Do you believe in Heaven?

Terry

Not sure

Less of the personal abuse there, Franko.
That's not very christian, is it?

MrJoeSoap

Not sure

nice1franko wrote:

Thanks. Tried to dodge it cos I suspected he was trying to set me up for ridicule.

By admitting believing in the devil? Yes I suppose that would be ridiculous.

nice1franko wrote:

His clumsy approach made it fairly easy to sidestep though.

Clumsy approach? He asked you a question, and you still haven't answered. I don't expect you will either.

nice1franko wrote:

slackjaw

Someone's getting a little hot under the proverbial collar.

nice1franko

No

Terry wrote:

Less of the personal abuse there, Franko.
That's not very christian, is it?

Fair enough. He should've got a slap on the wrist too though:

Orange69 wrote:

...i agree with Tar, Religion is a weakness, a hangup from a time when people were less enlightened by science and reason.. a vestigial remnant which will be lost as more and more people become properly educated and learn how to think for themselves..

Personally i believe that anyone who disagrees is an idiot..

DemonOfTheFall

Not sure

That's a general statement not personal abuse

nice1franko

No

MrJoeSoap wrote:

By admitting believing in the devil? Yes I suppose that would be ridiculous.

I've said it already but anyway: you believe one thing, I believe another. We all think we're right. Do you not think it shows poor character to ridicule others for their religious beliefs?

MrJoeSoap wrote:

Clumsy approach? He asked you a question, and you still haven't answered. I don't expect you will either.

The "clumsy approach" was both his misuse of quotes which hinted at his thoughts on the matter and also the timing of his question which, to repeat myself again, came straight after I'd basically said I thought discussion on the subject was pointless because no headway was ever made.

Now, can you see why I didn't bother answering his question?

MrJoeSoap wrote:

Someone's getting a little hot under the proverbial collar.

Yeah, TBH, I did a bit. It's annoying having to repeat yourself.

nice1franko

No

DemonOfTheFall wrote:

That's a general statement not personal abuse

Ok, so long as more than one person is insulted it's not personal abuse.

Ciaran500

Not sure

nice1franko wrote:

The "clumsy approach" was both his misuse of quotes

He used them correctly

Terry

Not sure

nice1franko wrote:

Ok, so long as more than one person is insulted it's not personal abuse.

His post and general attitude speak for themselves.

Sam Vimes

nice1franko wrote:

Ok, so long as more than one person is insulted it's not personal abuse.

no its not. personal abuse is abuse directed at a person. abuse directed at the majority of the world's population is not personal

Turquoise

Not sure

I don't believe in any of it, sadly. I wish I did, it'd be nice when things get tough - but to me it's all just science.
To each their own though.

Attractive Nun

Not sure

nice1franko wrote:

I've said it already but anyway: you believe one thing, I believe another. We all think we're right. Do you not think it shows poor character to ridicule others for their religious beliefs?

Well if someone espouses a ridiculous belief, then there is little wrong with ridiculing that belief.

For example, if I believed I was actually a dolphin, I would expect ridicule.

For example, if a Derby County supporter believed Derby County were not going to get relegated from the Premiership, they should expect ridicule.

For example, if somebody believed that the universe was created for human beings - who are one of millions of species on this planet, a planet that is but a tiny fraction of this solar system, a solar system that is one of billions in our galaxy, a galaxy that is one of perhaps a hundred billion other galaxies in our universe - they should expect ridicule.

For example, et cetera.

Orange69

Not sure

An intresting Q&A session with Richard Dawkins in Lynchburg VA.

He touches on most all of the arguments in this thread. Its very entertaining..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qR_z85O0P2M

tech77

What are the implications of having certainty about the non-existence of God?

Would there really then be an atheistic utopia.

It's a bit naive to think that widespread removal of religious beliefs would not lead to a moral vacuum to some degree.

Human-beings are naturally self-preserving and look out for number one.
Call me cynical but altruism or putting a stranger's welfare ahead of yours would come a distant second to self-preservation in most people's books.

