mclaren banned

jay_haych

McLaren have reportedly been excluded from the 2007 and 2008 Formula One World Championships.


The Woking team, who faced the World Motor Sport Council for the second time in Paris today after new evidence came to light, were found guilty of using Ferrari's information in this year's Championship.


And the punishment is their exclusion from this year and next year's World Championships.

Kintarō Hattori

Wow- that's unusually harsh for the FIA, though well deserved.

arch_stanton

If Alonso's evidence/emails were decisive in McLaren being found guilty he had better head for the hills of Asturias before the english media lynch him

jay_haych

alonso didnt turn up the damning emails involved seemed to come from pedro de la rosa

Victor McDade

Whatever it takes to help ferrari "win" the championship...

jay_haych

update:

Not banned YET


According to reports on the BBC, the FIA's World Motor Sport Council has proposed that McLaren are excluded from the 2007 and 2008 World Championships.


However, the corporation claims that the exact nature of the punishment which will be meted out is still being discussed.


As such, Lewis Hamilton's World Championship bid may yet be rekindled, with McLaren expelled from the Constructors' Championship but both Alonso and Hamilton permitted to compete for the Drivers' title.


The FIA has confirmed that a definitive verdict is now imminent.....

more to follow

thegoth

If they used Ferrari data to improve their can then the drivers had a faster/more reliable car then they would otherwise would have had. Drivers need to be docked points as well as they benefited from this data as much as the team did

thegoth

If this is true http://www.planet-f1.com/story/0,18954,3213_2725404,00.html then it makes all senior management at McLaren out to be pure liars and also proves that Mike Coughlin is a liar in what he says here http://www.planet-f1.com/story/0,18954,3213_2725983,00.html

If above is true, drivers and team should be banned

Ghost Train

I think the fia back in july said a mclaren ban for 07/08 could be dished out, if new evidence emerged, so if they are found guilty it could be their punishment

I would guess, being excluded from the championship just means that they score no (constructer)points and win no money, but they still race and compete for the drivers championship.

MrJoeSoap

Wonder how this affects a bet on Lewis Hamilton to be World Champion...

thegoth

McLaren banned from 2007 championship. $100 fine. http://www.planet-f1.com/story/0,18954,3213_2726904,00.html

Drivers should have been docked points in my opinion as the car would have gained some speed from the ferrari data, therefore illegally bebefiting Lewis and Alonso IMHO

Mezcita

Update: McLaren stripped of all constructor points and thrown out of this year's constructor championship. Fined loads of money too.

Hamilton and Alonso not affected. Allowed to continue without a points deduction.

thegoth

When you think about it, this fine is really $150 million

$100 million fine + $50 million loss in prize money for winning the constructors which they were all but certain to do.

$150million has to seriously hurt any team. Its AT LEAST 1.5 years budget for McLaren

arch_stanton

Even by F1 standards that's a s**t load of money.

It doesn't make sense that the team gets docked points and not the drivers. Any advantage unfairly gained by the team equally applies to the drivers

joe316

doesnt that mean they ll also have the smallest garage in the pitlane next year as well?

Ghost Train

I think this is about right. Allows ferrari to say they got justice, won't effect McLarens championship next year (ie better than two year ban) and won't effect a very competitive drivers championship.

Wonder will all involved will now agree that this is the end of it and not appeal the decision.

Will be a win for the fia if this is the end of it... not great for McLaren but theyre still looking good for the drivers championship

thegoth

My Prediction now is:

Alonso to leave McLaren after being brought back to planet reality by a rookie. Maybe he is not as good as people thought or himself thought he was after all. Maybe he just had two good years against a Fisi past his best. Strong evedence to suggest this. Trulli kicked his ass for half 2004. Wouldn't surprise me if Alonso leaked the e mails to FIA himself to get out of McLaren as Lewis will only be stronger next year.

Alonso not to win world championship as McLaren will now "Unoffically" back Lewis 100%.

Alonso to join Renault or Toyota. Hard to say which. Reanult will have a better car than Toyota next year, but Toyota pay ALOT better.

I always said Alonso had not proved himself as a driver. Dont get me wrong, neither has Lewis. All Alonso really did was have two good years against someone who WAS a top drawer driver in his prime (Fisi)

Ghost Train

Sky news just said they wont get constructers points next year either, which as far as I've read else where ain't true.

