I am now firmly a Jol-outer...

therecklessone

I am usually willing to give a fella a chance to prove me wrong, but I think Martin has had his chance and blown it. This is not prompted by results, or even individual performances...our coach and his backroom support are incapable of learning from their mistakes (Jol as good as confirmed this at the charity Q&A last week when he said they can't work out how to deal with set pieces) or compensating for deficiencies in our squad.

The case against the man grows stronger every day...

Tactics

Jol gets it wrong tactically on a number of fronts. Starting from the back, why have we persisted with lumping long balls up field from the keeper when it is clear that ball retention and possession is key to taking and holding a lead? It is a failed and anachronistic tactic that belongs back in the 80s. It contributes to our problem in absorbing pressure from teams because we continue to surrender possession and allow teams to push us further back towards our goal line.

Our inability to defend set pieces in itself should be enough rope to hang the manager with, never mind admitting the same at a public forum. Its not like the side lacks height, Dawson, King, Kaboul, Gardner, Jenas, Bale, Huddlestone, Berbatov, and Chimbonda can all head a ball...Robinson does not command his box but the outfield players are unable to protect the keeper. That can be coached, it just looks like Jol can't.

Using Robbie Keane as a pseudo-midfielder is ridiculous, he can't/won't tackle for a start...it leaves his forward partner too isolated and adds little in terms of presence in the middle. He does run around a lot, and against the likes of Derby and Fulham it can yield results, but against the top sides it achieves little while weakening the team as a whole. OK, it worked once against Chelsea, but that might have had more to do with Boularouz being crap than Keane being great as a fifth body in the middle.

In general, our negative response to taking the lead in games (dropping back to "defend" the lead) plays into our opponents' hands and accentuates our frailties.

Team selection

So many mistakes...Keane 0 goals from 5 starts before Saturday yet Bent was on the bench and Defoe not even in the 16? Robinson untouchable in goals, Keane played at RM against Everton with Routledge sitting on the bench? Tony Gardner consciously chosen over Ricardo Rocha in the same game? Plenty of rotation for the sake of it last season, then inexplicably dropping players who are just getting their match fitness and sharpness back (Ghaly, Murphy, Defoe!)

Add in poor substitutions...Berbatov and Lennon off away to Chelsea in the cup last season springs to mind. Taking Keane off for Defoe away to Fulham a couple of weeks ago yet persisting with long fruitless balls which Defoe can do f*ck all with was a disaster waiting to happen. I can count on one hand the amount of times BMJ has changed the course of a game by making tactical switches during a game...that's a worrying trend.

One could argue that Jol is hamstrung by the set up at Spurs with a DOF buying players that he doesn't want or believe he needs. I've given him a lot of leeway over the last two seasons because of this, but if he can't even get the basics right then it matters not a jot that he isn't being given the resources he needs. IMHO, the Spurs squad is one of the best in the league outside the top 4, I could understand if Jol had to work with substandard players but our lack of a ball-winner in CM aside he has bloody good resources at his disposal.

I respect the manager, and appreciate what he's achieved at the club in the last three years...but its time for a change.

galinka

Actually Ronan i've never thought much of him - tactically useless, substitutions baffling, no coaching ability to my eye blah blah.

However on Saturday i dont blame him at all - i thought our strikers had 3/4 great chances and failed to convert one. I fear Bent may be the next Rebrov!! You read it here first!! Great pace but clueless in finishing. He got 2 chances Defoe would have buried. (And i can't stand him)

Our 2 Cb's now turn their back on every shot - i've enough of Malbranque as well, conceded first goal free kick needlessly and did what exactly for 70 minutes.

Let's see if either Boateng or Taarabt are any good - i'm also afraid Lennon is not going to offer much - may have needed game on Saturday but contributed nought.

Watched highlights on MOTD an hour ago - good game but Hansen summed it up well - we can't defend for nuts.

BERBA

GALINKA,

Don't agree that Bent is a clueless finisher ...he's a top top finisher!!!

imo its bents excellent finishing last year at Charlton thats the key to us shelling out 16.5m.How many goals did he get for a relegated Charlton last season (and he was injured for a right chunk of that) don't get me wrong i wouldn't have bought him ...way too much bobs when you consider were cryin out for a hardman in midfield.By the way Jol has to go now.

