German Ambassador was right!

FTA69

criticised the former dominant position of the Catholic Church.

Spot on. Still, as much as I hate religious domination of the state it remains a tad better than rounding up ethnic minorities and exterminating millions of them in camps. If he has something to say about the present let him say it, but its a bit cheeky him delving into the past to have a laugh at the "coarse" Paddies.

Ireland is sh*te in many ways, but there is a big difference between us criticising ourselves and some eejit ambassador from Germany making us the butt of his jokes while ignoring diplomatic protocol. How he got to be an ambassador in the first place is beyond me.

fly_agaric

FTA69 wrote:

there is a big difference between us criticising ourselves...

Have you ever heard any self-criticism or mea-culpas from the political-cockroaches in this country? Though, I suppose one could argue that the absence of that stems from the low standards Irish people expect from td's, ministers etc.

If the German ambassador p-ed a few of them by not spouting the usual guff traditionally expected of foriegners in the country (oh, Ireland is so great, so cool, I really wish I was oirish etc) I'd say more power to him to be honest.

axer

FTA69 wrote:

Spot on. Still, as much as I hate religious domination of the state it remains a tad better than rounding up ethnic minorities and exterminating millions of them in camps. If he has something to say about the present let him say it, but its a bit cheeky him delving into the past to have a laugh at the "coarse" Paddies.

Ireland is sh*te in many ways, but there is a big difference between us criticising ourselves and some eejit ambassador from Germany making us the butt of his jokes while ignoring diplomatic protocol. How he got to be an ambassador in the first place is beyond me.

Firstly, according to him he did not say anything about the former domination of the church - where are you getting that from?
Secondly - where did you hear he called us coarse?
Why can't others give us constructive critisism? are we too proud? are we afraid we'll hear the truth?
I say fair play to him. It was the Irish government who wronged him. I believe they should apologise to him for their stupidity.

eoin5

Why would Foreign Affairs dip into this, who cares, shouldnt they be worried about real problems?

Victor

FTA69 wrote:

Spot on. Still, as much as I hate religious domination of the state it remains a tad better than rounding up ethnic minorities and exterminating millions of them in camps.

He is the ambassador of the Federal Republic of Germany, he doesn't represent the Third Reich.

If he has something to say about the present let him say it, but its a bit cheeky him delving into the past to have a laugh at the "coarse" Paddies.

So the couple I saw shagging up against a window earlier, the Saturday night drunks and a whole lot of other undesireable situations are perfectly OK in your books?

faceman

axer wrote:

I didnt say the country is "shoite". Saying that the ambassador is right is not saying this "country is shoite". So please don't try and put words in my mouth.

paraphrasing, and i didnt direct my comment at just you. :rolleyes: those that "agreed" with him are hardly saying ireland is a wonderful country with their comments?

wrote:

The dept of foreign affairs are the ones that made a big deal out of this speech - most of the articles I have read were about Ireland giving out to the ambassador etc. It is the department's fault this was in the european media not the ambassador's. If anyone is to blame it is them. Everyone was quick to say - the cheek of him, a foreigner coming to our country and critisizing us. How dare he. Lets send him home - when in fact most of the stuff he talked about were true. He was questioning why havent we learnt from other people's mistakes, learn from germany's mistakes and improve the country while we have the wealth to do so. I think he is owed an apology.

he never compared ireland to germany (bar the comments on the chancellor and the consultants which were taking out of context). in fact if you read his letter to the Indo he explains he never compares one country to germany but picks other european countries instead. The Dept of foreign affairs arent there to promote destructive negativity about our nation. However the event had few irish people and even less politicians. Most people were no doubt goin on what the media published.

wrote:

Anyone who thinks this country is perfect is living in a dream world that does not make this country "shoite" as you like to say. So whats the problem with omg "a foreigner" questioning why we don't just look at other countries and see what problems they have faced so that we can deal with those problems better than them.

who said this country is perfect? You're putting words in our mouths. There is nothing wrong with a foreigner questioning in our flaws as look as its constructive.

