Please, please.....look around.

Black Swan

So Glad wrote:

I was told and can now confirm that a young girl aged 15 I think it was, received her Junior Cert results today and failed one or two subjects. Because of this, she decided to jump in front of a train at Howth Junction station, right beside where I live.

There had to be a LOT MORE to this than just failing one or two subjects!:eek:

Pinker

indough wrote:

What other factors cause mental illness (not disbelieving, just curious to know)? My understanding is that factors may cause mental illness, but that the illness itself was the chemical imbalance, as in the said factors cause a chemical imbalance.

CMJ, in the post I replied to you seemed to be making the point that a chemical imbalance couldn't be treated without medication, which is false. So technically you would have been wrong...not that it matters really

That really depends on the mental illness in question, the brain is the last frontier of modern medicine in many ways, 1,000,000,000 neurons, the most complex phenomenon in the known universe, yes that's our humble brain. Anyway my point is that as the brain is so somplex each mental illness has its own supposed causes.

Schizophrenia for example has been shown to have some genetic basis, it was long thought to have been caused by ones environment, in particular a 'cold mother', but thats no longer supported.

Depression has been linked to depressed levels of serotonin, but which causes which,.. the low serotonin or the depression?, chicken or the egg? so to speak. Depression can most definitely be caused by life circumstances although some people are more prone than others, why exactly we don't know yet. Diet is another big factor, as is alcohol abuse. In Ireland since 1995 alcohol usage has increased by 100%, in the same period of time suicide rates have increased 100%, I'm not saying one is definitely caused by the other but it is food for thought.

Other times someone may wake up in a town and have no idea who they are or where they are for that matter, rare as this is it happens. In a recent case a young man was found in a confused state, it transpire after months of investigation he had been kidnapped and gang raped. The ordeal was so traumatic his mind blanked it and evrything else out, this state of amnesia is usually temporary.

I hope that answers your query somewhat.

Dalfiatach

So Glad wrote:

Yes, it is not for one second "learning". It is how good you are at repeating things unquestionably.

The Murder Machine, Pearse called it. Because it is specifically designed to murder individuality, self-expression, the ability to rationally and logically think your own way through a problem...our education system crushes free thinking, enforces mind-numbing conformity, and churns out a nation of servile sheep who only know how to mindlessly parrot What Everybody Knows.

He was right about that in 1913, and it remains just as true today:

Padraig Pearse wrote:

Modem education systems are elaborate pieces of machinery devised by highly-salaried officials for the purpose of turning out citizens according to certain approved patterns. The modem school is a State-controlled institution designed to produce workers for the State, and is in the same category which a dockyard, or any other State-controlled institution which produces articles necessary to the progress, well-being, and defence of the State. We speak of the ‘efficiency’, the ‘cheapness’ and the ‘up-to-dateness' of an education system just as we speak of the ‘efficiency’, the ‘cheapness’ and the ‘up-to-dateness' of a system of manufacturing coal-gas.

As to your original rant, well said. I've said the same thing myself to that parasitic generation of vampires currently running this country - the youngsters are opting out of your society because your system stinks and offers them nothing but a lifetime of slavery. The kids aren't stupid, they know the life they are being herded into sucks.

Call Me Jimmy

Look I was questioning that poster's logic and the way they said it was like outside factors couldn't be the reason for something like depression because mental illness is caused by "chemical imbalances". Implying that there is just this unexplainable loss of chemicals or something, that was my point. I know that technically you could say that all mental illness is a chemical imbalance but that is at the low level. My point is that if there is a chemical imbalance it is caused mostly by external factors.

indough

You'd be right to say that, the world we live in does affect our mental state, but I don't think that any change in society can be held accountable for this girl's suicide.

There have always been obstacles in peoples lives which have the potential to cause depression, it's not simply a symptom of a problem in our society.

It is most likely the individuals inability to cope with these situations that makes them susceptible to the condition rather than the society in which they live, but that's just my own opinion on the matter.

Either way it's a terribly sad story, the kind that forces you to ponder on your own priorities in life. My heart really goes out to the girl, her family and anyone suffering from depression for whatever reason.

Call Me Jimmy

indough wrote:

You'd be right to say that, the world we live in does affect our mental state, but I don't think that any change in society can be held accountable for this girl's suicide.

There have always been obstacles in peoples lives which have the potential to cause depression, it's not simply a symptom of a problem in our society.

It is most likely the individuals inability to cope with these situations that makes them susceptible to the condition rather than the society in which they live, but that's just my own opinion on the matter.

Either way it's a terribly sad story, the kind that forces you to ponder on your own priorities in life. My heart really goes out to the girl, her family and anyone suffering from depression for whatever reason.

I never said that this girls problem was anything to do with society, if you were replying to me, I was just saying that many mental illnesses (if not all) are caused by external factors.

EDIT: I noticed from a couple posts I missed that ye probably weren't replying to me.