From itv website

McLaren will also have to present its 2008 car for examination by the FIA before the start of next season.


“The WMSC will receive a full technical report on the 2008 McLaren car and will take a decision at its December 2007 meeting as to what sanction, if any, will be imposed on the team for the 2008 season,” read the statement.

justsomebloke

well if they have to present next years car to be tested for Ferrari parts obviously they are being allowed to enter a car, they just won't be able to win any constructors points. cause if they were completely out of next years comp there would be no reason for them to build a car

Ghost Train

thegoth wrote:

When you think about it, this fine is really $150 million

$100 million fine + $50 million loss in prize money for winning the constructors which they were all but certain to do.

$150million has to seriously hurt any team. Its AT LEAST 1.5 years budget for McLaren

No the fine is 100million less the prize money they would have got for points they would have won.

"Furthermore, the team will pay a fine equal to 100 million dollar, less the FOM income lost as a result of the points deduction...

So its 100million - 50million(or whatever amount it is) for winning constructers championship

Also this link estimates their budget at $400 million, still a large % of there budget though
http://thef1blog.wordpress.com/2006/06/16/mclaren-is-f1s-biggest-spender/

thegoth

Your right. WOW 400 Million. I am shocked. Was sure it was 100 million. WOW yet again

bonkey

Its not even a fine that they have to pay. Its a fine being taken out of the TV monies they would have received.

As for the drivers...they only reason they didn't get docked points is because they were granted immunity in exchange for cooperation. Whether thats fair or not isn't the issue...its the deal that was worked out in advance.

thegoth

Its still $100 million dollars that McLaren would likely have budgeted for. They will have to pay about $50 million out of their own funds as they would have got about $50 million from TV revenue

Fine = $100m
-TV Revenues due $50
_______
Balance of fine owed by Mclaren $50

Bottom line is that at the end of the year, McLaren will have $100 million dollars less in their bank account because of todays verdict than they would have had if this scandal had never taken place

Oblomov

Pause and get back to the facts:

However, it should be noted that the exchange reported by The Dail Mail is remarkably similiar to the account which appeared last week in the Gazzetta dello Sport. Since then, the journalist, Pino Allievi, has admitted to inventing the quotes.

"I made a free interpretation of what might have been said in the email," he later revealed.


Ron Dennis on the McLaren site states:

“The most important thing is that we will be going motor racing this weekend, the rest of the season and every season. This means that our drivers can continue to compete for the World Championship. However having been at the hearing today I do not accept that we deserved to be penalised in this way.”

“Today’s evidence given to the FIA by our drivers, engineers and staff clearly demonstrated that we did not use any leaked information to gain a competitive advantage.”

“Much has been made in the press and at the hearing today of emails and text messages to and from our drivers. The World Motorsport Council received statements from Fernando Alonso, Lewis Hamilton and Pedro de la Rosa stating categorically that no Ferrari information had been used by McLaren and that they had not passed any confidential data to the team.”

“The entire engineering team in excess of 140 people provided statements to the FIA affirming that they had never received or used the Ferrari information.”

“We have never denied that the information from Ferrari was in the personal possession of one of our employees at his home. The issue is: was this information used by McLaren? This is not the case and has not been proven today.”

“We are also continually asked if McLaren didn’t use the information, what was the reason for Stepney and Coughlan collecting all this data about Ferrari? We can only speculate as neither Coughlan nor Stepney gave evidence at today’s hearing, but we do know that they were both seeking employment with other teams, as already confirmed by both Honda and Toyota.”

“There will be no issue for the 2008 season as we have not at any stage used any intellectual property of any other team.”

“We have got the best drivers and the best car and we intend to win the World Championship.”


The possible appeal will be in consideration of the FIA judgement published on Friday

The rest is conjecture, all the 2008 McLaren race cars will be inspected for possible intellectual copyright infringement.

I cannot think of a better way of Ferrari finding out exactly what McLaren are doing next season. The continued and hollow accusations from Ferrari forget their actions of creepi9ng into the McLaren garage to check on the opposition and the new suspension links.

The Industrial espionage has been a consistent factor within F1 from time immemorial, a fact underlined by both Stirling Moss and Eddie Jordan.