John W

I am afraid I would have to agree with what was said about his choices and tactics, and again this opinion is being made over a long period of games not just the bad start. However, I am not sure changing the manger now will help right now!. Someone in the back room staff or board need to show him the error of his ways, there are some strong individuals at the club who can help, and now is the time to step up! Like you say some of the tactical errors should be glaring to Jol if shown to him by someone. Changing the manager would be very unsettling, especially in this unsettled period, not what we want. I do think he should be "told" to change a few things, maybe not an ultimatum (or maybe if really needed!) - Keane is not a Capitan, and is not playing well and needs to be on the bench a while, likewise with Robbo - I think Jenas would also benefit from a match or two on the sidelines. I know it is an important game, but I think we need to take a chance on Thursday and put in some new blood in attack and midfield. I would like to see Lennon, Tarrabt, Bent and The Prince all play a part in Thursday’s game - For Christ sake, if we can't beat Famagusta at home with any combination of our squad, we don’t deserve to be in the competition anyway!:o

Hatch99

Interesting Ronan, I didnt think you would get on the Jol out truck so quickly but thats football I suppose, a results business. Im still undecided to be honest. Following saturdays game, Im edging ever closer to the truck but I still have reservations as to wether shipping him out would be the most intelligent move !

If we did get rid now, as so many want, who replaces him ?? Do we spend the next 2 or 3 months with Hughton or Allen in charge and completely waste away the season ? Ramos will stay in Spain for the season I would imagine, and he appears number 1 on the list. Cappelo and Lippi have been mentioned but what about a certain Mark Hughes, maybe not high profile but maybe the man to add the much needed steel we lack !!

As for Darren Bent being a clueless finisher, cmon talk sense, he misses one chance at the Lane and all of a sudden, he's crap.....

Dublin Spur

No excuses left for Jol.
5th in 06
5th in 07
45/50mil spent this summer and nobody sold
Loose 4 of opening 6 games
Sackable facts regardless of who the manager is.
4th is already beyond Spurs which means Berbatov is as good as gone.
Get a new man in pronto and hopfully we can salvage something from the season. Jol's a nice fella but nice fella's win nothing in this game.

You've had your crack at it and failed like all the others before you.......Next !

therecklessone

Dublin Spur wrote:

No excuses left for Jol.
5th in 06
5th in 07
45/50mil spent this summer and nobody sold
Loose 4 of opening 6 games
Sackable facts regardless of who the manager is.

Can't concentrate on results Shane, we could have played out of our skins and still lost them 4...could have had a load of injuries...got to focus on what we've done on the field, that start is the exact same as last season's...

Dublin Spur

therecklessone wrote:

Can't concentrate on results Shane, we could have played out of our skins and still lost them 4...could have had a load of injuries...got to focus on what we've done on the field, that start is the exact same as last season's...

In my view it's a results game and the table never lies.
He's been given both time (3yrs) and resourses (big money signings) and he's failed.
We're in desperate need of a shake up and a new boss. The squad has bags of potential, just need the right man to get it out of them. That man is not Martin Jol.

therecklessone

Dublin Spur wrote:

In my view it's a results game and the table never lies.

Sorry mate, that's not how you should judge a manager.

In general terms, would you say the same if our entire defence had been injured for the six games and we'd got 4 points from a total 18?

If the only keeper we had available was from the academy side?

I'm not making excuses for Jol (be a bit rich considering what I wrote up top) but I think a manager needs to be assessed on more than results. If Jol was doing all the right things off the field and we were still losing then I'd draw the conclusion that our squad was not up to the task, not that Jol wasn't good enough.

Two cases in point:

1. David Moyes' Everton finishing 4th one season followed by 11th the following. Was Moyes a bad manager because of that slip? They jumped back to 6th last season.

2. Alex Ferguson rumoured to be an FA Cup game away from the sack in the early part of his career, what a stupid decision that would have been...

I could throw in another...Mark Hughes and Blackburn managing 6th followed by slipping to 10th (despite replacing Bellamy with McCarthy)

Results do reflect the manager's ability to influence his squad, but we need to look beyond results to judge any manager's performance.

