are uncalled for, I never said the crap your attributing to me. Comparing me to a Holocaust denier, very nice btw. Pretty funny since I didn't deny anything. So you can hurl all the personal insults that you want at me, and come up with what ever straw men you want, but it won't change anything I have said.

Here, how about this, check Human rights watch and some of the articles on the treatment of Christians and how some far right nuts accuse them of forced conversions as well. Here are some links: Link 1, Link 2.

Check out this Christian web site: http://www.aiccindia.org/ and here is a search for accusations made against Christians of forced conversions. Perhaps using Christian examples may prove my point a bit more, seeing as that far too many people simply like to think the worse of Muslims.

Again to make it clear (seeing as that some people have huge difficulty with what I say), I am not denying forced conversions happen at all and they are reprehensible.