To infer that Ferrari are the innocent party in this farrago is to extend naivety to unbelievable lenghts. Given their past history of histrionics and the highly placed ex-Ferrari directors within the FIA no judgement can be considered impartial, fair and equitable.

This can be seen as revenge for the FIA against Mercedes trying to break away from the FIA and only Ferrari signing to remain with the present system.

thegoth

With respect, if you want to stick to facts please state facts.

A statement from McLaren is not a fact.

The fact is that Ron Dennis has been proven to be a liar as he stated that no other McLaren employees had access to Ferrari data and that Ferrari data was not used by ANY Mclaren employee. He said that Mike Coughlins actions were that of on man. This is totally incorrect. At least, chief designer Paddy Lowe and McLaren CEO Martin Whitmarsh's used Ferrari data in order to look at Ferraris floor design, rear wing design, and a technique to lower the floor of the car. See http://www.planet-f1.com/story/0,18954,3213_2725983,00.html

Its also very likely that Mclaren engineers with at least drivers Alonso and De La Rosa used Ferrari tyre data to try and get the McLaren to use its tyres better. This is almost certainly true http://www.planet-f1.com/story/0,18954,3213_2725404,00.html

EvilMonkey

Oblomov wrote:

Pause and get back to the facts

We don't know the facts or reasoning behind the FIAs judgment yet thay will be released tomorrow.

And it said the full reasons for the verdict will be issued tomorrow (Friday).

Oblomov

The fact is that Ron Dennis has been proven to be a liar

not proven, conjecture, again.

He said that Mike Coughlins actions were that of on man. This is totally incorrect.

Not proven, conjecture and false assumption

At least, chief designer Paddy Lowe and McLaren CEO Martin Whitmarsh's used Ferrari data in order to look at Ferraris floor design,

Not proven, your own totally false premis, you really must remain focused on reality. The use of the wording' at least ', proves you are not even sure of your facts.

Its also very likely that Mclaren engineers with at least drivers Alonso and De La Rosa used Ferrari tyre data to try and get the McLaren to use its tyres better. This is almost certainly true

Almost certainly true could also mean almost certainly not true.

OH, please be cosistent, your post is full of conjecture and assumptions and, most important, Ferrari quotes, relating to the tyre testing complaint.

If you ever get the chance to visit McLaren, it is a state of the art research and development establishment, visitors are asked to wear wrist watch covers to avoid any accidental damage as you walk around the labs... car workshops to anyone else...

The rumours and whispers, the tactics and amount of disinformation, the imagination of some reporters is as divorced from the truth as Ferrari ever admitting their part in the whole scheme of things.

McLaren run as a superb development establishment, the new complex, the overall ethos set new standards within the F1 world. Ferrari recognise this and are determined to use any tactics possible to undermine and cancel any posible advantage gained by McLaren.

Ask yourself one simple question, Ferrari have employed the, seemingly, number one driver from McLaren, and he is being beaten by the resident second string driver.

Who gained the advantage?


At least it stopped them pursuing the world champion.

Oblomov

Evil Monkey,

Why you not read all of my contribution


The possible appeal will be in consideration of the FIA judgement published on Friday

thegoth

Oblomov,

Please read this article.

http://www.planet-f1.com/story/0,18954,3213_2725983,00.html

I already provided it as I reference to backup my views and facts.

When you said to me in responce to my statement "At least, chief designer Paddy Lowe and McLaren CEO Martin Whitmarsh's used Ferrari data in order to look at Ferraris floor design",

"Not proven, your own totally false premis, you really must remain focused on reality", your actually wrong. I was quoting from from a statement made by Coughlan himself, which can be read in full at the above link.

You should have read my references before before accusing me of making things up on my "own totally false premis"

Everything I posted as fact was quoted from Coughlan. Maybe I should not have treated it has hard fact until the FIA makes its judgement public today but I most certainly did not make it up

stakey

Fair enough, McLaren have been caught and to a degree they're guilty. But we're talking about a sport here where every team spies on each other, where every bit of information that can be obtained is obtained. Do people really think that Ferrari are innocent of never spying/attempting to spy on other teams... pfff please, give me a break. Perhaps the only thing McLaren are guilty of is getting caught...

