Fianna Fail 32 county coup?

Jackie laughlin

Zambia,
If you were to join SF tomorrow, you would indeed be joining SF/IRA; both exist and are inextricably linked. Moreover, no organisation is born anew every time a person joins. They all have history and your decision to join would in part be conditioned by that history.

You are being far too pedantic over "ghetto". The word is commonly used to describe the separation of people and in modern use it often means a cultural or psychological separation as in "ghetto mentality". My point is that SF/IRA have contributed greatly to driving two sets of Irish people further apart.

Come on, an organisation sets out to "unify" Ireland, kills and maims people along the way and after decades of this finds the country more divided than when it started. By any standard that is spectacular failure.

There are people who have been active in politics in Northern Ireland whose hands are not at all bloody and they have been betrayed by the Irish and British governments.

Voip,
I disagree with you about clearing this and similar topics of reference to what happened in the past. To do so would be to make a very firm political statement of support for the position of SF/IRA. That this argument surfaces everytime N.I. is raised IS the point. FF is not foolishly going to organise in N.I. pretending that it's like starting a cumann in in a new housing estate. They realise fully that this move, if it happens, will be a step into a political morass. True, it might well be a helpful move. But let's not all fall into the SF/IRA/Basil Fawlty trap of "don't mention the war!"

Zambia

At some piont Jackie your going to have to live in this century. We could all go around calling the PSNI The PSNI/RUC because they are comprised of the same body of people. Some do to be honest but others take it for what it is a geniune attempt at a change of attitude.

I can understand the actions of the IRA have caused hardship in the past but for years part of the problems in the north are caused by people instilling a hatred for others in future generations. History at some piont has to become history.

This reference is exactly that type of behaviour, for pitys sake just let it go.

Or else explain to me what you see as the objective of constantly remembering the war as you put it? Would you like it to flare up again?

Jackie laughlin

Zambia,
Real people don't live in the moment. They live in their time which is determined by history. I'm not quoting accurately as it's from memory but Marx put it nicely, "Men make history but not in conditions of their own choosing".

When you use the word "hardship" you make a whole political argument. I would make a different one by saying "needless death and destruction".

I won't make comparisons between the killings and injuries caused by the RUC and those caused by SF/IRA. That would be risible. However, the crimes of the former are much more serious and their perpetrators should be treated much more harshly as they were expected to behave as a police force.

The "let's forget or it might start again" routine is not an argument; it is either a fear or a threat.

Killers are hunted down and imprisoned so that people can "move on". I hate that pshychobabble-like term but normal people have a sense of rightous indignation and expect society to be run on principles of justice and decency.

McArmalite

Dalfiatach wrote:

Back when I was an impressionable student I was in Ogra FF for a while. And at an Ogra conference in the early 90s, attended by the then Taoiseach (Albert) and quite a few Ministers (including a much younger Brian Cowen) we were treated to lots of talk and promises that plans were already well advanced to...

...organise in the North.

It's all nonsense. FF do this every 15 years or so, since the 1940s. They do it in order to con the next generation of voters into believing that FF really are a "republican" party who are serious about unification. This they do for two reasons: one, they entrench their lock on the bar-stool patriot vote; and two by wrapping the green flag round them and loudly proclaiming their virtue they imply that the other parties (and in particular FG) are "unsound". This niggling doubt remains in the minds of huge chunks of the electorate, and come election time lots and lots of people who despise the government still go out and vote FF because "They might be crap but at least they're good Irishmen, sure wouldn't it be worse if a bunch of treacherous WestBrits were in power".

That FF have got away with this simple con for nearly 70 years never ceases to astound me.

We were due another bout of this rubbish anyway. Ahern only announced it this week to try and distract some people from his ridiculous blether at the Tribunal.

Yer on the ball there Dalfiatach, especially " They do it in order to con the next generation of voters into believing that FF really are a "republican" party who are serious about unification. This they do for two reasons: one, they entrench their lock on the bar-stool patriot vote; and two by wrapping the green flag round them and loudly proclaiming their virtue they imply that the other parties ". That's how the country is run I'm afraid.

Zambia

Jackie laughlin wrote:

Killers are hunted down and imprisoned so that people can "move on". I hate that pshychobabble-like term but normal people have a sense of rightous indignation and expect society to be run on principles of justice and decency.

