What is wrong with Ireland?

ironingbored

The team I'd pick:

1: Hayes
2: Flannery
3: Horan
4: O'Connell
5: O'Kelly
6: Quinlan
7: Wallace
8: Leamy
9: Boss
10: O'Gara(solely because Wallace would be no better due to lack of experience)
11: Trimble
12: O'Driscoll(c)
13: Dempsey
14: Duffy
15: Murphy[/QUOTE]


You cannot mean this. Dempsey at 13? Duffy? Forwards okay but that is a terrible back line selection. You have to go hickey - darcy - bod - horgan - murphy

fatboypee

SpAcEd OuT wrote:

if we want to beat the french the only way we are going to do that is in our backline. If we play a forward charlie up game we will lose. We need quick cleared rucks for quick ball to the backline then we pray the backs play the way we know they can.

Could not agree more. My point remains, you can only safely run a backline play (with the backs we currently have at least) from within a situation of secured ball, within a territiorial zone, i.e. over the half-way.

If the possession / protection isn't being secured up-front, or territiory is not in our favour then it is pure MADNESS to try and stick to a backline policy. This is proven in the last two matches.

Backline plays in the last two matches were suicidally executed from places only the foolish or arrogant would attempt them.

Do that against France on Saturday and we'll be out of our misery quick-smart.

FBP.

moe_sizlak

o drischoll needs to be replaced as captain , he,s not a leader , he,s not raw enough , he,s not manly enough , hes a posh boy so he,s not rough enough
he sounds more like a PR guru in post match interviews with spin that would put alastair campbell in the shade
while o conell is no ciaran fitzgerald , at least he,s earthy enough to inspire some inspiration , wheres our ******* pride

nacho libre

People are still not getting it. This team beat second string southern hemisphere opposition last November and suddenly they were being touted as World Cup winners. Granted this team is better than the last two performances but they were never good enough to win the World Cup. The forwards don't possess the natural strength of other sides in our group. They have the honed gym physiques but as we saw against Georgia there is no substitute for natural strength and raw power up front.
The Argentine and French forwards will be far stronger as well. So, while it's interesting to talk about combinations in the backline it's really rendered redunant if the forwards can't provide the platform for the back line. That is where the mistakes then start occuring in the backline because they are under huge pressure trying to create something on the back foot.

fatboypee

nacho libre wrote:

So, while it's interesting to talk about combinations in the backline it's really rendered redunant if the forwards can't provide the platform for the back line. That is where the mistakes then start occuring in the backline because they are under huge pressure trying to create something on the back foot.

See my posts. I got it...;) ...
its not the forwards fault all in tho as it seems policy to run the back line plays from anywhere. Granted forwards are not doing their jobs, but theres no gameplan, no kicking to touch, not pushing territory, no communication.

The biggest single issue I have however is Ball-away from the back of rucks or scrums, sad to say it but its been coming a while, Stringer always playing the ref in terms of looking for advantage. never seems to get the ball away anywhere near fast enough and got caught time out of number last night.

Made me laugh when he was interviewed on TV3, not a notion of contrition.. not one..

FBP.

SpAcEd OuT

obl wrote:

The team needs a large over haul, in my opinion. That and a thorough kick up the arse. We need to get back to basics and grind out a win against France, none of your fancy stuff.

The team I'd pick:

1: Hayes
2: Flannery
3: Horan
4: O'Connell
5: O'Kelly
6: Quinlan
7: Wallace
8: Leamy
9: Boss
10: O'Gara(solely because Wallace would be no better due to lack of experience)
11: Trimble
12: O'Driscoll(c)
13: Dempsey
14: Duffy
15: Murphy

Are you serious?
Dempsey in the centre, Duffy and Malcom O'Kelly starting?? 4 players are out of their normal positions

If eddie put that team out against France I would expect his resignation to follow.

Stev_o

Iv been thinking alot and the conclusion iv come up with is this.
Ireland havent played well for 6 months we can all agree with that

Leinster and Munster havent either.

We dominated the Heineken Cup last year with our provinces sides and that lead to some very good performances from the Irish side later on.

Now if you can recall what happened this year. Leinster backs were torn apart by Wasps.

And two real set backs for Munster was loosing to Leicester at home and obviously Scarlets

So basically the province that provides the bulk of forwards were shown to be not invincible like we thought and when a pack decided to take them up front they could win which i think put a huge dent in their confidence

Wasps proved that the Leinster backline could be controlled and put away for good.

Now discuss ^^

razorblunt

The Scarlets game was a one off in my opinion, the last Scarlets try that put them out of sight had a huge block involving one of the Munster backs coming across to make the tackle.

