Fianna Fail 32 county coup?

Liam Byrne

Jackie laughlin wrote:

However, I still think that the divide which precedes left and right in Ireland is between violence and politics.

Not quite - there's also the corruption/no-corruption stance, and the ethics/promise everything and then renege benchmarks, although I'm beginning to think that there are very few politicians who stand on the proper side of those two, especially after all those two-faces FF cowards who voiced their support on various issues voted with the Government and in support of Bertie last week.

The best thing that could happen is that FF do look north and make gains there....then they might feck off up there entirely and leave someone who's capable of heading an actual democracy down here where they'll actually listen to people and make proper - and accountable - decisions.

Jackie laughlin

Liam,
I would be the last person to minimise the importance of honesty and accountability. I mean a decent person - never mind a Taoiseach - shouldn't even be talking to the type who walks around with thousands in briefcase. However, such concerns are insignificant in relation to a choice between murder and constitutional poltics.

Liam Byrne

Don't get me wrong, Jackie - having gone to college with Ben O'Sullivan's son it still sickens me to see Gerry Adams, the Ferris' & Co apologising for and supporting the scumbags involved, and for that one event there were thousands of others.

Another thing that galls me is that the extremists have hijacked the phrase "nationalist" and "republican", leaving normal people who would, in theory, like to see a United Ireland if everything worked out, subjected to guilt-by-[unintended and unwanted]-association.

But you're right - once someone views it as "acceptable" to target innocent civilians - whatever "side" they're on - then they are, in my book, scum.....

Voipjunkie

Jackie laughlin wrote:

Voip,
What exactly is wrong with "emotive" argument? Surely argument should be stated as strongly as possible.

Unfortunately the IRA still exists and I don't know why. My understanding is that SF is subordinate to the "army council". Has this changed? If so, when and who made the decision?

On a personal note. I have twice thought very seriously about leaving the Labour Party. Once was when the party "absorbed" Democratic Left. The second time was more recently, when the party had dealings with SF or SF/IRA. I remained essentially because there is nowhere else for a socialist to go. However, I still think that the divide which precedes left and right in Ireland is between violence and politics.

If the IRA exists it is in name only they have no weapons they have no structure they have chosen the political route. They are out of the question in the same way that the OIRA is out of the equation in relation to the Labour Party.

My understanding is that SF has recognised the PSNI and the courts so any claim that they are really under the control of the IRA or that they are in any way subversive or revolutionary is bogus.

I do not know the inner workings of the IRA no more than you but it would be very hard to convince me that the PIRA is a threat or in control of anything let alone SF and it was clearly SF that was in control for the last number of years of the IRA arguably since the late 80s. As IRA actions were viewed more and more in the terms of political advantage or disadvantage to SF and once it became clear that SF was not going to prosper while the IRA was in business the IRA began to wind down.

CptSternn

FF will never be able to pull off gaining seats in the North. They know this. They will however try because they have much power in the Republic and more money than they know what to do with - so they are spending it on getting seats in the North.

Why? Because they have seen the writing on the wall. There will be a 32 county republic in our lifetime. When that happens, Sinn Fein will become the largest political party because they will be the only party with seats in both parts of Ireland and a large voter base in both parts.

Bertie has fought the new Northern government since it was discussed a few years back. FF did NOTHING to help the peace process, and only showed up *after* the fact for the photo op.

FF is still not being helpful in the All Ireland agenda and is stalling many key parts, holding them up in committee and what not in efforts to slow down the unification.

Why? Because they want to get themselves up and running in the North before the country joins as one and they lose the upper hand.

Liam Byrne

Voipjunkie wrote:

My understanding is that SF has recognised the PSNI and the courts so any claim that they are really under the control of the IRA or that they are in any way subversive or revolutionary is bogus.

SF might "recognise" the PSNI, but at least some of their members do not "recognise" the Gardai.

If this were an isolated incident that was condemned, then you could easily say "that's an individual, not the organisation, and the same could apply to any organisation - they're not responsible for their more psychotic/criminal members"

But unfortunately, when you see Gerry Adams or Treasa Ferris backing these guys up and getting photo calls with them, you have to wonder.

And yes, you can see the same happening with FF "supporting" their dodgy members until they're completely caught out, or a travellers' organisation supporting the thugs in their midst instead of representing their normal, law-abiding members, but that doesn't mean that it's acceptable.

CptSternn wrote:

FF did NOTHING to help the peace process

Might be true, but at least they didn't do anything to set it back years, either....unless you include that scumbag Haughey trying at one stage.....

Jackie laughlin

Voip,
The IRA exists. What is it for?





What is the difference between a "peace process" and "peace"?

FTA69

The IRA exists. What is it for?

To provide some semblance of a structure for thousands of demobilised militants, (most of whom are getting on with their lives and having nothing to do with the IRA or Sinn Féin). In recent years the IRA has also been used to co-ordinate "debate" within Sinn Féin and basically to keep some IRA members who are active in Sinn Féin under control and not to be disturbing Gerry's hegemony.