Only the truly enlightened (god-like maybe? ) atheist would put his fellow-man before himself i would suspect. Self-preservation/interest at whatever cost just makes more sense to most human-beings- especially if there's definitely no God.

What would really prevent the powerful and mighty shafting those regarded as worthless and weak. (social constraints being the only real rein).

So surely if atheism was going to be the order of the day it would need to be served with its own heavy dose of alternative moralistic ('non-religious') teaching to preserve some sort of normality.

Then again the new 'morality' could just have self-preservation/'looking out for number one' as its primary teaching, who knows.

mickoneill30

Not sure

tech77 wrote:

Only the truly enlightened (god-like maybe? ) atheist would put his fellow-man before himself i would suspect. Self-preservation/interest at whatever cost just makes more sense to most human-beings- especially if there's definitely no God.

You can see altruistic behaviour in the animal kingdom. Maybe they have their own gods but I'd say it's more likely they realise (or in their instincts) that it's in their own best interest to help their fellow man, monkey, bird or whatever. It doesn't mean they believe in Heaven as apparently they can't get into the Catholic one anyway (as far as I know).

Dave!

Not sure

tech77 wrote:

What are the implications of having certainty about the non-existence of God?

Would there really then be an atheistic utopia.[/B]

Nobody said that there would be. I'm not sure I even know what an "atheistic utopia" is

There would certainly be alot of atheists...

tech77 wrote:

It's a bit naive to think that widespread removal of religious beliefs would not lead to a moral vacuum to some degree.[/B]

How is it naive? Religious belief and morality are not interlinked. People do not get their morality from scripture. They pick and choose what lessons to take from scripture, and this is in and of itself an indication of my original point. Everybody considers the acts committed in the old testament to be immoral beyond belief... the killing of children, the genocide, etc. Most people also don't consider anything to be wrong with homosexuals, despite the Catholic church's teachings. Sexism is also considered immoral, yet the woman's stance in Christianity and Islam is very clear.

I think that you're naive to think that you get your morality from religion. And if it were the case that you only acted morally so that you may avoid punishment in hell, and gain entry to heaven, then I would suggest that you aren't very moral at all.

tech77 wrote:

Human-beings are naturally self-preserving and look out for number one.
Call me cynical but altruism or putting a stranger's welfare ahead of yours would come a distant second to self-preservation in most people's books.
[/B]

True enough I guess. But looking out for yourself does not mean you don't do anything good for others. Vampire bats engage in reciprocal altruism by sharing the blood they collect with others who may not have collected as much, because they know they'll benefit from it in the future. If you don't share, the rest of the colony remembers.

Similarly-- there's a pile of gold under a huge rock. You can't move it by yourself, so you ask a stranger for help and say you'll give them half. Without them, you get nothing, but with them you only get half of the potential loot, but so do they.

More altruism without religion entering the fray...

tech77 wrote:

Only the truly enlightened (god-like maybe? ) atheist would put his fellow-man before himself i would suspect. Self-preservation/interest at whatever cost just makes more sense to most human-beings- especially if there's definitely no God.

So, what about all the millions of atheists around the world now? Why aren't they out raping and pillaging, since they know that there isn't a god?

Explain.

tech77 wrote:

What would really prevent the powerful and mighty shafting those regarded as worthless and weak. (social constraints being the only real rein).

ehh..... you mean like they do now Hitler was a theist (although didnt necessarily subscribe to any organised religion) -- explain the holocaust!

Seriously, that's nonsense, powerful people wreak all manner of cruelty on those they consider worthless, and in religious societies too.

tech77 wrote:

So surely if atheism was going to be the order of the day it would need to be served with its own heavy dose of alternative moralistic ('non-religious') teaching to preserve some sort of normality.

We don't need any alternative sources of morality. The capacity for morality is innate, and most likely a left-over from our evolutionary past.