So Glad

Good to see this was front page news today.

thelordofcheese

So Glad wrote:

Yes, it is not for one second "learning". It is how good you are at repeating things unquestionably.

Thats because, no matter how much time and effort you put into it, 2 + 2 is not equal to 5.

nyarlothothep

Two things,

Firstly its silly to attribute depression solely to a chemical imbalance, its caused either by genetics, environmental factors or a mixture of both.

Secondly that Pearse quote was really enlightening, his description is fairly accurate. The education system doesn't really tailor towards understanding stuff, but repeating it verbatim to pass exams, to get points then go into college. Our society has a lot of flaws, the main one is the quality of leadership. However, living now, despite all the rampant materialism, decline of communal sentiments etc, is not as bad as living as one of the great unwashed circa 1400, circa 1800, circa 1900. Things have improved to some extent. In comparison to the guillotine for freely expressing yourself back in the day of monarchies or meeting the wrath of a psychotic warlord named Vlad at least we have a semblance of democracy now. That said this society has flaws which need to be remedied. The competitive culture, the whole promotion of the notion of what being a success is - having loadsa money, big car... -it suits some but not everyone and it shouldn't be the case that it seems like its the only path in life to follow. Also the transport system, health service yadda yadda.

TPD

The papers arent reporting this as suicide yet are they? I was reading about it today, referred to it as a 'tragic incident' (not accident). Someone from the family asked that the media doesn't put a spin on it.

Varkov

Sigh,

Yes maybe some people are put under / put themselves under too much stress and pressure during school. This, however is not the sole attribute of her death/suicide.
Having recently finished secondary school and from the people I know attending mixed/gender specific/the institute I can GARANTEE you the schools are not heaping the pressures on.

Some people who do suffer from depression or other mental conditions will be afected by things like this, but it is a deeper rooted problem, the same can be said about any aspects of this modern life we're living in. Things may pile up and get us down. But it is down to the person themselves if they can deal with it, weather through medication or support.

Its very easy for people to assume the cause of something, true it probably was a contributing factor. But you never know what's going through someones head.

Terry

TPD wrote:

The papers arent reporting this as suicide yet are they? I was reading about it today, referred to it as a 'tragic incident' (not accident). Someone from the family asked that the media doesn't put a spin on it.

There's an attached picture of one of the papers, which reported it as a suicide, earlier in this thread.
Or maybe it was the other thread.

johnnyrotten

Herald ( **** rag I know ) reported it on front page tonight

phasers

schools definitely pile on the pressure

I've been back in school two weeks and have been told that the leaving is the be all and end all roughly 19 times

I know this is a load of toss but other girls are getting pretty freaked out, I can really see how it can be too much for a lot of people, especially if the parents add to the stress at home

mike65

Wishbone Ash wrote:

I did the Inter Cert in 1984 and the Leaving Certificate in 1986. The country was on it's knees then. How can people think that there is more pressure on pupils nowadays? It was almost impossible then to get what would now be called a 'minimum wage' job. All the way through secondary school, we were told that there were no jobs out there. It certainly made learning Latin and Greek seem futile but we must have been a resilient bunch. I've never been un employed here even though, at the time, everyone was going to the USA.

Candidates for interview were shortlisted using ridiculous methods like the colour of pen used or the amount of folds on the form. My older sister went for an interview in 1985. There were 20 positions and 2,000 applicants. (She got it). The same job is now being done by foreigners.

This tragic event this morning had nothing to do with the junior Certificate or the pressures involved. If it wasn't today , it would have been some other day.

I won't try to argue the last point as we just don't know.

On the rest, I'm the same generation as you so I know what it was like. Perversely because the country was on its knees the pressure may have been lesser. No-one expected to be a high flying achiever. Just getting a job, any job was considered a success. If you did'nt get one - that was not a matter for shame. Likewise third-level education was not presumed to be a target for almost all school-leavers and finally there was always the boat following in the footsteps of the previous generations.

Now any of the above is a considered an outright failure. If we ever hit another prolonged slump one wonders what the social fall-out might be.

Mike.

Wishbone Ash

mike65 wrote:

Perversely because the country was on its knees the pressure may have been lesser

Good point mike. My God, it was gloomy when you look back. I don't think we realised how bad it was at the time!

Terry

mike65 wrote:

I won't try to argue the last point as we just don't know.

On the rest, I'm the same generation as you so I know what it was like. Perversely because the country was on its knees the pressure may have been lesser. No-one expected to be a high flying achiever. Just getting a job, any job was considered a success. If you did'nt get one - that was not a matter for shame. Likewise third-level education was not presumed to be a target for almost all school-leavers and finally there was always the boat following in the footsteps of the previous generations.

Now any of the above is a considered an outright failure. If we ever hit another prolonged slump one wonders what the social fall-out might be.

Mike.

