Anselmo's white pride speeches on Youtube

nij

Like I said, it's about humility. Like it or not, it's not a level playing field. "Whites" hold most of the power in western civilisation. White pride is a dangerous area to venture into. Black pride? Most blacks in America are African-American. It's more like 'African pride'. Nothing wrong with having a sense of pride about you ancestry (though I still don't fully understand where the 'pride' lies). It's like 'Irish pride', or 'Italian pride'. Pretty harmless.

Whites come from many different places. Some of us are Celts, others are Vikings/Norsemen, others are Saxons...and so on. The only unifying trait in whites, is the fact of being NOT BLACK, so I find the concept of 'White Pride' to be a little creepy. How can a Swede and an Italian get together and celebrate their 'whiteness'?? It doesn't make sense to me.

Blacks had to fight for their civil rights not so long ago, and not so much further back in history, there was a certain 'white power' movement going on in Europe.

All racism should end. All of it. But I make no secret of the fact the a black man making a joke about 'whitey' doesn't bother me quite as much as a white man making a joke about 'blackey'. Just watch Dave Chappelle, or Richard Pryor to find out why.

It worries me when people try to pretend that things are so 'black and white', if you'll pardon the pun. Anselmo made a mistake, admit it. Giving anything close to a defence for this racist tirade looks really bad.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

I didn't say we did, but we do live in white culture, most television shows, movies and music is written and performed by white people. Most ceos are white, most tv presenters are white. most college professors would be white. how exactly are white people under attack, that they need to have pride? the world is ours, what we need is humility.

Karl Hungus

nij wrote:

Like I said, it's about humility. Like it or not, it's not a level playing field. "Whites" hold most of the power in western civilisation. White pride is a dangerous area to venture into. Black pride? Most blacks in America are African-American. It's more like 'African pride'. Nothing wrong with having a sense of pride about you ancestry (though I still don't fully understand where the 'pride' lies). It's like 'Irish pride', or 'Italian pride'. Pretty harmless.

Whites come from many different places. Some of us are Celts, others are Vikings/Norsemen, others are Saxons...and so on. The only unifying trait in whites, is the fact of being NOT BLACK, so I find the concept of 'White Pride' to be a little creepy. How can a Swede and an Italian get together and celebrate their 'whiteness'?? It doesn't make sense to me.

By your standards, black, or African pride is every bit as ridiculous as white, or European pride. Can you not see the glaring hypocrisy?

Africa is a huge continent, and there's a vast amount of different cultures, not all of which are black. Therefor black pride is not about African pride, because it excludes a lot of north African cultures, and black pride in America is not inclusive of say those of Morrocan descent. Indeed, the unifying trait is being not white.

Black people come from many different places too, and I don't think it's any more ridiculous for someone from Sweden and someone from Italy to get together and celebrate whiteness, any more than someone from the Zimbabwe and someone from Nigeria to get together and celebrate blackness.

nij wrote:

Blacks had to fight for their civil rights not so long ago, and not so much further back in history, there was a certain 'white power' movement going on in Europe.

Now there's a huge, huge difference between pride and power. I don't particularly think anyone will disagree when I say that white power is about proclaiming superiority of one's race, and there's no way that's a good thing. It's undenyably a terrible, terrible thing.

I don't find pride a necciserally bad thing, but power is a whole other kettle of fish, and I don't think it really comes into this thread. Anselmo isn't proclaiming white power, and he's not shouting about how white people are better than everyone else, so it shouldn't come into it.

nij wrote:

All racism should end. All of it. But I make no secret of the fact the a black man making a joke about 'whitey' doesn't bother me quite as much as a white man making a joke about 'blackey'. Just watch Dave Chappelle, or Richard Pryor to find out why.

You see, I don't find any racist jokes bothersome. Chappelle, Pryor, or even Chris Rock are all great comedians, and I appreciate and enjoy what they do. On the flipside, I don't flinch at racist jokes told by white people either.

I don't think racism can end if there's a double standard. You say it's not a level playing field, and I don't think it will be if one side is allowed to be racist, and another side isn't. That'll just breed resentment. Either it's all ok, or it's all not ok.

nij wrote:

It worries me when people try to pretend that things are so 'black and white', if you'll pardon the pun. Anselmo made a mistake, admit it. Giving anything close to a defence for this racist tirade looks really bad.

I'd actually disagree. It is very black and white. Or at least, in America it is, and I think that's what Anselmo is on about.

