Fianna Fail 32 county coup?

mike65

So then by hook or buy crook(e) Fianna Fail are marching towards a united Ireland as they announce a takeover of the SDLP (in so many words) by organising in Norn Iron. Mark Durkan seems to be ready for the come-hither look from Bertie and Dermot.

Gerry Adams or more likely his presumed succesors might be turning the air blue at the notion of possibility, nay proberbility of having to do battle with the FF machine across the Island.

No noises yet from the unionsists who may see some advantage in FF and SF going head to head.

Mike.

Mick86

I don't see many people in Northern Ireland voting for a Free State party. Good luck to them.

E92

Some SDLP people would be biased towards Fine Gael, others(the side that believes more in the socialism bit than the Uniting the Island bit) towards Labour. I don't know if this great plan of Bert(really what he is trying to do is to get some attention away from the Mahon tribunal) will achieve its stated aim and that is to reduce the vote the Shinners have in NI. The SDLP have strong links with Fine Gael and Labour as well as Fianna Fáil too.

If it does serve to dilute the Shinner vote, I see nothing wrong with Feel and Fail having a 32 county party(anything that reduces the vote of the Shinners has to be welcomed); actually I see no reason why Fine Gael, Labour don't have 32 county parties, even if they don't stand any candidates in elections and perform a role similar to the NI Tories, it could be useful in terms of money raising for the parties(after all the Shinners have made ue of this fact for years).

My fear is that what would really happen is that the SDLP vote would split between those who want to be part of FF and those who wouldn't, and that would just simply make the Shinners advantage over the SDLP at present even more exaccerbated.

Zambia

I for one would vote for a FF candidate if thay actually attracted the right type of candidates to them.

Fact is I think a lot of the MLA's here simply make grand gestures with little in the way of long term planning and genuine concern for the good of the country, united or divided.

Its not there fault a lot of them have been so busy blowing things up then trying to get things peacefull, running a country was a un-planned event.

The vote seems to split here along the lines of I will vote for the bloke who has the most chance of defeating the bloke I dont like.

Jackie laughlin

Mick,
SF is FF but with threatening noises and a more recent history of violence.


This move would split the SDLP (the real heroes of N.I.) and perhaps induce Labour to return to N.I. Indeed, given that Blair and Ahern did so much damage to the SDLP in favour of SF, I wonder why the SDLP are not more resentful?

flogen

Firstly, Empey has come out against this and suggested that it would destroy the balance only recently acheived.

FF organising in the North would be an interesting one as I see them as a party with policies on the centre-right (like the UUP and DUP) but a constitutional stance of Irish nationalism... an interesting combination!

Should they stand for election in the near future, however, they may find out what SF did this year - what works on your home turf doesn't necessarily work on the other side of the border.

McArmalite

He was the most outspoken stoop when people tried to set up a De Velera FF cumman in Derry a number of years ago. Ofcourse he cited the usual " it'll drive a wedge between the communities" as his excuse. etc John just been true to his british identity. And what about the blueshirts ? I suppose the Ulster unionists would be there natural party of choice across the border, the PD's will probably bed down with their fellow hardline unionists - the DUP

As for Mick and nationalists in the occupied counties voting for 'Free State' parties - have you ever been in the North ? Indeed, since Adams and SF take their seats in Leinster House, surely Northern Nationalists have been already returning a 'Free State' party for a while now ?

Mick86

Jackie laughlin wrote:

Mick,
SF is FF but with threatening noises and a more recent history of violence.

NI republicans won't see it like that. They see FF, biggest party in the country that left them in the lurch in 1922.

Zambia

Mick86 wrote:

NI republicans won't see it like that. They see FF, biggest party in the country that left them in the lurch in 1922.

I reckon if FF promise to sort out water charges 1922 would be all forgiven.

RedPlanet

Fianna Fail didn't formally exist in 1922.
They were founded in 1926.
Aren't free staters all the one colour? (blue... or was that yellow?)

purple'n'gold

"And what about the blueshirts ? I suppose the Ulster unionists would be there natural party of choice across the border, the PD's will probably bed down with their fellow hardline unionists - the DUP"
Have you any idea who the blueshirts were? Read Maurice Manning's book before you make silly statements like that.

Jackie laughlin

The "national question" has been resolved. SF/IRA with some help from others has bombed us into permanent partition and produced spectacularly effective ghettoes within N.I.

It's nonsense to try to place all parties coming into N.I. on some kind of spectrum with Irish unity at one end and integration with Britain at the other. The constitution of Northern Ireland has been settled - agreed by all factions: N.I. is part of the U.K. pending European integration.

The only constitutional reform now worth discussing is the dangerous N.I. parliament with no opposition.

Jigsaw

I thoroughly welcome FF in the North and in principle shall be voting for them at the next opportunity.

More of the same I say.

mike65

Jackie laughlin wrote:

The only constitutional reform now worth discussing is the dangerous N.I. parliament with no opposition.