So you agree at some piont we have to start moving on. Do you see that piont as the piont where every criminal murder commited during the troubles has been solved?

Jackie laughlin

Zambia,
No one would be daft enough to answer such a transparently devious question in the way you hope.

I said quite a bit which you ignored and I said that "moving on" was conditional on meting out justice.

There is neither merit nor need to let murderers go free. The constitutional position of N.I. is now copperfastened. The civil powers are now in firm control. Let's look to justice.

By the way, I read recently somewhere that there was controversy over memorials. The Omagh memorial has been designed but words will be disputed. History - especially recent history - is a living force in a society. I'm told that there will be trouble too over a memorial for Enniskillen. What should be engraved? Did the people there "die tragically during the troubles" or were they "murdered by psychopaths who couldn't tolerate Remembrance Day"? This is a real dispute involving people living in the first decade of the 21st century.

There's no easy way out. Forgetting is not an option. Saying that we should not talk about the recent past is a self-serving political argument put forward by those guilty of terrible crimes, their associates and their supporters.

Voipjunkie

Jackie laughlin wrote:

Come on, an organisation sets out to "unify" Ireland, kills and maims people along the way and after decades of this finds the country more divided than when it started. By any standard that is spectacular failure.

This country is more divided than 1968 by what measure do you come to that conclusion.

Jackie laughlin wrote:

There are people who have been active in politics in Northern Ireland whose hands are not at all bloody and they have been betrayed by the Irish and British governments.

The British Government have blood on their hands as well so if we are to exclude those with blood on their hands it would leave John Hume and Bertie talking to each other. Yeah that would be a great success.
You do not make peace with your allies obviously you would prefer the predictability of the conflict as all you appear to want to do is drag any discussion back to 30 years ago.

Jackie laughlin wrote:

Voip,
I disagree with you about clearing this and similar topics of reference to what happened in the past. To do so would be to make a very firm political statement of support for the position of SF/IRA. That this argument surfaces everytime N.I. is raised IS the point. FF is not foolishly going to organise in N.I. pretending that it's like starting a cumann in in a new housing estate. They realise fully that this move, if it happens, will be a step into a political morass. True, it might well be a helpful move. But let's not all fall into the SF/IRA/Basil Fawlty trap of "don't mention the war!"

No all that happens is that we go around in circles so a discussion on whether FF should organise in the 32 counties turns in to the usual debacle of SF/IRA well you started it no you did.
By all means mention the war but just not on every thread that mentions the North it serves no purpose and just makes this place look like groundhog day

Voipjunkie

Jackie laughlin wrote:

Zambia,




I won't make comparisons between the killings and injuries caused by the RUC and those caused by SF/IRA. That would be risible. However, the crimes of the former are much more serious and their perpetrators should be treated much more harshly as they were expected to behave as a police force.

The "let's forget or it might start again" routine is not an argument; it is either a fear or a threat.

Killers are hunted down and imprisoned so that people can "move on". I hate that pshychobabble-like term but normal people have a sense of rightous indignation and expect society to be run on principles of justice and decency.

Except that continually chasing the past will not improve the present or the future by all means people have a right to know what was done and why it was done and by whom it was done but the terms of the GFA already mean that anyone caught for offenses committed during the conflict will serve little if anytime in prison.

People tend to only have righteous indignation on their own side particularly groups like FAIT etc we should not allow groups like that to drag us backwards perhaps it is time for some kind of truth and reconciliation commission so that people can come forward and admit what they did why they did it and on who they were acting on behalf off and at least we would know that much I don't see any advantage in having hundreds of people Republicans, Loyalists , RUC and British Army in prison now.

luckylucky

I'm always gobsmacked when I see Irish people from a 'nationalistic' persuasion buying into what the British influenced papers and media spout out in the Republic. Sorry to say this but man I think we're such a dumb race sometimes that we deserved what we got. SF/IRA - Yes the two are linked, they are not the same but they are linked, it's an obvious deduction and one the unionists have exploited. Still it doesn't mean you had to buy into it. I don't agree with what the IRA did but ffs have you ever even been to the North, maybe it becomes more understandable if you have. And really you shouldn't buy-in into Unioinist/British terminology when they are responsible for millions of deaths in our past over the last few hundred years.