Let me explain. Drawing comparison between Italians and Swedes is a pretty valid point when you're talking about white pride in Europe, but America is vastly so a mish-mash of cultures. For white people in the US, there are no language and cultural barriers seperating them, and while the culture might be a bit different in the south from lets say New York, it's still largely homogenous, so I think it makes more sense for white pride in America than it would in Europe.

Likewise with black pride. People from the Dominican Republic for example, might not share anything in common with those from any Sub-Saharan African state, but in America, blacks all share a common culture and language, just like whites.

Undergod

nij wrote:

The only unifying trait in whites, is the fact of being NOT BLACK, so I find the concept of 'White Pride' to be a little creepy. How can a Swede and an Italian get together and celebrate their 'whiteness'?? It doesn't make sense to me.

I had a reply prepared, but Hungus beat me to it:

...someone from the Zimbabwe and someone from Nigeria to get together and celebrate blackness.

This notion of allowing discrimination in one direction to even things out is ridiculous.

nij

It's people's motivations that concern me. Like I said in a much earlier post, the words 'white pride' set off alarm bells for me, and many others.

Neither the white enslavement of Africans, nor the white settlement and apartheid in Africa is limited to any single African country, so there is a common ground to be found amongst blacks in America. It doesn't take a stretch to understand why THEY might feel proud that their ancestors overcame slavery and eventually established equal rights.

Now you're talking about 'European Pride'. There has been no unifying event or hardship that Europeans had to endure at the hands of somebody else. The only thing whites in America have in common is that their ancestors conquered the land and killed the natives and/or that they immigrated there. Where does this white pride come from? What's the driving force behind it?

I haven't seen one single case of somebody defending white pride where it hasn't been a vehicle in which to smuggle some underlying racist views.

And yeah, racist jokes bother me, as most of the time, they originated with occupation armies and powers. Where do you think Irish jokes came from? WE certainly didn't make them up.

Karl Hungus

nij wrote:

I haven't seen one single case of somebody defending white pride where it hasn't been a vehicle in which to smuggle some underlying racist views.

Forget the rest of what you're saying... Are you accusing me of being a racist here? Because I certainly take exception to that.

nij

No, just an objective observation that I've made from seeing this very subject discussed elsewhere on the web. Maybe you could once and for all clear up this whole white pride thing for people like me who don't understand it...?

Karl Hungus

nij wrote:

No, just an objective observation that I've made from seeing this very subject discussed elsewhere on the web.

Well it certainly seemed like an implication on your part.

nij wrote:

Maybe you could once and for all clear up this whole white pride thing for people like me who don't understand it...?

I don't particularly claim to understand it. I'm not here proclaiming white pride. What I'm saying is I don't particularly think it's nessicerally a wrong thing.

nij wrote:

It's people's motivations that concern me. Like I said in a much earlier post, the words 'white pride' set off alarm bells for me, and many others.

But then you're second guessing people's motivations. Why does someone who's proud of their race set off alarm bells? Why does pride have to mean hate for someone else?

nij wrote:

Neither the white enslavement of Africans, nor the white settlement and apartheid in Africa is limited to any single African country, so there is a common ground to be found amongst blacks in America. It doesn't take a stretch to understand why THEY might feel proud that their ancestors overcame slavery and eventually established equal rights.

Why do you believe they should feel proud? You're talking about people who have pride about what their forefathers did, and as you've already established, it's just an accident of birth to have been born into that lineage, isn't it?

nij wrote:

Now you're talking about 'European Pride'. There has been no unifying event or hardship that Europeans had to endure at the hands of somebody else.

Wow, way to completely miss the point.

I brought up the notion of European pride, because you said black pride was more like African pride. I'd say you're best off going back and re-reading the point.

However, as for unifying event or hardship? Are you honestly serious? How about 2 world wars that just about completely shook the foundations of every country in Europe? Catholic rule and the dark ages? The Black Plague!? Europe had plenty of shared tradgedies my friend, and you'd be silly to think otherwise.

Besides that, I don't believe any kind of hardship should be the basis for pride. So either way, it's spurious to think that a race has to have hardships to be proud.

nij wrote:

The only thing whites in America have in common is that their ancestors conquered the land and killed the natives and/or that they immigrated there.

Donkey's. America had vast amounts of white immigration since the natives were killed, so common ancestory does not share that.