I think Munster will beat Wasps home and away and possibly the same with the Scarlets.

In fairness regarding Leinster if the forwards don't put down a platform the backs will always struggle, this year they should have it sorted.

[Jackass]

O'Sullivan needs to freshin it up a bit and make changes. Below I've made 5 changes not including a captain change, although it's a bit late in the game for that, it should have been done origionally, but the frame of the team remains around our strongest aspects, but it's just throwing in a bit more mobility in the forwards and better set piece with Flannery and more combatative back row and 3 changes in the backs for to be a bit more dynamic and unpredictable, particularly on the wings and better supply to the backs from scrum half.

1. Horan
2. Flannery
3. Hayes
4. O'Callaghan
5. O'Connell (Captain)
6. Wallace
7. Gleeson (how is he not in squad??? - Using current squad Best goes in)
8. Leamy
9. Reddan
10. O'Gara
11. Carney (He's our wild card, let's see what he can do)
12. D'Arcy
13. O'Driscoll
14. Murphy (Horgan on the bench, didn't look fit)
15. Dempsey

It's hardly a major gamble of a team but Murphy has an individual spark better than anyone in the squad with the exception of O'Driscoll and D'Arcy when he's on formvand if he can turn it on like he did against Wales this season we've a whole new outlet that Horgan can't give us at the moment.

Carney is a class player with hugh experience.....in league...but now's the time for him to step up. From what we've seen he is a great player, but Steddie Eddie needs to step out of the box and give him an oppertunity to play. He's not in the squad to keep the other lads company. Where would Jason Robinson be now if he was never given his oppertunity in a big game?

It also helps to have the likes of Hickie and Horgan as back up and are great players to come off your bench to change things around mid-match....if you're willing to use them....

pretty-in-pink

I'm still waiting for us to start playing......

White Knight

I think we all know whats wrong and you are just too afraid to say it ...

It is clearly the Jersey's

The only reasonable explanation ... I think the lads circulation is being affected. Coupled that without the inspiration of the "proper" shade of green. Need I say anymore ... :rolleyes:

EdgarAllenPoo

White Knight wrote:

I think we all know whats wrong and you are just too afraid to say it ...

It is clearly the Jersey's

The only reasonable explanation ... I think the lads circulation is being affected. Coupled that without the inspiration of the "proper" shade of green. Need I say anymore ... :rolleyes:

I said that last night, if it wasn't for the jerseys we'd be All Black beaters;)


Seriously though the IRFU made a balls up in giving EOS an extentions before the WC. The only reason I can think that they did this is if we lose who would they get to replace him?

One other thing, seeing as EOS is the Bertie Ahern of rugby, how badly would we have to play/lose before he decided to nut up and resign?

skelliser

carney has to play, at least come on at some stage

razorblunt

As for a replacement for EOS, Eddie Jones is moving to England in search of jobs after the WC he would have been the perfect choice.

tolosenc

ironingbored wrote:

You cannot mean this. Dempsey at 13? Duffy? Forwards okay but that is a terrible back line selection. You have to go hickey - darcy - bod - horgan - murphy

Yeah, sorry, Dempsey and Duffy switched.

Hickie and D'arcy have been atrocious, and Horgan just isn't fit. There was a while when BO'D and D'arcy swithced the centre positions, giving BO'd a different angle from which to work.

EdgarAllenPoo

Here's a thought. If New Zealand do choke might Graham Henry be looking for a job and would Ireland want him?

zAbbo

GDM wrote:

Here's a thought. If New Zealand do choke might Graham Henry be looking for a job and would Ireland want him?

No way, *shudders at the thought*

EdgarAllenPoo

As annoying as he is he would do a better job than EOS. I'd love to see what he could get out of our forwards.


Bob Dylan doesn't fancy our chances in the WC:D

http://www.dylanmessaging.com/messages/UYME-R7E2-OGPN-ZZAC-XRY8?commentor-name=Ger+Martin&commentor-email=gerarddmartin%40yahoo.co.uk

wowy

Best out.

http://rte.ie/sport/rugby/worldcup2007/2007/0916/bestr.html

is_that_so

Finally a bit more honesty out of EOS. Not much hope for the rest of us if he can't figure it out.:rolleyes:
And a BBC blog with suggestions on the team, much of which has been said here.

EdgarAllenPoo

O'Sullivan has vowed not to change the expansive game he blames for his side's catalogue of mistakes since the World Cup began.

How can he blame it for their mistakes and not change it? That defies logic.

