Is it so wrong?......

wishingstar

Alright, I know that the MAJORITY of people think that child beauty pagents are disgusting (This isn't just about pagentry, it's about any activity having to do with show business). And I am against it when a parent FORCES a child to participate in such activities, but if that is what the kid wants is it so wrong to let them take a stab at their dreams?

Now as I have mentioned in a previous post, I was every stage mother's dream. My parents do not like show biz, and refused to let me even try. I grew to resent them, I don't now. My parents and I are very close, and they've appologized for not encouraging my dreams (which I've been going for since my 18th birthday against their wishes). Now I am in my 20's and have twin daughters of my own. Their names are Alaina and Aurora and they will be three in October.

Alaina has already expressed her love of the stage and her dreams of a spotlight of her own. Now she hasn't been in any pagents yet, nor gone to any auditions, only put on small performances for my family and I. Aurora is more timid and shy, and prefers not to be the center of attention.

Now since Alaina has begun to pine at me for a chance at living her dream, I sat her down numerous times and tried my best to explain to her how the biz really goes. I told her, "It's not all fun Alaina, it's a lot of hard work, and you don't always win or get what you want. I'll let you try in a little while (probably in a couple of months or a year), but the first time you tell me 'mom I don't like this' or 'mom this isn't fun' is the last time we do anything having to do with show biz." Which is why I hate to get her started so young.

Alaina and Aurora are both enrolled in ballet, tap, hip hop (hip hop and tap are joined as one class, half and half, and neither goes very far into the dancing style, it's strictly intro), and karate. And they both enjoy it. So I don't see what's wrong in allowing your child to chase their dreams as long as THEY are the ones who WANT to participate and they aren't doing it just to please mommy or daddy. Is that so wrong?

nesf

You have two year olds doing karate and ballet?

wishingstar

yep, almost three, teacher let me sign them up for ballet because they are only 1 month away from being three that's the youngest that she will take. The karate instructor they go to starts off at age 2

wishingstar

just let me add this before I get beheaded for putting my children into activities so young...

They didn't start the dance classes until one month ago, and were only permitted because they are so close to being three which is the usual start age for the classes.

The karate teacher starts off at 2 and if they tell me that they are bored or don't want to do it, I'll pull them out in a second.

JC 2K3

I don't see anything wrong with what you've done OP, though 2 seems a little young....

Beauty pageants, however, are much much different to acting or dancing.

wishingstar

yes, I know it's still young, but they're basically 3, they'll turn 3 on October 7.

MrJoeSoap

Karate is a good one to get any child into. A friend of mine, just turned 21 this year, has been doing it about 12 or 13 years and whilst he'd kick anyones ass he really does have great self-control and discipline in what he eats and how much he trains etc...

On the more important issue I don't really see any problem with allowing the child to enter talent shows or whatever, but obviously beauty pageants at that age are just a flat out no-no. Once its run in the right way and isn't too intense or harsh I'd imagine its fine.

crosstownk

If they want to do it, and enjoy it, then let them at it. But, imo, it should be in addition to normal stuff like school. If they really want to do it then they won't mind putting in the extra effort.

However, given the age, they may have an entirely new venture to pursue in 6 months - children can be fickle, as you probably know.

What bugs me is when parents superimpose their unrealised dreams onto kids and I do agree with you on that.

My daughter shows an interest in the piano sometimes. When she does I encourage her, when she doesn't I leave her be.

If you spot talent in your kids then encourage them, but don't let their enthusiasm become your obsession.

wishingstar

agreed with you

Lazarus2.0

As long as it's the child's dream and not the parents' - and as long as it remains the child's dream and not the parents' - then it is healthy and normal ( although a little under 3 years old is very young to have any kind of driving ambition , IMO ) . Im not doubting you , OP . I've read your comments above which are fair and reasonable . Just mind not to fall into the trap of getting carried away with your kids' current enthusiasm which will probably wane at some stage , especially given their tender years just now . The biggest gift to your kids is a happy childhood which demands you be as flexible to their wants as possible . I think you got that in mind anyway but felt it worth saying anyway

nesf

My only issue is that at 3 a child really is a child in the true sense of the word. Encouraging them in activities is great but I'm not sure if it's healthy to have a long term view in mind with them. Keeping things in the short term might be the best option, right now they might want to do dancing or whatever but in six months they might decide they hate it.

