FFVII: Crisis Core

Retr0gamer

matthew26 wrote: »

I remember reading some sort of article about the game explaining how Jenova is the real villain instead of Sephiroth. I had mixed feelings about it though.

You shouldn't have mixed feelings about it. It's very obvious that Jenova is the real villian and not Sephiroth. She brought Sephiroth back from the lifestream and used him to try and bring about her regeneration. After Nibelheim Sephiroth was entirely under the control of Jenova. She didn't have a body capable of moving about but Sephiroths conscience was so strong she could use him to project a physical image of himself to roam around outside the lifestream.

I just cleared the Nibelheim incident in Crisis Core and I have to say it was very poorly done. There is absolutely nothing new there that we didn't find out in FFVII. In fact there is even less information and Sephiroth is a much shallower character with even less time between his personality change. Pretty damn poor if you ask me. The new version of One Winged Angel was quality though, much better than the appalling rock version in advent children. I also hated how they shoehorned in an appearance from

Genesis

just to fit in with the story of crisis core.

Mark Hamill

Retr0gamer wrote: »

You shouldn't have mixed feelings about it. It's very obvious that Jenova is the real villian and not Sephiroth. She brought Sephiroth back from the lifestream and used him to try and bring about her regeneration. After Nibelheim Sephiroth was entirely under the control of Jenova. She didn't have a body capable of moving about but Sephiroths conscience was so strong she could use him to project a physical image of himself to roam around outside the lifestream.

I thought that it was her body that was going around outside the lifestream (but making itself look like Sephiroth) as Sephiroth only took her head. Isn't there a scene in ShinRa headquarters in FF7 where you can look into a a big container unit and see the body (it was in a room underneath Hojo's lab, just before you meet Red XIII) and later after you escape the cells you find its empty.

Edit: Here's the scene

Retr0gamer

Mark Hamill wrote: »

I thought that it was her body that was going around outside the lifestream (but making itself look like Sephiroth) as Sephiroth only took her head. Isn't there a scene in ShinRa headquarters in FF7 where you can look into a a big container unit and see the body (it was in a room underneath Hojo's lab, just before you meet Red XIII) and later after you escape the cells you find its empty.

Edit: Here's the scene

Sephiroth came back to shinra and took the rest of her body during the Shinra HQ scene.

Mark Hamill

Ok I just finished the game yesterday and I have to say I thought it was crap, pretty much across the board (except graphics, of course).

The gameplay just baffled me, I couldn't get it out of my head that I was cheating while I played, because it seemed as if I could move my character and attack pretty much in real time, while all the enemies seemed to be stuck with an atb, which meant they stood there doing nothing for half the time. the only problems I had was in either large numbers or enemies with attacks that I couldn't real avoid by rolling about (the only tactic you need to beat this game is:

get behind the enemy, back attacks do double damge and enemies wont counter till about the fourth attack in your combo

) I simply can't understand why they either didn't stick with the original random battle/weapon-armor-accessory system of 7 purely for nostalga, or go the whole hog and make it fully real time battles something like Kingdom Hearts (which they made didn't they?)

Some of the music was good, although this was the music that was ripped off from either FF7 or Last Order, but a lot of it was crap and some (eg the battle music after a little while) made me want to shove my hand in through my nose, grab my eardrums and pull my face inside out. On a side note, the music I liked the best was the song that played if you went to main menu on your PSP and put the cursor on the UMD icon, does anyone know what its called?

The story, the whole reason for making the game, didn't do anything for me at all. Some parts didn't make any sense, like

how Cloud gets Zacks memories at the end: He leaves Zacks body after promising to not to forget (seems like nothing is wrong with him) and goes off with his sword. then a while later he thinks he's forgotten Zack, but thinks he has done Zacks achievements(see FF7). There was no real explanation of why this happened, I was expecting something a bit supernatural not something a bit "Single White Female!

. Other things, like Weiss and Nero taking Genesis body at the end where shoe-horned in (in this case to make Dirge of Cerberus seem like it actually fits with rest of the series)
the best example of how bad the sory is in this (and how bad the storytelling has become at Square-Enix) is that we know have 3 different versions of what exactly happened at Nibilheim: FF7, Crisis Core, and Last Order (which, imo, was the best). I can kind of understand changing it for the Last Order version, but to change it again for Crisis Core just shows that Square-Enix can't write a coherent story, they keep adding in crap which requires you to ignore things from previous efforts.

Mark Hamill

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Sephiroth came back to shinra and took the rest of her body during the Shinra HQ scene.

I always thought that the body escaped, thats why every time you found Sephiroth during the game you fought Jenova

GothPunk

Mark Hamill wrote: »

the music I liked the best was the song that played if you went to main menu on your PSP and put the cursor on the UMD icon, does anyone know what its called?

It's called 'Theme of Crisis Core "Succession"'

Mark Hamill wrote: »

The story, the whole reason for making the game, didn't do anything for me at all. Some parts didn't make any sense, like

how Cloud gets Zacks memories at the end: He leaves Zacks body after promising to not to forget (seems like nothing is wrong with him) and goes off with his sword. then a while later he thinks he's forgotten Zack, but thinks he has done Zacks achievements(see FF7). There was no real explanation of why this happened, I was expecting something a bit supernatural not something a bit "Single White Female!