Anyway can say for example, "traffic is terrible in dublin" to a foreign audience. However to omit that the government is investing in luas extensions, and an underground line, motorway upgrades and increasing the number of buses on the road and bus lanes to help improve things all of which will be in place by 20xx, is not giving the full facts and balanced detail of the matter. Am i incorrect?

axer

faceman wrote:

paraphrasing, and i didnt direct my comment at just you. :rolleyes: those that "agreed" with him are hardly saying ireland is a wonderful country with their comments?

But you did direct it at me - you specifically mentioned "the OP". Why, is Ireland a wonderful country? I am not saying it is a bad country as I am proud to say I am Irish but I wouldn't quite call it an [SIZE=-1]extraordinarily good country?[/SIZE]

faceman wrote:

he never compared ireland to germany (bar the comments on the chancellor and the consultants which were taking out of context). in fact if you read his letter to the Indo he explains he never compares one country to germany but picks other european countries instead. The Dept of foreign affairs arent there to promote destructive negativity about our nation. However the event had few irish people and even less politicians. Most people were no doubt goin on what the media published.

I never said he compared us to Germany but he did say:

I then expanded on our German experience with poorer immigrants
settling down in areas charging the cheapest rent, which led to a sort of selfimposed ghettoisation, which in turn hindered the learning of the local language and resulted in schools facing enormous difficulties with 70 % of pupils being nonnationals with poor language skills etc. etc.

i.e. learn from Germany's mistakes which is what I said if you care to look.

faceman wrote:

who said this country is perfect? You're putting words in our mouths. There is nothing wrong with a foreigner questioning in our flaws as look as its constructive.

It was constructive criticism. You did say above that the people who "agreed" with the ambassador "are hardly saying ireland is a wonderful country with their comments?". So are we supposed to say that Ireland is a wonderful country? have we an [SIZE=-1]extraordinarily good country?[/SIZE]

faceman wrote:

Anyway can say for example, "traffic is terrible in dublin" to a foreign audience. However to omit that the government is investing in luas extensions, and an underground line, motorway upgrades and increasing the number of buses on the road and bus lanes to help improve things all of which will be in place by 20xx, is not giving the full facts and balanced detail of the matter. Am i incorrect?

Traffic is terrible in Dublin. He "cited a statement by the American-Irish Chamber of Commerce of some months ago where it said that in addition to high rents and the high costs of living it was traffic congestion and commuting which made it more difficult to attract younger Americans to take up work in Dublin." Irelands infrastructure is rubbish for the amount we are investing in it. I see Germany (not saying Germany is perfect btw) building motorways even when they are coming out of a recession. Yet we find it hard to build them even whilst being one of the richest countries in the world when you look at GNP per capita. We have sweet feck all train lines. We built a LUAS line in two parts that were not joined. When is the last time we built a railway line (not counting the LUAS)? I find it hard to praise the Governments transport plans until I see them as they usually tend to make some fundamental mistakes due to bad planning.

djpbarry

I think the ambassador’s comments should be taken with a pinch of salt. Although not strictly factual and, admittedly, probably a little irresponsible given his position, there are elements of truth in what he said (I think just about everyone agrees with this, based on what I’m reading on this thread). Now, it seems to me that people are taking his comments rather personally. I don’t understand why?

Ireland is not the worst place in the world, but, having lived abroad, I can say that it is far from the best. Considering the amount of wealth that has been generated here over the last 10 to 15 years, the current state of our public services is inexcusable and yet we tolerate it. Instead of lobbying their local TD’s for better public transport, people go out and buy bigger cars (SUV’s, etc.). Here are some recently released figures from the Dublin Transportation Office:

• 52pc of people said the car was their most often used way of getting around.
• 26pc of people think only of their car for all trips.
• 40pc of car owners don't consider any travel options other than the car.
• 27pc of all respondents said the car is preferable for short journeys of a mile or less.
• Half of all car owners (47pc) take their car on these short journeys.
• 55pc of short journey car users said they were unlikely to consider walking instead.

Now, I know Dublin’s transport system is not exactly world-class, but speaking as someone who doesn’t drive, I find these figures quite incredible. I actually believe that no matter how good we make our public transport in this country, a large number of people will simply refuse to do without their cars.