If you want to suggest that the sins of the father should be inhereted by the son, then African and middle-eastern nations have been engaged in slavery long before white Europeans ever did, and still engaged in the practice longer after whites abolished it. So technically, black people have a much bigger history of slavery than white people. Why should they be proud? They enslaved their own people? According to wikipedia, in Niger, almost 8% of the population are currently slaves. You can read it for yourself here. So why should black people be proud of anything when they share this kind of legacy?

I think the fact is that accounts of slavery have been twisted and sensationalised by media, as if white people are the only ones who've ever engaged in slavery, when the reality is far from it. Who built the pyramids, for example?

Seriously... I think if we look at any country, or culture, or race, some atrocity has been commited in their history, and if we're judging them on past actions, then nobody's hands are free of blood. Likewise, nobody is free of some hardship. Japan got bombed the hell out of during WWII, but they committed some atrocities against China (Nanking massacre), and China invaded Tibet...

There's a lot to be ashamed of, in everyone's shared history, but I don't think that's a reason not to be proud. I think everyone should have a right to be proud of their race if they want.

nij wrote:

Where does this white pride come from? What's the driving force behind it?

Tribal instict? Same as other kinds of racial pride, I'd imagine.

It's not like people look at history and think "Hmm, yes, my people did some atrocity, I think I'll have some pride in that fact" I think it's just an instinctual feeling of kinship that's present in humans.

nij wrote:

And yeah, racist jokes bother me, as most of the time, they originated with occupation armies and powers. Where do you think Irish jokes came from? WE certainly didn't make them up.

So? Some of the most horrible Jewish jokes I've heard have come from Jewish people. Humour is just that, humour, it doesn't matter where it comes from.

nij

Let's keep in mind that we're talking primarily about America, as that's where Anselmo is from.

RE: White pride -

Why do you believe they should feel proud? You're talking about people who have pride about what their forefathers did, and as you've already established, it's just an accident of birth to have been born into that lineage, isn't it?

I made it clear earlier that I don't particularly understand having black/white pride based on the actions of one's ancestors. However, if you are going to anyway (if it does in fact make you proud), then I'd have to wonder what's going on in your head. In America, I'd be quite suspicious of one's real motivation for claiming WHITE pride, given American history (Native Americans, recent black civil rights movement etc...). What's the reason?

Your argument seems to be that white pride isn't intrinsically wrong. You may or may not be correct, but in practice, in the real world, 'white pride' is a symptom of something far more sinister. Don't pretend it isn't. BLACK pride, wouldn't ring my alarm bells so loudly, given what they've been through in recent history. Please tell me you can see my point.

However, as for unifying event or hardship? Are you honestly serious? How about 2 world wars that just about completely shook the foundations of every country in Europe? Catholic rule and the dark ages? The Black Plague!? Europe had plenty of shared tradgedies my friend, and you'd be silly to think otherwise.

Every civilisation goes through war and plagues. As for black/white race relations in America, the issue is more about what whites did to blacks (and others). Perhaps I chose my words poorly before. Also, to this day, Africa suffers immense poverty and disease. Perhaps a show of solidarity and respect is further motivation for their 'black pride'. I must say though, I haven't heard the words 'black pride' half as often as 'white pride'.

Again, it's all about the motivation for me, and while I, as an individualist, don't see the point of any sort of pride in what other people have done, I still realise that there are people who DO like to take that pride. So the real question for me becomes: Can I see anything in recent history the could possibly warrant such a stance, or could that stance possibly be a slap in the face for somebody else (or at the very least, scary and puzzling)?

j0e

I have been reading this thread with interest but some u said made me want to post

Your argument seems to be that white pride isn't intrinsically wrong. You may or may not be correct, but in practice, in the real world, 'white pride' is a symptom of something far more sinister. Don't pretend it isn't. BLACK pride, wouldn't ring my alarm bells so loudly,

basicly what your saying is, its ok for black people to be proud of who they are, but if white people do it they are evil/racist?

nij

Not only have you taken a single paragraph from a long post in a series of replies, but you've cut off the last two sentences, which would no doubt bring a little bit more clarity to what I said.

You MUST read ALL of my post, not just a little portion that you can bend and shape however you like.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

kill whitey!