Ghost Train

heres a link to the fia judgement

http://www.fia.com/resources/documents/17844641__WMSC_Decision_130907.pdf

8.8 In light of the evidence now before it, the WMSC does not accept that the only
actions of McLaren deserving censure were those of Coughlan. While this
situation might have originated with the actions of a single rogue McLaren
employee acting on his own and without McLaren’s knowledge or consent,
evidence is now available which, when taken in its full context, makes clear that:
- Coughlan had more information than previously appreciated and was
receiving information in a systematic manner over a period of months;
- the information has been disseminated, at least to some degree (e.g. to Mr. de
la Rosa and Mr. Alonso), within the McLaren team;
- the information being disseminated within the McLaren team included not
only highly sensitive technical information but also secret information
regarding Ferrari’s sporting strategy;
- Mr de la Rosa, in the performance of his functions at McLaren, requested and
received secret Ferrari information from a source which he knew to be
illegitimate and expressly stated that the purpose of his request was to run
tests in the simulator;
- the secret information in question was shared with Mr. Alonso;
- there was a clear intention on the part of a number of McLaren personnel to
use some of the Ferrari confidential information in its own testing. If this was
not in fact carried into effect it was only because there were technical reasons
not to do so;
- Coughlan’s role within McLaren (as now understood by the WMSC) put him
in a position in which his knowledge of the secret Ferrari information would
have influenced him in the performance of his duties.

v10

From f1-live.com:
An FIA press release on Friday said: "The e-mails show unequivocally that both Mr. Alonso and Mr. de la Rosa received confidential Ferrari information via Coughlan; that both drivers knew that this information was confidential Ferrari information and that both knew that the information was being received by Coughlan from Stepney."

In one exchange between the two De La Rosa asks Coughlan, in a clear reference to Ferrari's all-red livery: "Hi Mike, do you know the Red Car's weight distribution? It would be important for us to know so that we could try it in the simulator. Thanks in advance, Pedro."

De La Rosa confirmed to the FIA that Coughlan sent him the required information via test message and he then forwarded it on to Alonso by email.

Similar exchanges between the three men took place regarding aerodynamics, tyre gas, braking systems and stopping strategy.

In addition the FIA has revealed the full amount of correspondence between Coughlan and Stepney, some of it taking place before the dossier of information was found by Italian police at Coughlan's house.

The statement reads: "The Italian police have identified logs which show 23 e-mails passed between Coughlan and Stepney between 1 March and 14 April 2007."

In total, at least 288 SMS messages and 35 telephone calls appear to have passed between Stepney and Coughlan between 11 March and 3 July 2007.

..

To be honest, based on this info, I think Alonso should also have been disqualified and Pedro should be banned from further testing this year. Ron should also admit his teams guilt and move on from this whole thing.

steviec

stakey wrote:

Fair enough, McLaren have been caught and to a degree they're guilty. But we're talking about a sport here where every team spies on each other, where every bit of information that can be obtained is obtained. Do people really think that Ferrari are innocent of never spying/attempting to spy on other teams... pfff please, give me a break. Perhaps the only thing McLaren are guilty of is getting caught...

It's funny how the defence has changed from 'they didn't do it' to 'but everyone else does it!' after they got caught red handed.

No other team has been found guilty of doing what McLaren - the only case that comes close is the engineers at Toyota who stole Ferrari data a couple of years ago and do you know where they are? They're in jail right now. Unlike McLaren, Toyota were not proven to have protected the men or knowingly used their data and the team immediately sacked them as soon as the knowledge became known.

In light of the evidence, I think McLaren have gotten off very, very lightly. And particularly Fernando Alonso, who has now been openly proven of being personally guilty of knowing about and using the data to improve performance, yet he's allowed compete for the world championship. If he wins, it could be one of the darkest years in the history of the sport.

At least there's no evidence Hamilton knew of the industrial espionage and cheating, even though he benefitted from it, so I just hope he wins the title now so there can be some remote integrity left in the sport.