My understanding is that SF is subordinate to the "army council". Has this changed? If so, when and who made the decision?

The IRA Army Council is now a symbolic entity, it has no real power or influence within Provisional Republicanism. Gerry Adams is boss, and there is absolutely no-one who comes close to rivalling his hegemony within the above.

oscarBravo

Polite reminder to all participants: please re-read the thread title before posting, to ensure your post is on-topic.

Jackie laughlin

FTA69,
If the demobilised militants have now nothing to do with "the struggle", why do they need any semblance of a structure?

Are you saying that the IRA is now an internal SF disciplinary force?

If the IRA Army Council is now a symbolic entity, when did it become so and who decided or are you saying that Adams controls the votes within this body?

oscarBravo

Did you miss the post just above yours, Jackie?

Note: that was a rhetorical question. Please keep any future contributions on-topic.

Voipjunkie

Interesting article in the Pheonix which basically says that FF thinks the SDLP are ****ed and that they want to reign in the shinners bit

Also they plan on contesting the assembly in 2011 and hope to wipe SFs eye by having ministers North and South facing each other and "proving" that they are the true republican party.

Tankman

this is a stupid move by Fianna fail. A united ireland is yesterdays dream. we need to concentrate on removing corruption and improving the economy. lets the terrorists from both sides rule themselves they have no place in my country.

Jackie laughlin

I had forgotten until reminded by a piece on radio today that DeValera had held a seat in Ulster.

Voipjunkie

Jackie laughlin wrote: »

I had forgotten until reminded by a piece on radio today that DeValera had held a seat in Ulster.

When he was elected was it as an independent or for FF ( I know he was in FF and actually was Taoiseach (well head of government) at the time but did he stand as a FF candidate)

Jackie laughlin

Voip,
I don't know. I merely recalled that I had heard it as a boast years ago among FF members. I'll try to look it up, when I get a minute to spare.

Voipjunkie

Jackie laughlin wrote: »

Voip,
I don't know. I merely recalled that I had heard it as a boast years ago among FF members. I'll try to look it up, when I get a minute to spare.

I looked it up but could not find it one website listed him as the SF/independent Republican MP.

he never took his seat as bizarrely the 26 county oath was an empty vessel but the 6 county one apparently meant it ?

Jackie laughlin

Voip,
What was the date and how was his political affiliation listed?

csk

Voipjunkie wrote:

I looked it up but could not find it one website listed him as the SF/independent Republican MP.

he never took his seat as bizarrely the 26 county oath was an empty vessel but the 6 county one apparently meant it ?

I remember reading that he stood as a Fianna Fáil candidate, although wikipedia has him as Sinn Féin/Independent Republican. He would have left Sinn Féin years previous to his election in the north, so I cannot see him wanting or being allowed to stand as an SF candidate but I cannot be sure I'll look it up.

As for him not taking his seat, I imagine there is nothing bizarre about it. iirc he was not allowed in the north and was arrested and deported when he did go up there.

Voipjunkie

csk wrote: »

I remember reading that he stood as a Fianna Fáil candidate, although wikipedia has him as Sinn Féin/Independent Republican. He would have left Sinn Féin years previous to his election in the north, so I cannot see him wanting or being allowed to stand as an SF candidate but I cannot be sure I'll look it up.

As for him not taking his seat, I imagine there is nothing bizarre about it. iirc he was not allowed in the north and was arrested and deported when he did go up there.

Yeah he would have been a SF candidate when he took the seat first I guess that means that he was an Independent Republican when he was in FF

I would imagine that once he was elected they could not prevent him from taking his seat legally.
In fairness though as he was Taoiseach at the time the security implications of taking his seat in Stormont would probably have prevented him even if he had wanted to.

Jackie laughlin

Voip, Csk,
This is interesting. Thanks. What are the dates?

Voipjunkie

Jackie laughlin wrote: »

Voip, Csk,
This is interesting. Thanks. What are the dates?

1926 he was returned without contest
1929 he did not stand
1933 he was elected again

I think from memory

Jackie laughlin

Thank you.

Bonzodog

So, then, are we seeing a unified ireland by-stealth?
It seems with FF expanding to NI, and the moving of the borders, effectively handing control of the NI ports and airports to the Republic, and a few other little odd moves, that the UK government is actually slowly ceding control of NI to Dublin, and I can easily see NI becoming a self governed province of the republic rather than of the UK. The politicians in dublin and london will say that it makes things easier, and is done for peoples safety etc, but the two governments are definitely in cahoots about it, and I could see this happening within the next 10 years.

What do people think - is a unified ireland with NI a self governed province of the Republic closer than we think?

mancduff

Who cares, let me spell it out for you.

Welcome to the United States of Europe.

EU baby. he he

Voipjunkie

mancduff wrote: »

Who cares, let me spell it out for you.

Welcome to the United States of Europe.

EU baby. he he

Without a constitution yeah right USE not a hope.