--edit

and karl hungus

cournioni

I'm proud of who I am, I am white... Am I a racist? In nij's eyes I am... Even though I most certainly am not.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

are you proud of being white?

if you are, why? have you gone through any particular struggle because of your whiteness that has defined your life, or the lives of all white people in a world that is primarily run by non whites?

black on white racism is as stupid as white on black racism, or pink on yellow, yellow on green.. but white on black racism carries a hell of a stigma with it, and a deserving one. It wasn't black people that enslaved white ****ers from europe, dragged them over to africa and turned europe into a wartorn, ****ed up mess.

history matters,k.

cournioni

I am proud of who I am yes.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

way to answer the question

cournioni

No problem. Yes I am as proud of being white as blacks/asians/whatever are proud of their race. But apparently that makes me a racist, while the blacks/asians/whatever are good chaps for being proud of being their race. As Anselmo says "reverse discrimination is what it is".

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

they're not good chaps, they're just responding to a world in which the white man is in charge. deal with it. in a couple of hundred years, when the chinese have taken over *then* maybe it will be time for the white man to start feeling a little hard done by.

as it is, it's pretty offensive.

cournioni

Really? So multi million selling rap stars are responding to a world where the white man is in charge... Poor them...

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

yeah, all black people are multi million selling rap artists

nij

PORNAPSTER wrote:

I'm proud of who I am, I am white... Am I a racist? In nij's eyes I am... Even though I most certainly am not.

I'm not sure I understand that. Are saying you are proud of who you are AND you happen to be white, or you are proud of who you are BECAUSE of being white? Very different statements.

Let's imagine you said you were proud of being white. If that's the case, my question to you would be, "Why?". I don't understand where the sense of pride lies. Equally, if you said you were proud to be black, I'd also ask why, but given the state of the world we live in, and given recent history (black civil rights, and they reasons I mentioned previously in the debate), I might have some clue as to why.

Considering American history, the white pride concept has undeniably racist undertones, whereas black pride does not, and is more of an 'up yours' to RACISTS. You see the difference? The whole 'white pride = black pride' argument may look plausible in a hypothetical world with a history of no more than 20 years, but we must get real here.

cournioni

Mordeth wrote:

yeah, all black people are multi million selling rap artists

Yeah and all white people are multi millionaires where they are in charge of blacks and asians... :rolleyes:

cournioni

nij wrote:

I'm not sure I understand that. Are saying you are proud of who you are AND you happen to be white, or you are proud of who you are BECAUSE of being white? Very different statements.

Let's imagine you said you were proud of being white. If that's the case, my question to you would be, "Why?". I don't understand where the sense of pride lies. Equally, if you said you were proud to be black, I'd also ask why, but given the state of the world we live in, and given recent history (black civil rights, and they reasons I mentioned previously in the debate), I might have some clue as to why.

Considering American history, the white pride concept has undeniably racist undertones, whereas black pride does not, and is more of an 'up yours' to RACISTS. You see the difference? The whole 'white pride = black pride' argument may look plausible in a hypothetical world with a history of no more than 20 years, but we must get real here.

Absolute nonsense... "Up yours" to the racists? That is laughable. Where are you getting this information from? Sounds like a wives tale to me. How about a white person giving an "up yours" to people who are being racist towards them? A white person that is a minority... Would that be acceptable to you?

Lets just say for the sake of it that I am proud of being white because of all of the things we have invented and created as white people... Is there something wrong with that? Not really, unless you take it from the point of view that we are in competition with other races, which is the point of view that you'll take no doubt. But if black people are so proud of being black, what is wrong with white people being so proud of those achievements?

Your posts stink of hypocrisy, and over political correctness which gives these guys the platform to be racist towards white folk to the extent that we cannot defend ourselves without being a racist. Again, "reverse descrimination".

MoominPapa

It needs to be said again, if the white american experience was similar to the black american experience than what this half wit was saying would have credence, although, the medium being the message, saying in in front of a baying crowd is still demogogary. If it was on a round table discussion it would be totally different.
This is an american race issue, it has nothing to do with europe or anywhere else.
There are more black americans in jail than have degrees, the ratios black solders to officers, citizens to police officers, politicians, company board members etc if pitiful. So let them have their black pride/power they need it.
Expressions of white peoples pride normally descend into Irish american pride, Italian american pride, WASP pride, Scots/Irish pride, and so on. Blacks were robbed of their nationhood and therefore fall back on the blanket Black Pride label.
For people to jump on the PC bashing bandwagon when this difference is raised is about as intellectually honest as saying "before I slag them off let me assure you I have lots of friends in the gay/traveler/gypsy community but..."