Zambia

Jackie laughlin wrote:

Zambia,
No one would be daft enough to answer such a transparently devious question in the way you hope.

I hoped you would make your position clear on when we as an Island move on past the troubles. I have no loss close to me as a result of the troubles , so its an easier step for me than most to move on.

A clear Marker was all I was looking for. No deviousness intended.

luckylucky

Zambia, I gather your a nationalist. In your location you have Belfast, N.Ireland which puzzles me. I thought it was only Belfast posters from the unionist tradition here that had their signature as N.Ireland to emphassise the Northern factor. It's not as if we think your from Belfast, Tennessee is it

I know I'm being a bit cheeky, soz but just genuinely curious.

Mr.Nice Guy

People need to look at the timing of this. What do I mean? Allow me to elaborate...

IT'S A SMOKESCREEN

Bertie under the cosh, hospitals closing down. This is a sad attempt to warm the hearts of the grassroots and to try and attract young people to the party.

Zambia

yes I wouldnt want to be confused with Belfast in Natal, South Africa its a kip

Zambia

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

People need to look at the timing of this. What do I mean? Allow me to elaborate...

IT'S A SMOKESCREEN

Bertie under the cosh, hospitals closing down. This is a sad attempt to warm the hearts of the grassroots and to try and attract young people to the party.

well it caused Something the FF party was recruiting in the University of Ulster yesterday, people joined.

McArmalite

Jackie laughlin wrote:

Zambia,
Yes, the term SF/IRA does annoy those trying to wriggle out of responsibility for their crimes. The fact that people vote for a criminal doesn't exonerate that person.

Does that include those who voted for Offical Sinn Fein or their political covernames, Workers Party, Democratic Left/ Offical IRA also ? ( For those of you who may be too young to know what Offical Sinn Fein/Offical IRA was http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Offical_Sinn_Fein , they were nicknamed 'the Stickies', Offical SF became SF the Workers Party, then the Workers Party then Democratic Left. Eoghan Harass [Harris] was a leading member of it - need I say anymore. )

And how come your reluctant to label say, Ulster Unionists/Orange Order ? or RUC/UDA or British Intelligence/ UVF ?

As you describe yourself as a 'Marxist' you seem to have quite a similiar viewpoint as their policies on the 6 occupied counties, but I'm not suggesting for a second your a Stickie Jackie . Instead of being labeled a 'Stickie' - would the term Marxist/Unionist be more in line with your views

Zambia

McArmalite wrote:

need I say anymore.

I really wish you wouldnt ....as once again a piontless diatribe.

Jackie laughlin

Voip and Zambia,
It's just not possible to discuss N.I. politics without reference to atrocities committed in the recent past. You can call that going round in circles, if you like but that won't change anything. Banning terminology or certain views here would be a political act.

Who did what to whom is an issue. All parties are not equally guilty. Some were worse than others. Some were innocent.

As I said above, a monument will cause a controversy. The guilty will try to have a lie engraved.

McArm,
I can try to clarify my position for you again but you'll soon be back with more abuse.
For the record: I am a socialist, I am heavily influenced by Marx and find his work remains relevant - though it must be re-interpreted for this century and cannot be reduced to the status of a sacred document - I am not a Unionist, political violence has brought nothing but misery to our people, I take great pleasure in being Irish, I love the culture - Gaelic, Anglo-Irish, Hiberno-English and all combinations - I love the Irish language. I like red wine, I had toast for breakfast, The Undertones "Teenage Kicks" is the finest recording ever by an Irish act, The Wolfe Tones are ****e and so are the Irish Tenors.

Jackie laughlin

Those asterisks above are not my handiwork and represent a puny assault on free speech.

Fratton Fred

I remember listening to a Mo Mowlem interview once and she was being asked about the peace process and how complicated it is.

She said that her and (I think) General De Chastelaine were attending a community meeting trying to promote the peace talks and the GFA. They were talking about reconciliation, forgiveness etc and a lady stood up and said she supported the peace movement, but that man (Pointing to someone three rows in front of her) killed my son, has been released and is living in her street.

That kind of make you appreciate how long this process could take. A lot of people in NI are living with daily reminders of the violence.