Sure it was designed to be inclusive. No need for debate or dissent in a 'national government'

The danger is that, everyone having thier feet under the table, no-one will shout stop when they do something really stupid. That said the NI Office still exists. How much longer for is another matter.

Mike.

Zambia

Jackie laughlin wrote:

The "national question" has been resolved. SF/IRA with some help from others has bombed us into permanent partition and produced spectacularly effective ghettoes within N.I.

It's nonsense to try to place all parties coming into N.I. on some kind of spectrum with Irish unity at one end and integration with Britain at the other. The constitution of Northern Ireland has been settled - agreed by all factions: N.I. is part of the U.K. pending European integration.

The only constitutional reform now worth discussing is the dangerous N.I. parliament with no opposition.

Oh dear lord Jackie

1: The question is not settled. Your use of the term SF/IRA proves that.

2: Every party has a stance on every question, its like the have a stance of Immgration or something FF have a right to set up in the North and in the rest of the UK if they so wish.

3: Believe me there will always be an opposition.

4: What ghettos ? I Probably live in one by your standards sorry if we all cant live in the lap of luxury you may be used to. Care to highlight these areas and enlighten me. Because i can guarantee I can name far worse areas in the South.

Jackie laughlin

Zambia232,
My use of the term SF/IRA indicates nothing more than that those organisations have been are still are one.

There are small factions who do not recognise the Stormont parliament but all parties having seats in parliaments in these islands recognise the constitutional position of Stormont. That much is over. The shame is that we had to endure so much slaughter before SF/IRA changed their minds.

I have no objection whatsoever to FF moving into N.I. I merely commented that it would almost certainly mean the end of the SDLP to which Bertie and Blair did so much damage in their wooing of SF/IRA. There is a strong socialist element within the SDLP and these might indeed be liberated by a split.

There may be opposition movements to all sorts of things in N.I. but there is no opposition - by design - in the parliament of N.I.

I think perhaps you misunderstand the word "ghetto". I'm not referring to poverty at all - though the ghettoised areas of N.I. tend to be relatively poor - but to separation, e.g. catholic and protestant areas.

I think you should apologise. You've no reason for thinking that I live in the lap of luxury. For your information, my income is less than the average industrial wage.

Zambia

Jackie laughlin wrote:

Zambia232,
My use of the term SF/IRA indicates nothing more than that those organisations have been are still are one.

Horse crap its an inflammatory term and you know it. Used simply by people to discredit an elected party. I didnt vote for them but i can't simply dismiss the thousands who did. On one hand you applaud the end to violence and on the other spout this reference that try's to keep it going.

Jackie laughlin wrote:

I think perhaps you misunderstand the word "ghetto". I'm not referring to poverty at all - though the ghettoised areas of N.I. tend to be relatively poor - but to separation, e.g. catholic and protestant areas.

I think you should apologise. You've no reason for thinking that I live in the lap of luxury. For your information, my income is less than the average industrial wage.

Lets look up ghetto

refers to very high concentrations of people drawn from a particular ethnic or cultural background living in specific parts of an urban area. The term is now commonly associated with notions of deprivation, unemployment and social exclusion.

Historically the Jewish quarter in a Christian city. The first ghetto was est in Rome in 1555 by pope Paul IV. The practice was revived by the Nazis in WWII. Now a densely populated slum area dominated by one racial group.

A section of a city where the Nazis forced all Jews to live. A ghetto was often sealed off with walls, barbed wire and armed guards, preventing people from entering or leaving.

Originally, the section of a European city to which Jews were restricted. Today, commonly defined as a section of a city occupied by members of a minority group who live there because of social restrictions on their residential choice.

Your use of the word ghetto is flawed.

However if you take offence to the use of the term Lap of luxury , I freely retract it with my apologies.

Senator

As a northerner, I would welcome ALL the southern parties organising here and presenting themselves and their policies for the people's judgement.

Dalfiatach

Back when I was an impressionable student I was in Ogra FF for a while. And at an Ogra conference in the early 90s, attended by the then Taoiseach (Albert) and quite a few Ministers (including a much younger Brian Cowen) we were treated to lots of talk and promises that plans were already well advanced to...

...organise in the North.

It's all nonsense. FF do this every 15 years or so, since the 1940s. They do it in order to con the next generation of voters into believing that FF really are a "republican" party who are serious about unification. This they do for two reasons: one, they entrench their lock on the bar-stool patriot vote; and two by wrapping the green flag round them and loudly proclaiming their virtue they imply that the other parties (and in particular FG) are "unsound". This niggling doubt remains in the minds of huge chunks of the electorate, and come election time lots and lots of people who despise the government still go out and vote FF because "They might be crap but at least they're good Irishmen, sure wouldn't it be worse if a bunch of treacherous WestBrits were in power".

That FF have got away with this simple con for nearly 70 years never ceases to astound me.

We were due another bout of this rubbish anyway. Ahern only announced it this week to try and distract some people from his ridiculous blether at the Tribunal.

Senator

Isn't there already a FF cumann in Derry and aren't some Queen's University students organising one there too ?