cournioni

MoominPapa wrote:

It needs to be said again, if the white american experience was similar to the black american experience than what this half wit was saying would have credence, although, the medium being the message, saying in in front of a baying crowd is still demogogary. If it was on a round table discussion it would be totally different.
This is an american race issue, it has nothing to do with europe or anywhere else.
There are more black americans in jail than have degrees, the ratios black solders to officers, citizens to police officers, politicians, company board members etc if pitiful. So let them have their black pride/power they need it.
Expressions of white peoples pride normally descend into Irish american pride, Italian american pride, WASP pride, Scots/Irish pride, and so on. Blacks were robbed of their nationhood and therefore fall back on the blanket Black Pride label.
For people to jump on the PC bashing bandwagon when this difference is raised is about as intellectually honest as saying "before I slag them off let me assure you I have lots of friends in the gay/traveler/gypsy community but..."

Let black people have their pride for sure, but don't let them take away other peoples pride by spitting in their faces and calling them racists. I think if all people were proud of who they were (not necessarily their colour) the world would be a better, more confident place.

Pride is ok with me, hypocrisy isn't. Also I wouldn't exactly go as far to say that the crowd was "baying". Anselmo is simply highlighting the hypocrisy of it all and making a point. He isn't telling anybody to take action, merely to tell people to be proud of who they are and to ignore the medias reverse discrimination towards white people.

Karl Hungus

nij wrote:

the white pride concept has undeniably racist undertones, whereas black pride does not

Are you ****ing serious?

Because with racist bigots like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton flying the flag of hatred high under the pretence of black pride and civil rights, you'd have to be seriously deluded to think that black pride has no racist undertones. And Jackson and Sharpton are mainstream public figures.

but we must get real here.

:rolleyes:

MoominPapa

PORNAPSTER wrote:

Let black people have their pride for sure, but don't let them take away other peoples pride by spitting in their faces and calling them racists. I think if all people were proud of who they were (not necessarily their colour) the world would be a better, more confident place.

Pride is ok with me, hypocrisy isn't.

You're conveniently ignoring my point. Exclusive white pride is generally, and correctly in my view, regarded with suspicion at best. Blacks in the states cannot decompose their nationalism in the way whites can(Irish, Italian, WASP etc) . Therefor Black Pride <> White Pride.

cournioni

African pride?

MoominPapa

You're still not getting it. What black american can say which nation or tribe they're ancestors were taken from when enslaved? They are allowed to lump themselves together through this shared ancestral experience, whites aren't IMHO

nij

PORNAPSTER wrote:

Absolute nonsense... "Up yours" to the racists? That is laughable. Where are you getting this information from? Sounds like a wives tale to me. How about a white person giving an "up yours" to people who are being racist towards them? A white person that is a minority... Would that be acceptable to you?

Yes, just like Gay Pride can serve as an 'up yours' to homophobes. Not that there's any substantial 'black pride movement'. It would be vastly less appropriate for a white majority to say 'up yours' to the blacks in the form of white pride - that's what they've been doing for so long, and it's partly why it is not morally unjust for blacks to say, "Well, maybe it's our turn for pride". It's baffling how you could not see this. There's a reason why there are no 'heterosexual pride' events.

PORNAPSTER wrote:

Lets just say for the sake of it that I am proud of being white because of all of the things we have invented and created as white people... Is there something wrong with that? Not really, unless you take it from the point of view that we are in competition with other races, which is the point of view that you'll take no doubt. But if black people are so proud of being black, what is wrong with white people being so proud of those achievements?

You see that's just it, you are not saying you are proud of human achievement, you are being proud of whiteness. Why not just say you're proud of being Irish? That's far less sinister.

PORNAPSTER wrote:

Your posts stink of hypocrisy, and over political correctness which gives these guys the platform to be racist towards white folk...

Now that's the kind of rhetoric that I'd expect from a champion of white pride. Let's not go into what your posts 'stink' of, because that's pretty evident. You can't even bring yourself to admit that Anselmo made a big mistake with this tirade.

PORNAPSTER wrote:

...white folk to the extent that we cannot defend ourselves without being a racist. Again, "reverse descrimination".

Did you even read any of my previous posts, or just skim through? We don't live in an ideal and equal world, and talking about pride in the white race is not a defense against racism, it is fuel for it. Read my previous posts to find out why.

If you claim that there is no injustice towards blacks, or no major imbalance of power, you aren't being honest.