Tourney FT Situation

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

5starpool

5starpool wrote:

5. If I call and money goes in on the non A/K flop, then as well as the times I am behind, I catch the times where he shoves with a hand I beat. If the two of us get to the flop, there will be ~33k in the middle, so he shoves no matter what he has at this point. Maybe this point is wrong though, but this is a (flawed?) concept that I am using more lately as a bluff catcher.

Does anyone think this has any merit? If I push preflop, sometime I increase my stack by 1/3, mostly I lose when called, sometimes I win when called. If I call, he is almost certain to push any flop. If A or K, then I was either behind anyhow, or he mostly successfuly bluffs me with a worse holding. If Q high, I prob call at least 50%. If <J high flop, I call almost all of the time, catching him with the hands the would have folded preflop while losing to the hands I would have lost to preflop (plus the danger of a lower set etc, but c'est la vie).

RoundTower

I think your range for John is too tight for a "standard enough range". What would he do with 55? KQ? AT?

mrflash

You mention his range, but what do you reckon would he consider your range to repop with?
and i would shove if i think this guy folds anything below top two pairs, ak
i would also shove if i think this guy has a really tight range on me when i reraise.
the worst move of all is flat call. you put the guy on a range of pairs from 77+ and ak, so if you only call, and any three cards hit the deck from 7 to ace excluding a jack, then you are in no mans land because he might have a set or hit a higher pair and you have no clue where you are.
When you get shorthanded in a tournament, its not about getting value out of a pot, its about not making mistakes, and you have already made one in this pot by flat calling.
you have only two choices, shove or fold.

i would personally shove with jj at this stage of a tourney against almost every player i know.

Hitman Actual

5starpool wrote:

Does anyone think this has any merit? If I push preflop, sometime I increase my stack by 1/3, mostly I lose when called, sometimes I win when called. If I call, he is almost certain to push any flop. If A or K, then I was either behind anyhow, or he mostly successfuly bluffs me with a worse holding. If Q high, I prob call at least 50%. If <J high flop, I call almost all of the time, catching him with the hands the would have folded preflop while losing to the hands I would have lost to preflop (plus the danger of a lower set etc, but c'est la vie).

Are you always folding when an A or K falls? This happens like 41% of the time. Q+ flops are something like 55% (off the top of my head). I think in this case, he has to auto-push on the flop a lot of lesser hands than JJ for a call-call to be profitable, which goes back to the ranges issue of pre-flop push/fold. It looks to me like it should be less profitable than a push preflop, but you'd have to run numbers to be sure. (I can have a look at them in work next week if you want! )

This is an interesting hand, I was sure it was an easy push pre-flop until I ran the numbers (and I normally have a good sense of these). Against a player with a tight enough range, folding preflop definitely looks correct. But it also looks like JJ is exactly the hand which is hardest play here.

5starpool

lenny_leonard wrote:

Are you always folding when an A or K falls? This happens like 41% of the time. Q+ flops are something like 55% (off the top of my head). I think in this case, he has to auto-push on the flop a lot of lesser hands than JJ for a call-call to be profitable, which goes back to the ranges issue of pre-flop push/fold. It looks to me like it should be less profitable than a push preflop, but you'd have to run numbers to be sure. (I can have a look at them in work next week if you want! )

This is an interesting hand, I was sure it was an easy push pre-flop until I ran the numbers (and I normally have a good sense of these). Against a player with a tight enough range, folding preflop definitely looks correct. But it also looks like JJ is exactly the hand which is hardest play here.

I think it is one of those 'evaluate' decisions if a K or A comes on the flop, and I suppose in the heat of it, with the pot size the way it is, I probably make a call despite my best intentions. I agree though that calling is probably not the optimal play in hindsight, but meh. In case anyone cares, here are the results.

As I said, I called on the flop, they both had AK, and my JJ held up, but as mentioned, the results aren't particularly important for this discussion.

Mellor

You pretty much got best case there Dom, both having AK, most of the people here probably also knew the result during the discussion as Mark had posted it elsewhere, bad beat or tourney dicussion threads i think. But as you said its not important.
I still think it was push or fold, with hindsight and ICM calcs its a fold to me, but heads up ICM calcs are tricky enough in you head at a table, 5 handed impossible.

it wouldn't be too hard to run cEV for JJ vrs AK comparing "AIPF" and "calling a third of stack then push/fold on a AK/non-AK flop"
I might run it in a while. Or somebody else might if they are nice.

5starpool

Mellor wrote:

You pretty much got best case there Dom, both having AK, most of the people here probably also knew the result during the discussion as Mark had posted it elsewhere, bad beat or tourney dicussion threads i think. But as you said its not important.
I still think it was push or fold, with hindsight and ICM calcs its a fold to me, but heads up ICM calcs are tricky enough in you head at a table, 5 handed impossible.

it wouldn't be too hard to run cEV for JJ vrs AK comparing "AIPF" and "calling a third of stack then push/fold on a AK/non-AK flop"
I might run it in a while. Or somebody else might if they are nice.

When I called initially it was not for 1/3 of my stack preflop, it was for around 1/5. The all in underraise made it 1/3.

Mellor

Sorry, I must of had positions mixed up in my head.

Ace2007

i thought that we'd never get the results dom...

Tar.Aldarion

All in or fold pf for me, after the call.
I also think only a bad player shoves after the flop with a hand that you beat.

5starpool

Tar.Aldarion wrote:

All in or fold pf for me, after the call.
I also think only a bad player shoves after the flop with a hand that you beat.

So you never shove this flop if you hold AK/99 for example?

Tar.Aldarion

Well, perhaps i would, it depends who I'm playing. If somebody calls a third of their stack pf like this and I know them to be good, I would not shove into them with ak anyway.
If he shoves with those hands he will be called by a hand that beats him.
It is possible he would do it with 99 etc
Two spades also, it depends on what I think of the guy. I generally would not shove with ace high if I were him.

AKQJ10

the thing about it was im fairly sure the blinds were 1500/3000 and he made it 13k UTG. john had the goods everytime he raised me. he wasnt putting in that much utg <1010, AQ. at the time i thought it was really obvious from his opening raise he had a big hand. when you called i presumed you were just looking to flop a set with a mid pair. I think the call is fine as apart from you and john no one else is a threat yet unless they double through. when my all in was an under-raise and he tried to go allin, i would have folded then maybe as he is going to push any flop. once you call you've decided your calling his push. say he had made it 12k and you still called and i pushed, then he shoved are you still callling. i think its effectively the same decision your facing when the under raise comes back to you.