It never fails to amuse me how some people will look down on others because of their job. That didn't happen when I was growing up. You were lucky to get a job and it didn't matter is it was sweeping roads (some people fail to realise that a job with the council is one for life, with a decent pension), working in McDonalds or any other so called crappy job.

I remember reading a comment by someone about how hairdressers are thick as **** (not the thread from the other day) and wondering what that person worked at. It turned out they were unemployed at the time.
Three of my cousins left school early in the late 70's to work as hairdressers. Two of them now own their own successful businesses and employ 15 people between them.

As for the possible slump, I think a lot of people will be eating their words.

Wishbone Ash

Terry wrote:

some people fail to realise that a job with the council is one for life, with a decent pension

In the mid 1980s, I think everyone realised that but it was nigh on impossible to get a job with the Council/Corpo then. I probably would have jumped straight in at the chance but it doesn't look as appealing nowadays. No doubt, it may look very attractive again soon!

oneeyedsnake

So Glad wrote:

I was told and can now confirm that a young girl aged 15 I think it was, received her Junior Cert results today and failed one or two subjects. Because of this, she decided to jump in front of a train at Howth Junction station, right beside where I live.

You most likely won't find this in the news.

I know there is a thread about it here, but I wish to ask a favor of you all. Look around the world you are creating for your children. Look at what it is doing. The pressure put upon this child by the schools and (possibly) the parents, who don't know what the REAL priorities in life are anyways made her give up the WILL to live. This child was lead down the path of illusory life-goals, handed down and given the stamp of approval by the powers that be, and given to the schools (AKA robot factories) that pat you on the back and give you a gold star for being repeaters....and if you disagree with this, or FAIL this, you fail life.....and will live a sad, lonely, poor, meaningless life. As if it isn't already like that anyways.

Please, take this, and other things like the kids who are smoking pot and getting drunk younger and younger by the day, and developing terrible mental illnesses as a SLIGHT HINT, that the society you're working for, DOESN'T WORK and it's killing us.

Please, please, realize this.

Cue the personal insults...:rolleyes:

This is going to sound harsh but tough sh1t,if she can't hack the pressure of the junior cert then she was never really likely to make it anywhere in life. Who are you to say that schools are robot factories, if you have a modicum of intelligence and aplly yourself you will get by just fine. That are these real priorities you speak off ,only the exceptionally stupid or gifted can say that a proper education is not a real priority. I'm sorry the girl died but there must have been some underlying mental illness that made her throw herself in front of the train.

So Glad

oneeyedsnake wrote:

This is going to sound harsh but tough sh1t,if she can't hack the pressure of the junior cert then she was never really likely to make it anywhere in life. Who are you to say that schools are robot factories, if you have a modicum of intelligence and aplly yourself you will get by just fine. That are these real priorities you speak off ,only the exceptionally stupid or gifted can say that a proper education is not a real priority. I'm sorry the girl died but there must have been some underlying mental illness that made her throw herself in front of the train.

Wow. That has to be the most heartless thing I have ever heard.

Well done, you are official the spawn of Satan.

Varkov

So Glad wrote:

Wow. That has to be the most heartless thing I have ever heard.

Well done, you are official the spawn of Satan.

Well, we could say you are an over idealistic out of the loop hippy.

But we wont, t'is opinions n all that.

So Glad

No, because you're 100% right!

Nothing wrong with hippie idealogies!

bonkey

Wishbone Ash wrote:

My God, it was gloomy when you look back. I don't think we realised how bad it was at the time!

We were probably too busy being angsty teenagers.

SnkPlissken

I dont know if its down to pressure, but the kids are boozing like never before, sure all the kids out my way are going to have liver and kidney diseases by the time they are 20, But they are never kept in check by their parents, The cops actually do a great job, they try their very best. But I have never seen a parent do anything to stop it. They squeeze them out and then let them run wild.


But then again, it is the state who place so much importance on these kids at a young age, why do they have to decide their future when they are 17 with some silly little exam ?

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/tragedy-as-exam-girl-loses-life-on-rail-line-1077756.html

She got 10 honours, As and Bs, I think we can say it wasn't suicide

Snake747

It doesnt matter how many honors you have, it doesnt mean you will be happy ?!

Snake747

Snake747 wrote:

It doesnt matter how many honors you have, it doesnt mean you will be happy ?!

It doesn't mean you'll jump in front of a train either

Snake747

bluewolf wrote:

It doesn't mean you'll jump in front of a train either

That made no sense !

mike65

Perhaps she thought she'd be happier and saw she was'nt and had one of those "is that all there is?" moments that drunks are prone to at 3 am. Or maybe anything less than 10 As was considered failure after the work put in.

Mike.

humanji

bluewolf wrote:

It doesn't mean you'll jump in front of a train either

What if she was really gearing up to get full A's? If her parents wanted to strive for a perfect grade and she didn't get it, she might feel like she really let them down, and she couldn't deal with it.

Alright, fair points. Just the way everyone was going on, I was expecting to see she'd failed most of the subjects or something.