"It's much easier to sit back in the pocket and kick the ball up into the air or whack it into the corners and wait for the opposition to make mistakes.

Would that not be a good idea then?:rolleyes: Muppet

But we're trying to play a style of rugby which, when it works, is very successful and has served us well.

Not so far. Christ on a bike. Am I the only one who thinks he's lost his mind. It's bad enough playing the way Ireland have been but to say that that's a good thing and that it won't change is moronic.

Chucky the tree

pretty-in-pink wrote:

I'm still waiting for us to start playing......

Put your feet up and get comfortable, you'll be waiting awhile.

bugler

I really hope I'm wrong, but I get the feeling that this team with EOS at the helm has shot its bolt. No one genuinely seems to know what's wrong, and aside from rumblings about ROG's personal troubles affecting him I have a source that says there is no major turbulence in the squad.

EOS, for all his qualities (and he has many), isn't a creative or risk-taking coach capable of sparking great things. His refusal to countenance changes for games, when every other side has done so, is his most distinguishing characteristic as a coach. Go away with all this "we haven't got the depth" bollocks. There is no compelling reason Alan Quinlan and Brian Carney could not have featured in at least one of those two opening games. None. We'll never know if they would have made a difference, because EOS wouldn't take the chance.

EOS is a percentages coach. He's happy to win more than he loses, happy to beat the teams we 'should' beat, and never too disappointed when we lose to those 'better' than us. He's distrustful of change, the arch-conservative. He's always at least a game (and often more) behind when it comes to recognising players who need to be swapped.

Because of the type of coach we have, our team is stale. They're struggling to hit form, and struggling with trying too hard as some of the players panic and attempt to shake the team single-handedly from the malaise. I noted during the Namibia game that aside from the knock-ons, our back play was horrible stilted. Every move had an awful semi-coordinated stutter to it. Reverse passes were a yard behind the target. When it works (Trimble's try in the Autumn) it can look impressive. When it doesn't, it means you don't cross the gain-line.

There is no off-the-cuff brilliance. Do we not have the best centres in the world? One of the best backlines?

We have 4 more years of his reign to come. Regardless of what you think of the man, you need to admit that sometimes a coach has taken a team as far as they can go. There is a natural life to a regime. It shouldn't be artificially prolonged if the results and performances aren't there? Is his time up?

If you put your logical hat on, do you really think Ireland can get out of this group? And is that enough? Will a meek surrender to the ABs count as a success?

Time for Irish rugby to consider what it should be aiming for. Is this it?

Danie Gerber

It's a mistery..

This is near the same Irish team that did so well in the 6 nations, only they're better rested and better conditioned. So what's wrong?

IMO:

They've tried to force the game and tried to play expansive rugby. Why? Because they were told at every convenience that they're probably the best backline in the world and that they were playing inferior opposition. So one, 2, 3 mistakes, a few handling errors and all of a sudden that confidence start wavering.

What do they do? They force it even more, with less success. Now if you're Namibia or Georgia this is a great boost. All of a sudden you've a chance. They tackle harder, ruck better and generally lift their own game...

What should they have done? Settle back, get ROG to kick the corners. Take it up around the fringes with the forwards and wait for the oppo to make mistakes which they inevitably will. Do that for half an hour and you suck the life out of the Georgians, Namibians.

The way SA beat England. England was bad in fairness, but SA just kicked for position, took the 3 points whenever they got close, didn'tgive away any penalties and after a while the English started leaving gaps.

It's called Munster rugby and Ireland should play some of it..

jmayo

Heard very good summation, from a friend that works for one of the provinces, of the Irish setup under Eddie O'Sullivan:
"Form is temporary, selection is permanent"

The first team guys are assured of being picked no matter how cr** they play. Maybe the second string guys are not as good on paper or on the pitch, but why do we continue with the same setup even though it is not working.
What did Jordan Murphy do to EOS ?
Could Reddan form a partnership with Tesco boy, or is he out of the equation because they didn't go to school together?

There is absolutely no fire in the bellies, there is no one throwing their bodies around and it looks like they are just going through the motions.

Also the amount of spin & PR speak coming from Eddie and now the players is appalling. Stringer was talking "total sh**e" like a politican the other night.
EOS definetly hung around with Alastair Campbell too much while in NZ.
Maybe that is his future career.

raven136

noel mannion or mick quinn msaid on newstalk the other night that certain players know that eos just doesnt like the look of certain players and they know it.Take murphy and reddan,two total stars in england but they know that barring serious injury they wont even make the bench.Surely this has to affect players and morale.
Quinlan should come in and i would prefer to see murphy on the wings.But because eos has never brought the reserve players in in the past two years can we honestly expect them to make a big impact.

young lad sitting at home now with the x factor we all want to see and think ireland need.Luke Fitzgerald should be there,pity

dub_skav

First of all Eddie O'Sullivan is not up to the job, never was. He got lucky with a very good crop of players hungry for success. Now those players are older and less hungry, they need the coach to step in and get them back to winning ways. He is incapable of this. The fact that the IRFU renewed his contract shows just how clueless they are.