I'd also draw a really strong line between "show biz" and stuff like music etc. A child learning to play the piano or violin is not a child gearing up for the business of playing professionally per se.

littlebug

I've no problem with kids getting involved in these activities per se but like nesf it's the showbiz stuff I'd be more wary of. My 5 year old's name is down for ballet class and she can't wait to go, not because she'll be on stage but because she'll have fun with her friends and get to dance and jump around and get some exercise. I'd prefer her to go to Irish dancing but it's turned into a form of pageantry all of it's own with the wigs, make up and fake tan etc these days. I'd just like her to learn a few steps. Maybe set dancing is the way to go

Did you really have the "It's not all fun Alaina, it's a lot of hard work, and you don't always win or get what you want" conversation with your 2 year old?". I obviously don't know you or your child and you have a different outlook from me and mine but I imagine that conversation in itself is automatically putting pressure on her to have to work hard? Doesn't that take the fun out of it straight away?

wishingstar

Well, I'm more worried that she won't quite understand yet, and I just don't want her to go in with unrealistic expectations (which I know she already has). And yes I realize how much things change so fast with kids. And I see aurora not as much into their activities as alaina, so she'll probably be out of dance soon.

NextSteps

wishingstar wrote:

Well, I'm more worried that she won't quite understand yet, and I just don't want her to go in with unrealistic expectations (which I know she already has).

Understand what? You're sending her to a dancing class for toddlers, aren't you? That's nothing to do with showbiz or beauty contests, I presume. And if it is, well, that's a lot to ask of a kid. Surely she's only going to have fun!

dame

What expectations, dreams and goals can a child who's not yet three have seriously??? A child that age soaks up whatever is suggested to them or what they see around them. Also, a young child will play up to whatever gets smiles, encouragement and attention from the adults around them. I'm guessing here but I bet you started them off giving little performances for the family (tots don't organise themselves), and then gave so much encouragement that at least one of your twins has now picked up the idea that looking cute on a stage is the way to get attention from you and others. I'm sure your daughters ambition and "dreams of a spotlight of her own" as you say, came from answering questions like "Isn't this fun? Would you like to be a dancer/singer/whatever when you grow up?". If you asked her if she'd like to drive a bin lorry she'd probably say yes enthusiastically too.

Basically, I think you're making far too much of the whole thing. I also think that you've only started them in karate to take the obvious stage-mom-ness away. I think two years old (almost three is not three) is too young for classes like that. Why not bring them to some sort of age-appropriate gymboree music and movement type class rather than throwing them straight into ballet & hip-hop? I'd leave the more disciplined classes alone until after the children have started school and then let them decide themselves what activities they would like to do. For example, I loved gymnastics when I was a child (primary-school age) but hated having to learn music. I was very enthusiastic to start with but it just became something that I had to do.

And yes, beauty pageants are a complete no-no for young children.

SarahMc

I can't imagine any reputable ballet or karate schools enrolling two year olds. I would check their credentials, and report them to their governing body.

Exclellent post Dame!

low

MrJoeSoap wrote:

Karate is a good one to get any child into. A friend of mine, just turned 21 this year, has been doing it about 12 or 13 years and whilst he'd kick anyones ass he really does have great self-control and discipline in what he eats and how much he trains etc...

There's really so much bull**** condensed into that paragraph I don't know where to begin.

The original poster sounds like a troll or an american so I'd take what she says with a pinch of salt.

***edit*** Not constructive, or in any way informed or intelligent. Think before posting, and read the charter again for good measure - Foxinsocks ***edit***

2 year olds? What size are they again? Way too you young to be even pronouncing the word career.

wishingstar

dame wrote:

What expectations, dreams and goals can a child who's not yet three have seriously??? A child that age soaks up whatever is suggested to them or what they see around them. Also, a young child will play up to whatever gets smiles, encouragement and attention from the adults around them. I'm guessing here but I bet you started them off giving little performances for the family (tots don't organise themselves), and then gave so much encouragement that at least one of your twins has now picked up the idea that looking cute on a stage is the way to get attention from you and others. I'm sure your daughters ambition and "dreams of a spotlight of her own" as you say, came from answering questions like "Isn't this fun? Would you like to be a dancer/singer/whatever when you grow up?". If you asked her if she'd like to drive a bin lorry she'd probably say yes enthusiastically too.