I know it is off topic, but that interview with Mo Mowlem was a real eye opener for me. Hopefully she will get the recognition she deserves in all this as well.

McArmalite

Jackie laughlin wrote:

McArm,
I can try to clarify my position for you again but you'll soon be back with more abuse.
For the record: I am a socialist, I am heavily influenced by Marx and find his work remains relevant - though it must be re-interpreted for this century and cannot be reduced to the status of a sacred document - I am not a Unionist, political violence has brought nothing but misery to our people,

Here we go again, a, I look like a duck, quack like a duck, waddle like a duck etc but I'm not a duck, type answer. As I have said about your postings before, you use the strongest possible language in describing actions of the 'baddie' IRA ( 1969 - onwards) but the mildest, token criticism for british violence and british inspired violence of the unionists/loyalists. You'd almost think the Provos were the ones who actually created partition back in 1922.

" political violence has brought nothing but misery to our people " Anyone coming out with cliches about the misery all communities have sufffered etc, etc is nothing but hypocrisy and bare faced lies. The people who suffered the worst misery resulting from political violence were the nationalists entrapped behind the secterian wall of partition. Their misery did not start with the formation of the Provos in 1969, but back in 1922 and indeed beyond, though if you were to listen to some you'd think it was the Provos and not the brits/unionists/loyalists etc who respondcible for the conditions that created the troubles. I am not going to say the Provos were by any means a squeaky clean bunch of freedom fighters, but neither were the 'goodie' IRA of 1916 - 1921 either, or any other clandestine armed group.
James Connolly actually predicted that as bad as their position was in an all Ireland dominated by britain, that their position would vastly worse if the country was partitioned. Unfortunately he was right.

But still as Voipjunkie writes regarding FF in the occupied counties I also would have thought that a nationalist or even a Marxist anyone " would welcome it as a start to the realignment of politics on the island as a whole. "

I'm as guilty as anyone around here but as Voipjunkie also states " terms like SF/IRA could be banned it drags discussions on the north continually back to who did what and when that have been argued over and over already. The only purpose it seems to serve is to get peoples backs up. " But if you are going to use the term SF/IRA, don't be a hypocrite and ignore Ulster Unionists/Orange Order, DUP/Ulster Restance, RUC/UDA, brit intellingce/UVF etc.

Ofcourse no one would still think that much of your political thoughts are very similiar to Offical SF/ Offical IRA Jackie

Jackie laughlin

Fratton,
Your MM story is spot on. There would be some possibility of a break with the past if the murderers and their associates would make some attempt to stay out of the public spotlight. However, they want to be "respected" and "recognised" as heroes. They could be let live quietly with their shame but instead they flaunt themselves shamelessly.

McArm,
I grow weary. Do you read the posts? I've said explicitly that I see no moral difference between the "old" and the "new" IRA, and you can throw in the Official IRA as well.

I've also said that crimes committed by the RUC and the British army should be treated more seriously and punished more harshly because they were supposed to protect people.

When the Officials were active, they tried to recruit me. I rejected their approaches on two grounds: 1) they had a private army; 2) they were a disciplined, democratic centrist party in the tradition of Lenin and Stalin. I was offended that I should be thought a suitable candidate for recruitment.

There IS a hierarchy of guilt. Everyone is NOT equally to blame. However, recognising this does not exonerate ANYONE.

Every time I see that video footage from the Le Mon bombing where the bodies are being removed on shovels, I'll reflect on your point about who has suffered most.

guinnessdrinker

Just going back to the original point of the thread.

Its going to be interesting to watch what happens, I think FF are serious about orgainising in the North this time. I heard Dermot Ahern being interviewed on bbc and he seemed serious but wasnt sure yet of the exact plan apart from them not standing in Westminster elections. Althought he did mention that one of FF's objectives was a United Ireland.

But I was just wondering recently, why didn't FF organise in the North in 1926? Or did they, maybe someone else can answer.

McArmalite

guinnessdrinker wrote:

Just going back to the original point of the thread.

Its going to be interesting to watch what happens, I think FF are serious about orgainising in the North this time. I heard Dermot Ahern being interviewed on bbc and he seemed serious but wasnt sure yet of the exact plan apart from them not standing in Westminster elections. Althought he did mention that one of FF's objectives was a United Ireland.