Players that just aren't performing:
Best, Horan, O'Connell, Leamy, Wallace, Stringer, D'Arcy, Hickie, Horgan.

Obviously all of those players can't be replaced at once, it would destroy the team. But, Flannery in, Best/Quinlan in for Leamy, Boss/Reddan in, Carney and Murphy in for Hickie and Horgan.
Possibly move B'OD to 12 and bring in Trimble.

Change is needed, fringe players with hunger need to freshen up the attitude.

Also, Eddie needs to realise that expansive rugby isn't our forte. We play kick the corners boring rugby with occasional flashes of brilliance to make the difference, the current plan of give it to D'Arcy and see what happens isn't really good enough return for a professional coach's wages.

bugler

dub_skav wrote:

Players that just aren't performing:
Best, Horan, O'Connell, Leamy, Wallace, Stringer, D'Arcy, Hickie, Horgan.

Obviously all of those players can't be replaced at once, it would destroy the team. But, Flannery in, Best/Quinlan in for Leamy, Boss/Reddan in, Carney and Murphy in for Hickie and Horgan.

RE: Leamy. He can't, and arguably doesn't deserve to be replaced. There is no other 8 in the squad unless you count Ferris, which I don't tbh. I think he's a 6.

Best or Quinlan couldn't be put at 8 for Argentina or France.

dub_skav

Easterby can play 8. A back row of Best, Quinlan and Easterby would certainly be aggressive enough to take on anybody. Might be the kick up the arse the lads need.
There is the possibility of them blowing up, but that's not much of a risk compared to the form of the incumbants.

Theres no competition for places, complacency.


EOS needs to show balls and drop the big name guys who arent performing....Paul OConnell being one.


The lineout isnt working and Malcolm O Kelly should come in to fix this (slate me all u want, quinlan more physical etc but we need the lineout platform.)

Flannerry will come in out of necessity.

Id be tempted to drop Leamy since he was so bad on Saturday but I wouldnt trust Ferris against the French.


Id bring Best in for Easterby.

Boss for Stringer.

Murphy for Dempsey.

Trimble for Horgan.


A shake up like that would wake people up, get them n their toes and realise u have to fight for your place.



Unfortunately steady Eddie will probably pick the same 15 again bar the change at hooker which is forced on him.

Linford

Cannot understand why some of you are calling for Dempsey to be replaced by Murphy. Murphy needs to come into the team alright, but in place of Horgan, who was woeful on Saturday, Dempsey was Ireland's best player (although this is more of a reflection on the Irish team than Dempsey's good play).

A few others are calling for the replacement of O'Callaghan, why? He has been the better of the two second rows, if either of them should go (and neither will) it should be O'Connell.

I am a big fan of Easterby, but he has to go and not just from the 15, from the 22, bring in Best and Quinlan.

Its a blessing that Best (the hooker) has broken his thumb...

I think the only players dropped will be; Easterby, Shane Horgan and the enforced replacement of Best.

Eddie won't have the guts to bring in Reddin for Stringer

Linford

Deleted User wrote:

Trimble for Horgan.

Trimble? He was pretty impressive against Namibia;)

marco_polo

Deleted User wrote:

Theres no competition for places, complacency.


EOS needs to show balls and drop the big name guys who arent performing....Paul OConnell being one.


The lineout isnt working and Malcolm O Kelly should come in to fix this (slate me all u want, quinlan more physical etc but we need the lineout platform.)

Flannerry will come in out of necessity.

Id be tempted to drop Leamy since he was so bad on Saturday but I wouldnt trust Ferris against the French.


Id bring Best in for Easterby.

Boss for Stringer.

Murphy for Dempsey.

Trimble for Horgan.


A shake up like that would wake people up, get them n their toes and realise u have to fight for your place.



Unfortunately steady Eddie will probably pick the same 15 again bar the change at hooker which is forced on him.

Broadly agree with you on most points. However I would take Quinlan over Mal myself as I think Mals best days are well behind him gone. Also Qunilan a good solid option in the lineout probably as effective as DOC is but not in as poor form generally.

