German Ambassador was right!

stovelid

bugler wrote:

Yes, we know. He's an Ambassador. He shouldn't be saying these things, he is a mouth-piece of the German state. Possibly, we could end up at war over this. And you don't want to fight the Germans.

Pull the rods out, folks.

Yes but what if a large business delegation are going to decide on whether or not they invest millions of Euro in the country purely on the basis of a few jocular remarks from an ambassador?*



*not

meglome

Well as others have pointed out there is a lot of truth in what he said. The issue I have is his job is diplomatic relations between Ireland and Germany. This wasn't very diplomatic and I wonder if you stood up in Germany and pointed out their flaws what the reaction would be, you might have a bunch of neo-nazis trying to do you in. At the end of the day he's a politician so you'd have to wonder what his agenda is. He was talking to German businessmen and Ireland is a good place for business so why put them off? It wasn't a funny speech as far as I can tell and it had little to do with business so what was the point?

digitally-yours

bugler wrote:

Yes, we know. He's an Ambassador. He shouldn't be saying these things, he is a mouth-piece of the German state. Possibly, we could end up at war over this. And you don't want to fight the Germans.

Pull the rods out, folks.

Has to be the post of the DAY !

*me thinks french should have been attacked by Iran if they used the same rule .

Calm down Folks calm down ! its very easy to Charge most of the nation.
What that man was speaking was his personal opinion and he is entitled to it like anyone else.

Tabnabs

Here's (part of) his response:

German Ambassador `Regrets' Irish Speech `Misunderstandings'

By Dara Doyle

Sept. 18 (Bloomberg) -- Germany's ambassador to Ireland said he ``regretted any misunderstandings'' arising from remarks he made in a speech that the Irish government called ``inaccurate, misinformed and inappropriate.''

Newspapers including the Irish Times reported yesterday that Ambassador Christian Pauls told a group of German businessmen in Dublin on Sept. 7 that Ireland was a ``coarse place.'' Pauls said in a statement published by the Irish Times today he hadn't used the word ``coarse.''

``At one stage, I said the question being posed in Ireland was whether the new prosperity had made Irish society a rougher, less-caring one,'' Pauls said in the statement, adding that he made the speech in German.

The people he addressed were all members of the German Federation of Buying and Marketing Groups. Pauls said the question-and-answer session that usually followed his speeches at such event didn't take place, so he had ``no possibility to soften the initial impact.''

``For this I apologize,'' he said.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601100&sid=aQo.kQyItSC4&refer=germany

Call Me Jimmy

Jesus a lot of ye's are so arrogant that ye's don't even care about attracting foreign business? If this guy said something similar about china he'd be out of that country so fast...

My point being that someone who is paid to maintain good relations between Ireland and Germany has focused on the negatives of the country and thrown out stupid generalisations in the most inappropriate of situations. One can only assume he has alterior motives. Because us supposedly wanting the latest cars would mean we are willing to work hard for them...

Free speech? Wtf has that got to do with this?
So if you're in a business meeting you feel like you should be able to say what you want? Giving a presentation in the boardroom and you can just shout out "bollox" in the middle of it because you have the right to free speech? Of course you can, but don't expect to be employed in the future.

bugler

My point being that someone who is paid to maintain good relations between Ireland and Germany

I think that's a very narrow interpretation of what an Ambassador is for. Should Ambassadors to all countries talk up the country they're in? All the time? What if there are obvious things wrong with the country? What if there Human Rights record is bad? What if they have repressive laws and poor economic policy? Where do you draw the line? You want an Ambassador to be a Yes-Man. To brown-nose Ireland at every juncture. Stop dancing around the point and just say it.

Giving a presentation in the boardroom and you can just shout out "bollox" in the middle of it because you have the right to free speech?

This is so bizarre I don't even know what to say.

Mick86

El Stuntman wrote:

although I'd be interested to see what what would happen if the Irish ambassador made a speech in Berlin describing his hosts as "humourless automatons who prance around in psuedo-sadomasoschistic leather outfits slapping each other arses"

Perhaps we should ask Herr Pauls what his Grandfather was up to in the
1940s.:D

El Stuntman wrote:

is that not going a bit far? Does that mean that no diplomat here can never say anything we deem offensive?

A diplomat by definition should not be offensive. If he is he fails in his mission. Herr Pauls should pack his bags.

El Stuntman wrote:

does that mean our man in Washington could never criticise US culture?

Exactly.

layke wrote:

The truth hurts and at least he had the gonads to stand up and say it rather then the legion of yes-men we have here. We have squandered our wealth and I have no idea where the future will bring us.

It isn't his place to criticise Ireland in public.

scorzny

There's a world of difference between having a grain of truth and being "valid"

fair enough.