Jonny Arson

I was sceptical over the FIA decision last night until the content of those emails surfaced. I still personally believe the FIA love Ferrari and should marry each other but they have called the McLaren punishment spot on (aside from the scrutiny of 2008 McLaren car which will throw up many technical complexities)

also, I agree with steviec. if Alonso wins this years title it will tarnish this season's championship and what is left of F1's credibilty even further as he is a proven cheat. Alonso should be deducted his 2007 points, banned for races and fined, the same for de la Rosa.

mike65

I don't know how Alonso could retain his points in the circumstances. Of course someone will say stitch-up cos he's Spanish and FIA president is British.

thegoth

Oblomov,

Maybe you want to apologise for some of the things you said in you post to me at 00:10 today, Looks like my views were not based on "my own totally false premis" and were not based on "conjecture and assumptions"

Everything I said in that post was 100% correct.

Steveic, I agree totally. Alonso should be kicked out of this years championship. I'm not Lewis's biggest fan, but there is no evedence against him at all.

I have said here in the past that I believed that MS and Alonso have a very similar mentality, i.e win at all costs. This is just as bad as what Michael did to JV, Damon Hill, or the Monaco incident last year. I wonder will the british media make such a big deal over Alonso in this ? If anything this is worse as it was plainly deliberate cheating over a peroid of time

Ghost Train

Doesn't really do Alonsos reputation much good, but really given how different the ferrari and mclaren cars must be, i can't imagine setup info would be all that useful, other than giving mclaren a very rough idea of the handeling characteristics of the ferrari.

Have read/heard(setanta commentry) rumours that it was Ron Dennis who brought the existance of the emails to the fia's attention after Alonso threatened to use them to get out of his contract.

thegoth

Yeah, I'd say it was either Alonso directly, or indirectly by forcing Ron Dennis. I would be SHOCKED to see Alonso in a McLaren next year. I wonder has Heidfield signed for BMW for the next few years? If not, It will be Heidfield in a McLaren next year

On another note. I honestly really did believe Ron Dennis when he said that no one else in McLaren had or used Ferrari data. It was a rogue employee. He should win an Oscar. His credability is shod. I fell for it hook line a sinker. I actually felt really sorry for him.

One the other hand, I sippose he had no choice but lie. He was dammed if he did, and only dammed if his lies for found out. Sad for him they were.

Wouldn't be surprised if Vodafone left the team. Ouch

v10

I'm after reading the 14 page statement from the FIA and I must say I'm shocked that McLaren have not been completely excluded from this year’s championship. Its clear that they have had a competitive advantage over Ferrari this year.

Read it HERE

thegoth

Oh, and let me go on the record here as saying that I think Lewis definitly has the same mentality as MS, i.e win at all costs. I'd say his "win at all costs" is even stringer than Alonso and maybe MS.

For a rookie to hold up his double world champion team mate, and at the same time disobey team orders from the man and company who supported him since he was 10 years old is beyond. Why did he do this? To win, at any cost.

Lewis could have been involved in this, but his name just not mentioned in any email, so no evedence ...., but I'm not going there. I'm not say he had anything to do with it. What I am saying is that if he had a chance, he would I think he would have, without a second though.

It may well be that De La Rosa and Alonso wanted to keep Lewis out of the picture as they could have formed their own "Spanish Click" ?

Could be that McLaren didn't want to involve Lewis as he didn't have enough F1 experience to make proper judgements of the data or that they felt Lewis had enough on his plate adjusting to F1 ?

Mark my words, before Lewis retires from F1, he will have been involves in SEVERAL, controlversional incidents, such as MS, with Hill, JV, and monaceo last year. Senna and Prost in Japan, and Alonso using Ferrari data. Why do I say this ? Its in his DNA to win at all costs

donspeekinglesh

steviec wrote:

No other team has been found guilty of doing what McLaren - the only case that comes close is the engineers at Toyota who stole Ferrari data a couple of years ago and do you know where they are? They're in jail right now. Unlike McLaren, Toyota were not proven to have protected the men or knowingly used their data and the team immediately sacked them as soon as the knowledge became known.

They're not in jail - they got suspended sentences. Several former Toyota senior employees are facing criminal charges over it - they knew full well what was going on. And it's a disgrace the FIA chose not to get involved then, but chose to get involved now. Their excuse that they could only act on a complaint is nonsense - McLaren were charged with (and rightly found guilty of) bringing the sport into disrepute - a charge that the FIA throws around whenever someone disagrees with them. No need for a complaint from a rival team.