The same applies to health, education, etc. Instead of lobbying TD’s, people just throw money at the problem, i.e. buy health insurance, etc. It’s time people said enough is enough, we’re not tolerating these shortcomings any longer.

faceman

axer wrote:

But you did direct it at me - you specifically mentioned "the OP". Why, is Ireland a wonderful country? I am not saying it is a bad country as I am proud to say I am Irish but I wouldn't quite call it an [SIZE=-1]extraordinarily good country?[/SIZE]
I never said he compared us to Germany but he did say:
i.e. learn from Germany's mistakes which is what I said if you care to look.

It was constructive criticism. You did say above that the people who "agreed" with the ambassador "are hardly saying ireland is a wonderful country with their comments?". So are we supposed to say that Ireland is a wonderful country? have we an [SIZE=-1]extraordinarily good country?[/SIZE]

Traffic is terrible in Dublin. He "cited a statement by the American-Irish Chamber of Commerce of some months ago where it said that in addition to high rents and the high costs of living it was traffic congestion and commuting which made it more difficult to attract younger Americans to take up work in Dublin." Irelands infrastructure is rubbish for the amount we are investing in it. I see Germany (not saying Germany is perfect btw) building motorways even when they are coming out of a recession. Yet we find it hard to build them even whilst being one of the richest countries in the world when you look at GNP per capita. We have sweet feck all train lines. We built a LUAS line in two parts that were not joined. When is the last time we built a railway line (not counting the LUAS)? I find it hard to praise the Governments transport plans until I see them as they usually tend to make some fundamental mistakes due to bad planning.

ok now im confused. the hairs have been split. so what exactly in summary are you saying then?

axer

faceman wrote:

paraphrasing, and i didnt direct my comment at just you. those that "agreed" with him are hardly saying ireland is a wonderful country with their comments?

What do you mean by this comment? Are you saying we should be sayng that Ireland is a wonderful country and if we are not then we are somehow shaming our country?[SIZE=-1][/SIZE]

faceman

axer wrote:

What do you mean by this comment? Are you saying we should be sayng that Ireland is a wonderful country and if we are not then we are somehow shaming our country?[SIZE=-1][/SIZE]

nobody on this thread has said we have a wonderful country. im asking you in my last post what your overall point is.

in your first post, you sai that the ambassador was 100% right in his comments (which you took from the indo) and you said the DoFA were a bit touchy. We have since learnt the the media took his speech out of context. Your subsequent posts since your first one have resulted you delving into points deeper and at times, deembarking from the tomato throwing bandwagon.

therefore what is the point you are trying to make, in summary?

axer

faceman wrote:

however it leads me to wonder, the op and others who agree with him, why do you take pleasure in shaming the country?

faceman wrote:

those that "agreed" with him are hardly saying ireland is a wonderful country with their comments?

faceman wrote:

nobody on this thread has said we have a wonderful country.

First you say that because I agree with what the Ambassador said that I am somehow taking pleasure in shaming the country?
Then you say that because I agree with what Ambassador I am not saying this is a wonderful country as if there was something wrong with not saying that.
So I asked you do you think this is an extraordinarly good country?

faceman wrote:

in your first post, you sai that the ambassador was 100% right in his comments (which you took from the indo) and you said the DoFA were a bit touchy. We have since learnt the the media took his speech out of context. Your subsequent posts since your first one have resulted you delving into points deeper and at times, deembarking from the tomato throwing bandwagon.

therefore what is the point you are trying to make, in summary?