Really? Tell you what, go drive down an Autobahn and tell me how long it takes before you stop counting the number of mercs and bmws, ferraris, porsches and lambourginis that you see .....

Those are all german cars(apart from ferraris,they're only over the border though), of course you'll find a lot of them on their roads!!

As for the number of cars with the first digit being 9, since the ambassador is probably strutting his stuff in D4 that'd be par for the bloody obvious course ....

Let me put the record straight, I'm not just talking about the pale, you'll find it all over the country.

Take alook on autotrader.ie or carzone.ie and you'll find a lot of cars with 9 prefixs up for sale.

yea, reinforcing my poin they're considered old and due for an upgrade in this country, I think the ambassador was making the point that germans dont just get a new car because the old one has become unfashionable.

Oh, and the last '9' car is now 8 years old. Now, for the revelation bit .... *drum roll' .... those of you with weak bladders may want to sit down for this ... the numbers of '9' cars on the road are only getting smaller.

no need to be arrogant, I understand that, just as the number of cars on our roads from the '80s are ever dereasing.

More than a few eh? how many exactly? And are these senior doctors? or consultants? The problem in the irish system is with consultants who've been allowed run themselves for far too long, not the rank and file doctors.

Again, 'how many exactly?' what am I meant to say to that? I never pointed the finger at any specific level(especially not the rank and file doctors) in the health system, look at my initial comment, all I said was ...

I think the guy probably knows more about his health system and pay rates than anyone on boards.ie

or at least should know anyway.
As for diplomatic spats, I don't care tbh, I came onto boards to discuss the wasted oppertunity that the ambassador was referring to, not about the fall out or result of his comments diplomatically and forgive me for my indifference...don't reply lashing out at my last point, I'm only trying to keep in line with the thread title.

DeepBlue

axer wrote:

I think most people are missing the point of the thing. He was pointing out that Ireland has mis-managed its wealth. We have had a lot of wealth in the last number of years but yet our basic services are crap. Our transport infrastructure is no good. Our health service is in chaos.

If the recent election proved anything it's that the Irish electorate doesn't care about the health service so long as they can afford their private healthcare insurance.

The German ambassador may have been correct but is it what we expect from a diplomat? However the Government are silly to big making a big public issue of this. Some diplomatic communications behind the scenes would have surely been the better way to go.

El Stuntman

DeepBlue wrote:

However the Government are silly to big making a big public issue of this. Some diplomatic communications behind the scenes would have surely been the better way to go.

when you consider that the only other major news story at the moment concerns Bertie receiving massive amounts of cash in highly dubious circumstances, you can see why the government might prefer to see other lead items in the news....

am I overly cynical?

scorzny

El Stuntman wrote:

am I overly cynical?

Not at all... this is Ireland.:D

Lemming

scorzny wrote:

fair enough.

Those are all german cars(apart from ferraris,they're only over the border though), of course you'll find a lot of them on their roads!!

Really? Porsche and Lambourgini are German cars eh? And in any case, BMW and Mercedes are still not exactly the cheapest cars on the market in Germany either despite being manufactured there ....

And further, to follow your logic, the irish should be condemned for driving ANY cars since we do not have or own automotive industry ....

Let me put the record straight, I'm not just talking about the pale, you'll find it all over the country.

let me put the record straight, the logic flaw can be found all over the country too.

yea, reinforcing my poin they're considered old and due for an upgrade in this country, I think the ambassador was making the point that germans dont just get a new car because the old one has become unfashionable.

Eh ... No. Old cars tend to get replaced because, well, they become old and the cost of maintaining them outstrips their actual value and/or reliability becomes a problem. Add to that, someone astutely pointed out that there are a lot of company cars that are replaced on a relatively frequent basis.

That maxim holds true for Ireland, the UK, German, or timbuck-f*cking-too. So the ambassador was making a point about ... no point.

no need to be arrogant, I understand that, just as the number of cars on our roads from the '80s are ever dereasing.

No, that wasn't being arrogant. That was being blunt and sarcastic.

Again, 'how many exactly?' what am I meant to say to that? I never pointed the finger at any specific level(especially not the rank and file doctors) in the health system, look at my initial comment, all I said was ...

Kind of makes the point of anecdotal evidence being something to take with a pinch of salt then, doesn't it? Also makes for dangerously easy sweeping and innuendo-loaded statements.

As for diplomatic spats, I don't care tbh, I came onto boards to discuss the wasted oppertunity that the ambassador was referring to, not about the fall out or result of his comments diplomatically and forgive me for my indifference...don't reply lashing out at my last point, I'm only trying to keep in line with the thread title.