Again, why do I not kill, considering I don't believe any religious teachings?

tech77 wrote:

Then again the new 'morality' could just have self-preservation/'looking out for number one' as its primary teaching, who knows.

Uh-oh, looks like you're pushing the 'atheists are selfish, cold f*ckers' agenda there!

I suspect that if religion went away, society would continue to reinforce the morality that we already possess.

Terry

Not sure

mickoneill30 wrote:

You can see altruistic behaviour in the animal kingdom. Maybe they have their own gods but I'd say it's more likely they realise (or in their instincts) that it's in their own best interest to help their fellow man, monkey, bird or whatever. It doesn't mean they believe in Heaven as apparently they can't get into the Catholic one anyway (as far as I know).

Well bollox to that then.
If I can't bring my pets, pussy and beaver, with me, then I don't want to go.

Raiser

Not sure

So God created Heaven, all of natures wondrous beauty, each of the Earths magnificent creatures and the infinitely complex creature that is mankind......?

.......He then created harrowing famine, random cynical misery, indiscriminate fear and childhood leukemia; he created the ultra rich while children sleep each night shivering in their putrid sewers, he unleashes devastating plague which reaps souls across Nations yet heeds no prayer..........

.......The Holocaust happened merrily on Gods watch - and he though best not to intervene when Pol Pot tilled the killing fields; when Rwanda cried for help, God sent CNN and Reuters..........

........When a Mother grieves the passing of a lost child, God nods sagely and makes gaudily painted statues move almost imperceptibly in West Cork. When Gods people are ground down by a lifetime of misery and anguish, God is steadfast in his laconic indifference..........

........When the Church sent Missionaries carrying Bibles they carried a message of hate, fear and loathsome ideals to a formerly content and happy people. They sought to instill shame where there was no crime and meted out moral guilt and punishment to the innocent..........

........The Roman Catholic Church's stilted, sick representatives stand before the Judges Bench as often as they stand behind their Alters as the congregations move from the Hallowed Churches to the Hallowed Courts to seek justice for decades of institutionally orchestrated misery..........

........If your God is divine, then his divinity is merely a poorly disguised and miserable pestilence..........

Terry

Not sure

Raiser wrote:

So God created Heaven, all of natures wondrous beauty, each of the Earths magnificent creatures and the infinitely complex creature that is mankind......?

.......He then created harrowing famine, random cynical misery, indiscriminate fear, childhood leukemia; he created the ultra rich while children sleep each night shivering in their putrid sewers, he unleashes devastating plague which reaps souls across Nations yet heeds no prayer..........

.......The Holocaust happened merrily on Gods watch - and he though best not to intervene when Pol Pot tilled the killing fields; when Rwanda cried for help, God sent CNN and Reuters..........

........When a Mother grieves the passing of a lost child, God nods sagely and makes gaudily painted statues move almost imperceptibly in West Cork. When Gods people are ground down by a lifetime of misery and anguish, God is steadfast in his laconic indifference..........

........When the Church sent Missionaries carrying Bibles they carried a message of hate, fear and loathsome ideals to a formerly content and happy people. They sought to instill shame where there was no crime and meted out moral guilt and punishment to the innocent..........

........The Roman Catholic Church's stilted, sick representatives stand before the Judges Bench as often as they stand behind their Alters as the congregations move from the Hallowed Churches to the Hallowed Courts to seek justice for decades of institutionally orchestrated misery..........

........If your God is divine, then his divinity is merely a poorly disguised and miserable pestilence..........

God helps those who help themselves.

Reku

All I'll say on my beliefs for the moment is that if there is a Heaven this sure as Hell ain't it!

indough

Raiser wrote:

So God created Heaven, all of natures wondrous beauty, each of the Earths magnificent creatures and the infinitely complex creature that is mankind......?

.......He then created harrowing famine, random cynical misery, indiscriminate fear and childhood leukemia; he created the ultra rich while children sleep each night shivering in their putrid sewers, he unleashes devastating plague which reaps souls across Nations yet heeds no prayer..........