WhiteWashMan

well, whatever happens, barbatov is as good as gone.
while thats not the worse thing in the world, and we should manage to retain the services of the people we need to keep.

at the same time, berbatov is one of the top players in the world, and he plays for spurs. he is our player. and our results so far have pretty much gaurenteed that he wont be at WHL next season.

that in itself is an incredible loss. will we have any money left to replace him next season? right now, im hoping we get bought out by someone with a shed load of cash, who will inject another 50 million next season, and get us 3-4 world class players. hopefully defenders and midfield.

we all seem to know what we need, and yet the board and the manager cant seem to get them. i am alsways of the belief that they know whats best, bust seriously. a million spurs fans cant all be wrong.

can they?

John W

WhiteWashMan wrote:

we all seem to know what we need, and yet the board and the manager cant seem to get them. i am always of the belief that they know whats best, bust seriously. a million spurs fans cant all be wrong.

can they?

Boggles the mind alright, there must be method in there madness, these are not stupid people. Can anyone explain? My only thought is that they bought Bale as the "class LM player" With Tarrabt and Price as backup and intended that Yip and Esso and Saltari would be good enough at LB? I also think that maybe they thought they had cover on the right with Lennon and Routladge fighting for that position. At the back they bought in Kabul, and figured they would have King and Dawson so they are sorted at the back. Up front, with the purchase of Bent, four great strikers, done and dusted! However, sometimes things don't work out as you planned. BMJ has had injuries, serious ones, and The Prince, Tarrabt, have not been played enough for me. Like I said in another post, IF we would have had the team I name below from the start of the season, fit, well and playing together, maybe we wouldn't be having this discussion. I hope we will soon, but it may all be to late! And like you say, with a bad finish (out of Europe) we could see the likes of Bale, Berbs, Bent, and maybe more Gone next year and I doubt more money would be coming from the Board. I don't mean to sound doom and gloom, but it is imperative that we pick up our game, and soon, if not we could end up back as a middle of the table team, and real soon at that!

Cerny/Robbo if playing well

Chimbo - Dawson/Kabul - King - Lee/(whoever)

Lennon/Rout - Jenas/Zac - Prince/Steed - Bale/Tarrabt

Berbs - Bent/Keane/Defoe

All fit, all playing well and BMJ can bring them on and off to suite team we are playing! Maybe then, just maybe?? Still don't think even with them all fit and well that is, IMO, a 4th place squad, sorry.

Dublin Spur

therecklessone wrote:

Sorry mate, that's not how you should judge a manager.

In general terms, would you say the same if our entire defence had been injured for the six games and we'd got 4 points from a total 18?

If the only keeper we had available was from the academy side?

I'm not making excuses for Jol (be a bit rich considering what I wrote up top) but I think a manager needs to be assessed on more than results. If Jol was doing all the right things off the field and we were still losing then I'd draw the conclusion that our squad was not up to the task, not that Jol wasn't good enough.

Two cases in point:

1. David Moyes' Everton finishing 4th one season followed by 11th the following. Was Moyes a bad manager because of that slip? They jumped back to 6th last season.

2. Alex Ferguson rumoured to be an FA Cup game away from the sack in the early part of his career, what a stupid decision that would have been...

I could throw in another...Mark Hughes and Blackburn managing 6th followed by slipping to 10th (despite replacing Bellamy with McCarthy)

Results do reflect the manager's ability to influence his squad, but we need to look beyond results to judge any manager's performance.

In most jobs/careers it is results that you are judged on. Targets/Objectives are agreed and your performance is judged on how well you did based on the targets that were set at the begining.

I think Jol has underperformed badly since Aug last year.

We snuck into 5th with arguably the 5th best squad in the league. That was a lot less convencing then our league form the previous season. Then there was the 4 pts in 8 games (or something like that) last Aug/Sep. For this to be allowed to happen again this season is criminal at it would simply not happen at any of the big 4 clubs.

Our routes to the FA cup quarter final and the 2 cup semis were a doddle on paper given the squad we have. We also made a meal of some of the ties along the way (Port Vale extra at WHL time springs to mind, and there were other unconvincing results aginst hugely lesser teams).

Time is up for Jol - he's not the answer (to be continued at airport on Thurs.....);)