You post, you put yourself in the firing line of anybody else who posts. Just like I have, so spare us the pitiful bleating about "lashing out".

the ambassador is quite correct in thinking there's a wasted opportunity. It is, however, also not his place to say it, as has been correctly pointed out by others.

axer

Mick86 wrote:

Perhaps we should ask Herr Pauls what his Grandfather was up to in the
1940s.:D

Lets start the racist remarks then, eh!

"He had a go at the medical services, traffic, the Catholic Church, the fact that Irish people have become coarser," Mr Mitchell said.

He was right about each of those points.

* Our medical services are crap for the amount that are invested in them
* Our traffic and transport systems are crap
* The church still has a stronghold on this country
* Irish people have become coarser (although that is not the word he used)

He lives in Ireland thus he is telling German investors what he thinks. What did he say that we don't already know?

Even Gay says there may have been a "nugget of truth" in some of things he said.

The whole junior ministers earning more than the chancellor, about Irish people and new cars etc. was a joke to show that the country has become a rich country but yet the essential services are terrible.

Mick86

axer wrote:

Lets start the racist remarks then, eh!.

Like Herr Pauls did?

El Stuntman

Mick86 wrote:

Like Herr Pauls did?

please explain exactly what was racist about the ambassadors remarks

I hate when people are losing an argument and automatically reach for the racism card

scorzny

Really? Porsche and Lambourgini are German cars eh? And in any case, BMW and Mercedes are still not exactly the cheapest cars on the market in Germany either despite being manufactured there ....

yes.......yes they are german cars, ferdinand porsche set up porsche in stuttgart...a german city where to this day they are made and the company is run from and lambourgini is owned by audi(german in itself) who in turn are owned by volkswagen (who ironically have old ties with porsche). I'm supprised at you, a quick google search could've checked that out!!

not that this is anything to do with the thread but just thought i'd sort it out.

the_syco

The Germans drive old cars, have low wages, a shrinking population of "actual" Germans... and also, don't mention the war. Remember, it's a crime to deny it, but it's also a crime if you talk about it?

Lemming

scorzny wrote:

yes.......yes they are german cars, ferdinand porsche set up porsche in stuttgart...a german city where to this day they are made and the company is run from and lambourgini is owned by audi(german in itself) who in turn are owned by volkswagen (who ironically have old ties with porsche). I'm supprised at you, a quick google search could've checked that out!!

not that this is anything to do with the thread but just thought i'd sort it out.

I'm in work. Hence not checking as to the current ownership of said companies. Regardless, moot point since point that regardless these cars are not exactly cheap in Germany either, and yet you will find masses of them out and about.

here's a small anecdote. I just took a look out a window of where I work (Balally/Dundrum, so hardly a deprived area), overlooking a residential car-park. Plenty of '9-something cars in the mix. I'd say from my initial tally (of what I could actually see) puts a rough number on about some 45-50% of the cars down there being pre-00 with the earliest I can see being 94 (and more than one at that). The car-park is, incidentally, roughly 80/90% occupied and serves a muli-block residential apartment complex so is also not small.

Mick86

El Stuntman wrote:

please explain exactly what was racist about the ambassadors remarks

I hate when people are losing an argument and automatically reach for the racism card

It was axer brought up racism not me.

axer wrote:

Lets start the racist remarks then, eh!

Victor

Sometimes our friends are the ones that have to tell us we are being obnoxious prats.

faceman

Ive changed my opinion on this. I found this article by the ambassador on the german embassy's website.

http://www.dublin.diplo.de/Vertretung/dublin/en/02/Botschafter__und__Abteilungen/download__Clontarf-Speech-Reply,property=Daten.pdf

His comments were taken out of context by the media. Therefore he's not really a bad egg afterall in my view.

however it leads me to wonder, the op and others who agree with him, why do you take pleasure in shaming the country?

Mick86

faceman wrote:

Ive changed my opinion on this. I found this article by the ambassador on the german embassy's website.

I assume you are familiar with the concept of damage limitation. His Excellency has realised that he put his foot in his mouth and trots out the old "I was misquoted" chestnut. Since there is apparently no copy of his speech available, and the cynic in me says that the edited version will appear shortly, we have only the Ambassador's word that he said what he claims he said.

Mick86

Victor wrote:

Sometimes our friends are the ones that have to tell us we are being obnoxious prats.

The pot has no business calling the kettle black

axer

faceman wrote:

however it leads me to wonder, the op and others who agree with him, why do you take pleasure in shaming the country?

Who is shaming the country?

I don't believe I was. I simply gave my opinion that the ambassador was correct and that the dept of foreign affairs were nitpicking in order to avoid the reality of the situation. They should have never rang the Embassy to give out.