Basically, I think you're making far too much of the whole thing. I also think that you've only started them in karate to take the obvious stage-mom-ness away. I think two years old (almost three is not three) is too young for classes like that. Why not bring them to some sort of age-appropriate gymboree music and movement type class rather than throwing them straight into ballet & hip-hop? I'd leave the more disciplined classes alone until after the children have started school and then let them decide themselves what activities they would like to do. For example, I loved gymnastics when I was a child (primary-school age) but hated having to learn music. I was very enthusiastic to start with but it just became something that I had to do.

And yes, beauty pageants are a complete no-no for young children.

Well, actually no, I didn't set up these impromptu preformances, they would reenact something seen in a cartoon or a movie....And I think that structured activities are good...you are not taking the way I am going about this into perspective, I'm getting from this that you think that I am just like all the other stage mothers out there, and you're wrong. Why do you think I'm making her wait? As for right now the activities that they are in they both enjoy, and are excited when it comes time to get ready for them. If they do tell me that they don't to continue then they're out, that simple, no questions asked.
Also, no I've never asked her,"Isn't this fun? Would you like to be a dancer/singer/whatever when you grow up?". I let them gather their own ideas, she has also brought me pictures from store ads and catalogues of children and said, "mommy, I wanna (want to) do what that kid does."

wishingstar

SarahMc wrote:

I can't imagine any reputable ballet or karate schools enrolling two year olds. I would check their credentials, and report them to their governing body.

Exclellent post Dame!

Ok, ballet let them in cause they are 18 days or 2weeks and 4 days away from being THREE. So, that is the youngest age that they could join, and yes they are basically three, and that's what I consider them to be sorry that you do not agree with my parenting ideas. And for your information, many reputable ballet schools allow children to start at age three. As for karate, this man has been teaching since I was little, and was my teacher also starting at two, until I was 11 and moved away. And as well, I know of many karate instructors that start kids off at two.

wishingstar

low wrote:

There's really so much bull**** condensed into that paragraph I don't know where to begin.

The original poster sounds like a troll or an american so I'd take what she says with a pinch of salt. 2 year olds? What size are they again? Way too you young to be even pronouncing the word career.

Alright, if you're gonna cuss do not respond to my threads, I'm sorry that you do not agree with the others of us who see nothing wrong with karate. And also, I do not put down any other countries people, do not put down any countries people, or I will report you to the administrators for unneeded foul language and unneeded put downs. THEY WILL BE THREE IN A LITTLE MORE THAN TWO WEEKS, YOU PEOPLE ARE MAKING IT SOUND AS IF THEY JUST TURNED TWO. AND I KNEW FROM THAT EARLY THAT I WANTED THAT CAREER, SO MAYBE YOU DIDN'T THINK OF A FUTURE AT THAT AGE, BUT SOME PEOPLE DO.

NextSteps

wishingstar wrote:

AND I KNEW FROM THAT EARLY THAT I WANTED THAT CAREER, SO MAYBE YOU DIDN'T THINK OF A FUTURE AT THAT AGE, BUT SOME PEOPLE DO.

Aren't you imposing your goals on them? I'm sure a two (or three) year old has no idea what a career is. Wanting to go to a dance class is one thing, wanting a 'career' is quite another!

pickarooney

Is hip-hop dancing what it sounds like? It would be pretty surreal to see a two-year-old getting jiggy, hoarding bling and being exposed to quite a lot of cussin'...

foxinsocks

OP it honestly sounds to me like you yourself are unsure as to whether you should let your daughter take part in this stuff. If this is the case, if you're unsure at all, I suggest you just sit her down and tell her No. You're the parent.