But I was just wondering recently, why didn't FF organise in the North in 1926? Or did they, maybe someone else can answer.

Well when Mark Durcan gives it a cautious welcome it looks like something is afoot. But still as Voipjunkie writes regarding FF in the occupied counties " would welcome it as a start to the realignment of politics on the island as a whole. " Certainly SF should be fearing them ,look what FF did to them at the last election in the 26 co's

After August 1969 they were demands by the genuine nationalist minority in FF (most genuine nationalists in FF seen the bunch of bluffers FF were and left after that ), but Jack 'we wouldn't stand idly by' Lynch and co vetoed it.

What I have always wondered - why haven't the stoops (sdlp) not always wanted to jump upon the FF graveytrain of money in brown paper bags, wealthy friends 'donating' to the party like Ben Dunne, EU handouts, etc ??

Jackie laughlin

Fantastic!

Gobán Saor

And if FF contest and win MLA seats will they then be in favour of speaking rights in the Dáil for their MLA's? Voting rights? Interesting dilemma.....

Jackie laughlin

Speaking rights for just one party's MLAs would be selective to say the least. Why would the issue arise? Come to think of it, the argument implies speaking rights for TDs in N.I!

Voipjunkie

Jackie laughlin wrote:

Voip and Zambia,
It's just not possible to discuss N.I. politics without reference to atrocities committed in the recent past. You can call that going round in circles, if you like but that won't change anything. Banning terminology or certain views here would be a political act.

Who did what to whom is an issue. All parties are not equally guilty. Some were worse than others. Some were innocent.

As I said above, a monument will cause a controversy. The guilty will try to have a lie engraved.

.

It is not about banning views I believe you are perfectly capable of presenting your views without having to climb into the bunkers of using phrases like SF/IRA everyone posting here is fully aware of the connections between the 2 organisations just as everyone is aware of the connections between the PSNI and the RUC or the Orange Order and the UUP and the PUP and the UVF and the British army etc etc.
The PIRA are out of the equation now so there is no real need to mention them whilst talking about SF just as there is no need to mention the OIRA when talking about the Labour Party

FTA69

Jackie laughlin wrote:

grow weary. Do you read the posts? I've said explicitly that I see no moral difference between the "old" and the "new" IRA, and you can throw in the Official IRA as well.

Sure you're in the Labour party which contains a load of ex-Sticks, including the bould Pat Rabbite who found himself in quite a "sticky" situation when the police found a plate for counterfeit fivers in his office. Not to mention the Labour members in Cork who were involved in a feud with Saor Éire in the early seventies. Hypocrisy of the highest degree.

Every time I see that video footage from the Le Mon bombing where the bodies are being removed on shovels, I'll reflect on your point about who has suffered most.

Emotive bullsh*t, we can swap stories like that all day.

DublinDes

FTA69 wrote:

Jackie laughlin wrote:

Sure you're in the Labour party which contains a load of ex-Sticks, including the bould Pat Rabbite who found himself in quite a "sticky" situation when the police found a plate for counterfeit fivers in his office. Not to mention the Labour members in Cork who were involved in a feud with Saor Éire in the early seventies. Hypocrisy of the highest degree.

Emotive bullsh*t, we can swap stories like that all day.

Weren't the Stickies also invovled with North Korea and making counterfeit dollars. I think ex 'unoffical' Offical IRA and high ranking stickie member Sean Garland was wanted up in the North for some scam invovling North Korea and making counterfeit dollars.

The stickies also at one point hailed Ceausescu's Romania as the most advanced workers state in the world - SERIOUS. Obviously Ceausescu was throwing them a few bob.

Jackie laughlin

Voip,
What exactly is wrong with "emotive" argument? Surely argument should be stated as strongly as possible.

Unfortunately the IRA still exists and I don't know why. My understanding is that SF is subordinate to the "army council". Has this changed? If so, when and who made the decision?

On a personal note. I have twice thought very seriously about leaving the Labour Party. Once was when the party "absorbed" Democratic Left. The second time was more recently, when the party had dealings with SF or SF/IRA. I remained essentially because there is nowhere else for a socialist to go. However, I still think that the divide which precedes left and right in Ireland is between violence and politics.