The indo quoted the Ambassador as saying that it was taken out of context and I agree that he said nothing wrong i.e. the points he did make were correct. The Government were wrong and were being touchy on the subject by ringing him and complaining which resulted in the international media picking up on it. People were so quick to jump on the bandwagon to attack a foreigner criticizing our country by saying things like "send him back" etc. Why do you dislike criticism of this country so much?

faceman

axer wrote:

First you say that because I agree with what the Ambassador said that I am somehow taking pleasure in shaming the country?
Then you say that because I agree with what Ambassador I am not saying this is a wonderful country as if there was something wrong with not saying that.
So I asked you do you think this is an extraordinarly good country?

i dont get your point. its doesnt make sense in response to what i said.

wrote:

The indo quoted the Ambassador as saying that it was taken out of context and I agree that he said nothing wrong i.e. the points he did make were correct. The Government were wrong and were being touchy on the subject by ringing him and complaining which resulted in the international media picking up on it. People were so quick to jump on the bandwagon to attack a foreigner criticizing our country by saying things like "send him back" etc. Why do you dislike criticism of this country so much?

the ambassador clarified the matter in a statement released AFTER the media had their splurge. And yes you are correct, the government was a tad touchy (and i acknowledged that the matter was not as it was first painted after i read the ambassadors statement half way thru this thread). However it is only on reading the ambasso's statement that this comes to light.

I never said to send the poor chap home even when i had my initial opinion on the matter. I take issue with criticism of this country when it does not present the full facts or allow for appropriate debate/discussion on the matter.

in the context of the ambasso's (sorry im getting tired typing his name all the time!) situation, obstusely negative criticism first cited by the media is unacceptable in my book given the potential harm it can do. I cant see any justification for it. However as we have learnt, that is not what the ambasso meant/achieved at all.

i dont know, im growing tired of this debate, maybe we both are almost on the same page, looking at it from different angles.

what worries me more, and perhaps i unfairly misinterpreted you to fall into this category, is how easy people can jump on the bandwagon and slate the country without acknowledge for efforts and plans to put things right. E.g. how many people complain about FF that either didnt vote or voted for FF this year? Plenty.

How many people dont add their voice to the call for change but complain about the issues the country has?

marcsignal

as an irishman now living in Munich I think the big uproar over this issue is, well, frankly, hillarious to say the least.

I wonder where the German Ambassator got his Ideas about the Irish being coarse ? and his remarks about the church ??

http://img388.imageshack.us/img388/715/frjackhackett2ev7.jpg

Victor

Fixed link http://img388.imageshack.us/img388/715/frjackhackett2ev7.jpg

You mean from German beer and a British comedy?

marcsignal

Victor wrote:

You mean from German beer and a British comedy?

well actually i was trying to lighten things up, as opposed to having any kind of self hatred thing goin on.

dont get me wrong, if a German who was drinking in my company in Munich deliberately started slating Ireland, it wouldn't impress me at all, having said that, I've yet to meet an ordinary German who has said Anything negative about Ireland, or the Irish. The speech was lost in translation, and I honestly think the people most pissed off about it are Irish politicians, maybe because he let the cat out of the bag.

FYI, from what I understand Fr. Ted is an English comedy, only because nobody in Ireland would touch it with a 40 foot pole for fear of the uproar it would cause.

faceman

marcsignal wrote:

FYI, from what I understand Fr. Ted is an English comedy, only because nobody in Ireland would touch it with a 40 foot pole for fear of the uproar it would cause.

thats correct. Rte wouldnt touch it when they were first approached so channel 4 bought it instead. only in ireland eh!

marcsignal

Seriously folks, it's a storm in a teacup, or a Beer Stien. Whatever about the Ambassators 'Blooper' the 'Sausage Eating Krauts' are very friendly and I have been very well recieved here. Contrary to the stereotype, they actually have a great sense of humour.

I brought Fr. Ted DVD here and they all pissed themselves laughing, despite the language difficulty for them.
ESPECIALLY the episode about Ted insulting the Chinese, despite the fact it has a poke at the Nazis.

I can go out and leave my house (which has 5 bedrooms and didnt cost anything like 2M euro) unlocked.
Took a train (which was bang on time) to the oktoberfest last saturday, where there were tens of thousands of people, and only saw one guy (who was foreign) involved in an agro with security.

Oh, and apologies in advance for drifting off the OP :-)

djpbarry

marcsignal wrote:

Seriously folks, it's a storm in a teacup, or a Beer Stien. Whatever about the Ambassators 'Blooper' the 'Sausage Eating Krauts' are very friendly and I have been very well recieved here. Contrary to the stereotype, they actually have a great sense of humour.

Here, here .