I personally find a lot of the pageants and talent shows disturbing, in that they take young children, and dress them up as adults, and they perform adult routines on a stage in front of a lot of people. I'd prefer my child stay a child for as long as possible, there's plenty of time for adult behaviour when they're a teenager

For a few of the other posters on this thread: The OP came here for advice, not derision, keep it civil, and if you can't keep it civil and preferrably helpful, don't bother posting at all.

Fox_in_Socks

dame

wishingstar wrote:

Ok, ballet let them in cause they are 18 days or 2weeks and 4 days away from being THREE. So, that is the youngest age that they could join, and yes they are basically three, and that's what I consider them to be sorry that you do not agree with my parenting ideas. And for your information, many reputable ballet schools allow children to start at age three.

I really don't see what your hurry is. If the age the ballet school would happily allow them to join is 3, then why didn't you just wait another 18 days?? You sound very pushy. The school agreed because you were pushy, they happened to have a couple of free slots and thought why not take your money and let your kids try to join in. That does not mean they agree with two year olds going to a formal dance class, neither does it mean that you are right and they are old enough for this.

wishingstar wrote:

you think that I am just like all the other stage mothers out there, and you're wrong..

Yeah, sure, all stage mothers think they're different. :rolleyes:

wishingstar wrote:

Why do you think I'm making her wait?

Hahahaha! You're not making her wait at all. You've done the opposite. You've gone in and pushed for them to be allowed to join this dance class, at a younger age than the school would normally allow them to join.

Why exactly are you posting here? What exactly are you looking for? Validation? Ammunition to throw at your husband and family when they try to rein you in?

foxinsocks wrote:

OP it honestly sounds to me like you yourself are unsure as to whether you should let your daughter take part in this stuff. If this is the case, if you're unsure at all, I suggest you just sit her down and tell her No. You're the parent.

Good advice, but you realise your daughters are still only two year olds, so a whole load of sitting down and explaining isn't really necessary. Just a simple "Not now, when you're a little older we'll see" will suffice.
Unless you're afraid that she'll lose the edge that extra 18 days of training will give her when she gets older and it comes to audition time?? :rolleyes:

di11on

I couldn't possibly vote as the issue is so subjective.

It depends. If my 14 year old son came into me and said, Dad, I'm quitting school to be a tap dancer I'd tell him... tap dancing is fine, but till you're 18 and as long as you're being provided for by me, you're staying in full time education.

I would not prevent my child participating in anything they are interested in, of their own volition, but throwing everything away on a whim is a completely different story.

Of course people will tout the success stories... they are the ones you hear. For every success story, I'm convinced there are 100 stories of dissappointment and regret that we don't hear.

Anyway, what would you want for your child... to be a superstar who the world cringes at when they open their mouths (The Beckhams) or a person who stayed the course, has a decent education and the ability to bring their own children up in a balanced way and with normal names.

SingingCherry

I did jazz, ballet, and tap at two years old. It wasn't pointe ballet, it was tapping your foot in place and swaying your arms. And the other two were hardly dancing at all. This did no harm. I seriously don't see what's wrong with it and I think dame is over-reacting. Putting a child into an activity isn't a big deal. They meet friends, they learn to be active with other children, and it's fun for them.

I thought when I was a young child I wanted to be an actress. I wanted to be in the costumes and get dressed up and be on stage. My parents let me do it. Now that i'm older I am no longer interested in such a life and that's how it goes.

OP, if she is asking to pursue this, let it. It's not going to hurt her until she wants out and you keep her in. As long as that doesn't happen, I think you're good to go.

Ayla

I think there's a big difference b/w "show biz" and doing a couple fun classes (ie: ballet/tap/hiphop). I was a student teacher for some ballet & tap classes where the kids were very young (ie 3-4) and it was really just a bunch of fun. It's a way for the kids to play in a semi-structured way...they're not learning any great routines that'll take them on stage.

OP, I find absolutely nothing wrong with enrolling your daughters in such fun classes. They can play w/ their friends and learn coordination etc. No pressure, no expectations. Contrary to what some posters think, this does not make you the dreaded "stage mother".

If your daughter is still really interested in it in the coming years then you can consider encouraging the idea further. For now, go with her to classes and watch & enjoy her youth!