.......The Holocaust happened merrily on Gods watch - and he though best not to intervene when Pol Pot tilled the killing fields; when Rwanda cried for help, God sent CNN and Reuters..........

........When a Mother grieves the passing of a lost child, God nods sagely and makes gaudily painted statues move almost imperceptibly in West Cork. When Gods people are ground down by a lifetime of misery and anguish, God is steadfast in his laconic indifference..........

........When the Church sent Missionaries carrying Bibles they carried a message of hate, fear and loathsome ideals to a formerly content and happy people. They sought to instill shame where there was no crime and meted out moral guilt and punishment to the innocent..........

........The Roman Catholic Church's stilted, sick representatives stand before the Judges Bench as often as they stand behind their Alters as the congregations move from the Hallowed Churches to the Hallowed Courts to seek justice for decades of institutionally orchestrated misery..........

........If your God is divine, then his divinity is merely a poorly disguised and miserable pestilence..........

I'm not sure that God is perceived by all to have or take control of worldly events, as in natural disasters. In regards to human actions, isn't that because he supposedly gave us free-will?

MrJoeSoap

Not sure

Then why do people pray to God in times of need?

indough

I think its for personal strength more than anything else. Perhaps looking for answers.

humanji

Not sure

indough wrote:

I'm not sure that God is perceived by all to have or take control of worldly events, as in natural disasters. In regards to human actions, isn't that because he supposedly gave us free-will?

Then God is guilty of inaction, when he could of saved billions of lives through the ages and he chose not to. But we can't really question his motives as he "moves in mysterious ways" (read: is an a$$hole).

Mr. Incognito

Not sure

I'm dying to find out.....................lol.

God is very convinient. Bad things happen- I's becuse of your moral weakness. Bad boy. boo.

Good things happen- Thank God.

Man created God, not the other way round imo. No-one happens when we die. We're dead that's the point. Anyone that projects any other theory opinion eg. is doing just that, surmising and usually for personal reasons be it a fear of death, an acceptance or dulling of pain of the loss a loved one or for downright personal profit- The scientologists for example. People can believe whatever they want until they try and forceably subject that belief onto others be it Bush or Al-Quieda.

And does anyone else get the inherient hypocricy in people killing each other in their Gods names who both preach love. I think God's okay, we're the ones I stopped believing in.

indough

So you do believe in God then?

humanji

Not sure

indough wrote:

So you do believe in God then?

I'm assuming that's aimed at me (if not ignore ), so, I'm agnostic. I don't know if there's a god and don't really care too much at this point.

MrJoeSoap

Not sure

Who would want to believe in a god that created a world, then sat back and watched his creations murder and rape each other, and urinate on each other whilst dying? Surely if mankind is flawed then god himself is flawed, so to speak, as we are his creation.

indough

MrJoeSoap wrote:

Who would want to believe in a god that created a world, then sat back and watched his creations murder and rape each other, and urinate on each other whilst dying? Surely if mankind is flawed then god himself is flawed, so to speak, as we are his creation.

Apparently about 55% of the worlds population, counting Christians, Muslims and Jews.

Mr. Incognito

Not sure

Who would want to believe in a god that created a world, then sat back and watched his creations murder and rape each other, and urinate on each other whilst dying? Surely if mankind is flawed then god himself is flawed, so to speak, as we are his creation.

Maybe he was bored and we're his reality tv show.

humanji

Not sure

MrJoeSoap wrote:

Who would want to believe in a god that created a world, then sat back and watched his creations murder and rape each other, and urinate on each other whilst dying? Surely if mankind is flawed then god himself is flawed, so to speak, as we are his creation.

He made us in his own image and likeness, apparently, so he is as we are. Explains a lot, I guess.

MrJoeSoap

Not sure

humanji wrote:

He made us in his own image and likeness, apparently, so he is as we are. Explains a lot, I guess.

If he made himself in my image he's a lucky man. Must get all the chicks!

Tar.Aldarion

Not sure

Pretty easy if you make them.