Jackie laughlin

Zambia,
Yes, the term SF/IRA does annoy those trying to wriggle out of responsibility for their crimes. The fact that people vote for a criminal doesn't exonerate that person.

Your definition of ghetto is fine now. My point was that SF/IRA have contributed greatly to worsening division in NI and have now recognised partition. Now, that has to rate as failure on a grand scale.

Your apology is accepted.

Zambia

Jackie laughlin wrote:

Zambia,
Yes, the term SF/IRA does annoy those trying to wriggle out of responsibility for their crimes. The fact that people vote for a criminal doesn't exonerate that person.

If I joined the SF party this morning i do not deserve to be labeled as a member of the IRA. Every time i hear that reference its by some eejit DUP hardliner who just cant move forward. Its a refernce that should be left in the past. Its as if these eejits want to eradicate every old nationalist and replace them with new ones who never ever lifted a finger. However this is miles of thread

Jackie laughlin wrote:

Your definition of ghetto is fine now.

What does this mean , yes you mis-used it or in the last 24 hours the meaning of the word changed ?

Jackie laughlin wrote:

My point was that SF/IRA have contributed greatly to worsening division in NI and have now recognised partition. Now, that has to rate as failure on a grand scale.

Granted but division has always been present, at least its a tad more even now.

Nobody's hands in this mess are much cleaner than anyone elses.

Not everyone sees recognised partition as a failure.

But like I said we have strayed OT , FF are welcome to enter Northern politics but i fear Dalfiatach is correct on their motives after some thought.

Voipjunkie

Zambia232 wrote:

But like I said we have strayed OT , FF are welcome to enter Northern politics but i fear Dalfiatach is correct on their motives after some thought.

Yeah this chestnut appears every now and again

Although it is possible that now that the conflict has subsided that FF might feel safer entering the North now than they did before.

On the SF issue it will not make much difference to them it will be a takeover of the SDLP it might cost them some votes in the middle class but over all I reckon they would welcome it as a start to the realignment of politics on the island as a whole.

Off Topic Any chance in the interests of the keeping threads on topic that terms like SF/IRA could be banned it drags discussions on the north continually back to who did what and when that have been argued over and over already. The only purpose it seems to serve is to get peoples backs up

lostexpectation

Zambia232 wrote:

If I joined the SF party this morning i do not deserve to be labeled as a member of the IRA. Every time i hear that reference its by some eejit DUP hardliner who just cant move forward. Its a refernce that should be left in the past. Its as if these eejits want to eradicate every old nationalist and replace them with new ones who never ever lifted a finger. However this is miles of thread

dont you mean DUP/UDA

Mr.Micro

Are FF intent of upsetting SF by moving onto their turf .Is the 26 counties not big enough for FF to make a mess with Health ,transport , education and now are sickly economy. Sort out the 26 before moving north to stir trouble in my opinion.

Our man in Havana

Another abstentionist party. All that NI needs.

Zambia

lostexpectation wrote:

dont you mean DUP/UDA

dont know who would be more offended at being linked to the other :rolleyes:

lostexpectation

Zambia232 wrote:

dont know who would be more offended at being linked to the other :rolleyes:

well who is political wing of the UDA

Gobán Saor

lostexpectation wrote:

dont you mean DUP/UDA

LOL:D

UDA wouldn't be, um, god-fearing enough for DUP types. All those tattoos and drugs, don't you know. DUP/Ulster Resistance would be accurate though. Paisley, Robinson and Sammy Wilson were prominent in setting up UR.

Proceeds of a Northern Bank robbery (honestly, you couldn't make this stuff up!) were then used to acquire AK47's, Browning 9mm pistols and RPG7 rocket launchers, grenades and ammunition for UR/UDA/UVF. The gear was ex-PLO stuff, captured by the Christian militia in Lebanon. Sadly for our heroes, the "security forces" intercepted the vast bulk of the stuff. (UR membership also overlapped with UDR membership - pay attention now.) One of those convicted of possession was a DUP member (but not a UDR member.)

UR then used contacts in Shorts Brothers to try to sell missile technology to the South Africans in return for further arms but this dastardly plot was also foiled. Surprisingly (or not) those convicted for this received suspended sentences and a fine.

UR resurfaced in June 2007 when the Sunday Life published a picture of two armed and masked men in combat uniform with a banner which read "Ulster Resistance C Division" (There's no information on the whereabouts of A Division or B Division.) http://www.sundaylife.co.uk/news/article2640640.ece#
A spokesman said that "Paisley had let a lot of people down" but UR was recognised by the security forces as "probably the best armed organisation in the Protestant community" and had the "the capability and resources to strike with deadly force."

Zambia

lostexpectation wrote:

well who is political wing of the UDA

UPRG

Zambia

Personnally I would take every thing the Sunday life says with a heart attack inducing pince of salt, once we let the like of the UDA etc die out they really wont have a paper...thats all they write about.

But I have no counter evidence to say if its true or not.