BostonB

wishingstar wrote:

Alright, I know that the MAJORITY of people think that child beauty pagents are disgusting (This isn't just about pagentry, it's about any activity having to do with show business). And I am against it when a parent FORCES a child to participate in such activities, but if that is what the kid wants is it so wrong to let them take a stab at their dreams?

Now as I have mentioned in a previous post, I was every stage mother's dream. My parents do not like show biz, and refused to let me even try. I grew to resent them, I don't now. My parents and I are very close, and they've appologized for not encouraging my dreams (which I've been going for since my 18th birthday against their wishes). Now I am in my 20's and have twin daughters of my own. Their names are Alaina and Aurora and they will be three in October.

Alaina has already expressed her love of the stage and her dreams of a spotlight of her own. Now she hasn't been in any pagents yet, nor gone to any auditions, only put on small performances for my family and I. Aurora is more timid and shy, and prefers not to be the center of attention.

Now since Alaina has begun to pine at me for a chance at living her dream, I sat her down numerous times and tried my best to explain to her how the biz really goes. I told her, "It's not all fun Alaina, it's a lot of hard work, and you don't always win or get what you want. I'll let you try in a little while (probably in a couple of months or a year), but the first time you tell me 'mom I don't like this' or 'mom this isn't fun' is the last time we do anything having to do with show biz." Which is why I hate to get her started so young.

Alaina and Aurora are both enrolled in ballet, tap, hip hop (hip hop and tap are joined as one class, half and half, and neither goes very far into the dancing style, it's strictly intro), and karate. And they both enjoy it. So I don't see what's wrong in allowing your child to chase their dreams as long as THEY are the ones who WANT to participate and they aren't doing it just to please mommy or daddy. Is that so wrong?

I'm confused. Whats the connection between child beauty pageants and
dance class or karate class. Which for a 3yr old is little more than a themed play group. Thats one topic.

Someone denied by their parent, in following their dreams of show biz, encouraging their kids in that exact same dream, via child beauty pageants is a completely different subject.

Is there a list of classes, like these, where you can bring pre-schoolers too. I'd be curious about seeing what they do. For example some specific detail on the classes mentioned, ballet, tap, hip hop and karate for 3yr olds would be interesting. Hard to pass comment unless theres some detail to base a comment on.

MagicMarker

wishingstar wrote:

Alright, if you're gonna cuss do not respond to my threads, I'm sorry that you do not agree with the others of us who see nothing wrong with karate. And also, I do not put down any other countries people, do not put down any countries people, or I will report you to the administrators for unneeded foul language and unneeded put downs. THEY WILL BE THREE IN A LITTLE MORE THAN TWO WEEKS, YOU PEOPLE ARE MAKING IT SOUND AS IF THEY JUST TURNED TWO. AND I KNEW FROM THAT EARLY THAT I WANTED THAT CAREER, SO MAYBE YOU DIDN'T THINK OF A FUTURE AT THAT AGE, BUT SOME PEOPLE DO.

Speaking of ''unneeded putdowns'', maybe you should go ahead and apologise to me for calling me a jerk in another thread.

As for your poll questions... Your kid is 2..... TWO! She is not even aware of the concept of what a dream is. She could see a gun on tv and say ''mummy, can i have a gun'', what are you going to say? ''Now, there's something you should know about guns sweetheart, they are dangerous and can kill, are you sure you want one?''... Tis a tad on the rediculous side of things.

Your child is too young to know what she wants, if she likes putting on show for your family then fine, leave her be. But a pageant is not they way to go.

If anything, wait until she's old and enroll her in a drama class or something. ''Showbiz'' is a big no no.

BostonB

In my experience a 3yr old (these kids are practically 3), does know what dreams are. They also know what they want now. They are only beginning to have an idea of the "future". "When I'm all growed up, I'll be allowed to watch the Simpsons, use the mower, drive a car". Etc.

BostonB

BostonB wrote:

....
Is there a list of classes, like these, where you can bring pre-schoolers too. I'd be curious about seeing what they do. For example some specific detail on the classes mentioned, ballet, tap, hip hop and karate for 3yr olds would be interesting. Hard to pass comment unless theres some detail to base a comment on.

Seems theres some info here
http://www.rollercoaster.ie/boards/forum.asp?GroupID=29&forumdb=2