Think Reddan is worth a shot too as I don't think Boss is up to it against a top team either to be honest. He still looks too ponderous for me and his passing was only barely than Stringer when he came on, for example look at that pass he put on ROGs bootlaces in the in goal area against Georgia at a critical moment, it was almost stringer-esque. Reddan is unproven at test level but I think it is a risk worth taking.

RonBonJovi

Trimble should be brought in but not for Horgan.Horgan was rusty after being out with an injury.Hickie hasn't performed for the last three matches at least.

I'd bring in Trimble for Hickie,Best for Easterby,Young for Horan and Boss for Stringer

zAbbo

Flannery for Best at 2
Best for Easterby at 6
Boss for Stringer at 9
Trimble for Hickie at 11
Murphy for Horgan at 14

Bench
Best
Sheehan
Quinlan
Ferris
Stringer
Wallace
Horgan

bugler

Easterby can play 8.

No, he can't. When (and against who) has he ever played 8? You've picked the back row who does least carrying as an 8.

By the way, it has been fairly obvious to me (and judging by the reaction of posters and journos to the first two games) that Easterby has been the most disappointing of the back row. The back row for me would be either Best or Quinlan at 6, with the other on the bench. Tell each of them to give hell for fupping leather for 40 minutes or so.

raven136

boss is not the right scrum half for the french game,too slow in his pass and its obvious to his opposite number he makes a half break every time.Reddan would be much better but wont be brought it.despite what everyone is saying eos will not make unenforced changes

bugler

raven136 wrote:

Reddan would be much better but wont be brought it.despite what everyone is saying eos will not make unenforced changes

Hah

Diarmuid

Deleted User wrote:

Murphy for Dempsey.

Have to disagree here. There are so many poorly performing Irish players that it makes no sense to drop one of the few that are putting in a decent performance. Hickey or Horgan could both be replaced by Murphy

dub_skav

Sorry Bugler, you're probably right. I was getting confused about Easterby playing for Scarlets,knew he played elsewhere than 6, but it's 7 not 8.

In any case, everybody seems to be singling out Easterby from the backrow, where I think Leamy and Wallace have been far worse - Wallace anonymous and Leamy poor.

Obviously another 8 should have been brought, why not give Ferris a try?

If (I hope when) Leamy has a stormer on Friday I will be called an idiot, but picking a guy playing badly because you have no other options is a sad state of affairs.

My main gripe though is the pointless Argentinian tour. They should have played a mixture of first choice players with up and comers, then a different mixture for the next test, so no first choice guys had to play twice. Then we could see how the untried guys get on playing with the established players.

All that we saw from that tour was what our team would be like if our first choice xv all got injured.

Linford

Linford wrote:

Trimble? He was pretty impressive against Namibia;)

Yea and Horgan was great against Georgia wasnt he.

Read the post. Its about getting rid of complacency and the "my place is secure" mentality.

Diarmuid

Diarmuid wrote:

Have to disagree here. There are so many poorly performing Irish players that it makes no sense to drop one of the few that are putting in a decent performance. Hickey or Horgan could both be replaced by Murphy

Its about having as more attacking option at fullback rather than a reflection of the Girv himself.

GreeBo

Deleted User wrote:

Yea and Horgan was great against Georgia wasnt he.

Read the post. Its about getting rid of complacency and the "my place is secure" mentality.

Its a bit hard to say that Horgan is complacent when its his first game back from injury and he worked to get himself back in time.

I would leave Trimble on the bench, I just dont think he can cut it. Doesnt seem to have the speed to go outside or the strength to go inside.

My issues are:
1) Why does O'Sullivan get O'Gara to use that useless half kick at the restarts?
A long kick puts pressure on the winger, etc and usually results in them kicking it back giving us possession.
A short kick allows our forwards to fight for it.
This half way thing gives their forwards time and protection to figure out an attacking platform and I for one dont understand it.

2) Why dont the forwards hit the breakdowns/rucks?
On Saturday they didnt commit anyone to trying to turnover a ruck, they all just stood their with their hands in the air, even when it was our bloody ball.
Cue the turnovers.
If they stopped hanging about in the back line and did their jobs perhaps we would have some points on the board...

pd101

I think the Ireland camp have a "It'll be alright on the day" attitude. Namibia should have been the kick up the arse they needed. They obviously thought that it was just a one-off result, but the Georgia game has to have opened their eyes and Im expecting rather than hoping for a much improved performance against France.

philstar

is there a rift in the camp, a falling out between the manager and players??

ala georden murphy and all that??

raven136

neil francis said on the last word that there is a reason hickie had to retire now and it wont be known until after the world cup.Anyone any clue?