Why were you so quick to dismiss his speech as "poor tabloid speech" just because he questions or criticizes the country?

galwayrush

Looks like the truth is hurting our people in power,:D

Hotblack Desiato

Thaedydal wrote:

wow you lot really don't get it do you ?

Precisely. Diplomacy is supposed to be about making friends and influencing people, not p*ssing in the host's fireplace and saying "Dude, your party sucks, hur hur hur" :rolleyes:

Even if everything he said had been 100% true, it still would have been very bad form for a person in his position to say it in that way in public.

stovelid

Lemming wrote:

I'm in work. Hence not checking as to the current ownership of said companies. Regardless, moot point since point that regardless these cars are not here's a small anecdote. I just took a look out a window of where I work (Balally/Dundrum, so hardly a deprived area), overlooking a residential car-park. Plenty of '9-something cars in the mix. I'd say from my initial tally (of what I could actually see) puts a rough number on about some 45-50% of the cars down there being pre-00 with the earliest I can see being 94 (and more than one at that). The car-park is, incidentally, roughly 80/90% occupied and serves a muli-block residential apartment complex so is also not small.

In fairness Lemming, I'd say the story about the '93 registered cars was metaphorical; not a verbatim breakdown of new car ownership on the south side of Dublin.

It's still possible to find some of his comments humorous (and quite valid) even if they were obviously way beyond the diplomatic remit.

It's nothing that hasn't been widely said in public and private circles already.

The speech was also to a group of his countrymen. If the Irish ambassador had made a speech about humorless, efficient automatons to a bunch of Irish business men, it probably would have got the same laughs (rightly or wrongly) and had little impact on their investment intentions.

In a week where the Taoiseach's ethics (and the tacit acceptance of a large proportion of the electorate re: potential wrongdoing) are under scrutiny again, we have a week- long bout of tub-thumping over what was, in effect, a silly gaffe made by a diplomat.

faceman wrote:

however it leads me to wonder, the op and others who agree with him, why do you take pleasure in shaming the country?

There are plenty of things I can think of that shame Ireland, not least agreeing with a humorous, semi-critical speech.

faceman

axer wrote:

Who is shaming the country?

I don't believe I was. I simply gave my opinion that the ambassador was correct and that the dept of foreign affairs were nitpicking in order to avoid the reality of the situation. They should have never rang the Embassy to give out.

Why were you so quick to dismiss his speech as "poor tabloid speech" just because he questions or criticizes the country?

people are quick to go "country is shoite, ambassador is right blah blah". Well you're a citizen of this country. What have you done about your displease? Did you vote? Do you lobby your local TD's? Do you demand answers about our health service?

Our nation is full of moaners and begrudgers. But very few of us take action on our views.

Along comes herr ambassador and his speech is quoted and misinterpreted in parts and its all over the european news. (google it and read how it was interpreted by other nation's papers) Are you not pissed off that through this act, potential investors have been put off investing in our country? Are you happy they are put off?

stovelid

faceman wrote:

Are you not pissed off that through this act, potential investors have been put off investing in our country? Are you happy they are put off?

If they cancel multi-million Euro investments on the strength of flicking through Sky News and chancing on a light hearted, semi-critical ambassadorial speech, perhaps the investments wouldn't be that sound?

axer

faceman wrote:

people are quick to go "country is shoite, ambassador is right blah blah". Well you're a citizen of this country.

I didnt say the country is "shoite". Saying that the ambassador is right is not saying this "country is shoite". So please don't try and put words in my mouth.

faceman wrote:

Did you vote?

Yes.

faceman wrote:

Do you lobby your local TD's?

Manys a time but I always hear the same sh'it.

faceman wrote:

Do you demand answers about our health service?

Yes but again always the same sh'ite.

faceman wrote:

Along comes herr ambassador and his speech is quoted and misinterpreted in parts and its all over the european news. (google it and read how it was interpreted by other nation's papers) Are you not pissed off that through this act, potential investors have been put off investing in our country? Are you happy they are put off?

The dept of foreign affairs are the ones that made a big deal out of this speech - most of the articles I have read were about Ireland giving out to the ambassador etc. It is the department's fault this was in the european media not the ambassador's. If anyone is to blame it is them. Everyone was quick to say - the cheek of him, a foreigner coming to our country and critisizing us. How dare he. Lets send him home - when in fact most of the stuff he talked about were true. He was questioning why havent we learnt from other people's mistakes, learn from germany's mistakes and improve the country while we have the wealth to do so. I think he is owed an apology.

Anyone who thinks this country is perfect is living in a dream world that does not make this country "shoite" as you like to say. So whats the problem with omg "a foreigner" questioning why we don't just look at other countries and see what problems they have faced so that we can deal with those problems better than them.