.

Cloud doesn't "get" Zack's memories in any physical way. They were alone together in Hojo's lab for five years, that's plenty of time for Zack to fill Cloud in on all of his escapades. Then when they finally escape Zack dies protecting Cloud (he could have easily escaped without Cloud as a burden) this, understandably, does some funky stuff to Cloud's already mako-damaged brain and he assumes the identity of his saviour so that he doesn't have to face his guilt. Sure they could have put in loads of scenes with Zack explaining all of the things you already did in the game but I for one am glad they didn't.

Mark Hamill wrote: »

the best example of how bad the sory is in this (and how bad the storytelling has become at Square-Enix) is that we know have 3 different versions of what exactly happened at Nibilheim: FF7, Crisis Core, and Last Order (which, imo, was the best). I can kind of understand changing it for the Last Order version, but to change it again for Crisis Core just shows that Square-Enix can't write a coherent story, they keep adding in crap which requires you to ignore things from previous efforts.

Last Order is more of a fan service piece and is not considered canon. It contradicts canon a lot more than Crisis Core ever does (Tifa's father isn't in the mako reactor, Cloud has mako eyes before he could have had them having not been experimented on by Hojo, and biggest of all, Sephiroth jumps into the lifestream of his own volition instead of Cloud throwing him in.) Crisis Core doesn't change anything from FFVII, sure it adds lots of stuff, but it doesn't change any of the original stuff.

I can completely understand people not liking Genesis being added into the original series of events in the Neibelheim reactor, but seeing as Cloud wasn't actually there for a lot of the stuff that occurs it's quite believable that he may not have known that Genesis was there, and in fairness, he was recounting things second hand. Cloud's 'memories' of what happened are fragmented at best. Can we take his account as reliable? In Crisis Core we're seeing the events from the perspective of someone who was actually there.

spookymuffin

Mark Hamill wrote: »

I always thought that the body escaped, thats why every time you found Sephiroth during the game you fought Jenova

My impression has always been that Sephiroth's ghost/life-stream/spirit floated up through the ShinRa building and posessed Jenova's corpse; Jenova being a shape-shifter made it easy for him to assume his original form.
It couldn't have been his "real" body (the one he was born in) that infultrated ShinRa since that body was obliterated in the Nibelheim reactor.

Since he is possessing Jenova's body (and it's form is not constant) he can quite easily chop pieces off himself and reform them into other entities (Jenova Life etc) to occupy his enemies while he escapes.

About the confusion regarding who exactly is the "main" villain or who exactly is in "control" when it comes to Sephiroth and Jenova.

First of all, let's do a recap on what Jenova actually is. Jenova was an organism, with no higher thought, that traveled from planet to planet (like some kind of alien parasite) destroying every other living thing.
It landed on Gaia and started its destruction thing and it probably would have succeded if it hadn't gone up against the Cetra.
Somehow (it's never really explained properly) the Cetra manage to seal Jenova into a crystal thing and bury it under ground. The battle with the alien cost the Cetra dearly and only a handful of them survive (which would explain why Aerith is the "last ancient" some 2000 years later)
At this stage Jenova is dead and buried under countless strata and doesn't see the light of day until ShinRa dig its remains up much later and mistake it for an ancient.

After digging it up, Professor Gast realises that Jenova is not an ancient but actually the monster/alien that contributed to their demise. He quits the project and Hojo takes over (after killing Gast, because Hojo's just nice like that)

Now for Sephiroth's side of the story. Hojo knocks up one of his lab friends, Lucretia, and they decide to inject their unborn child with copious amounts of mako and cells from the alien that almost destroyed the world.
Nine months later Sephiroth is born. We don't know much of his early life other than the fact that he was seperated from his mother and is never told that Hojo is his father. He obviously joins SOLDIER at some point and rises through the ranks to become the world famous killing machine that we all know and love.
He was a pretty nice guy at this stage but a number of things contributed to his melt down at Nibelheim.
We all know that he finds out that Jenova was one of his genetic donors and this sends him over the edge and into insanity. This one thing may not seem like enough to destroy a man's sanity and it probably isn't; we have to back up and take in the whole picture.
Sephiroth grew up without any kind of family and was probably constantly tested on by his father, Hojo. SOLDIERS are routinely pumped full of mako, a substance that is well known to adversely effect the human brain. Not to mention the fact that he is often sent (alone) to kill hundreds of human beings. This is the man who single handedly won the war on Wutai; all that killing had to leave some kind of mark on his already damaged brain.

Nibelheim was more the straw that broke the camel's back rather than the only cause of his insanity.

So he burns down Nibelheim, cuts the head off an alien that he refers to as his mother, nearly kills Cloud and Zack and then falls into the life stream and dies.

It's when he's festering in the life stream that the lines between Sephiroth and Jenova begin to blur. His conciousness does not disperse into the life stream like a normal animal or plant from Gaia because of his alien cells. After a few years of floating in limbo like this he musters up the power to project himself into Jenova's headless corpse and the events that follow are what we see in Final Fantasy VII.

Sephiroth has absorbed some of Jenova's instinctual desire to destroy (he wants to smash a meteor into the planet that he's standing on; not the picture of a rational man) and has completely lost his mind.
That's the thing, he has a mind to lose. Sephiroth has not become Jenova because Jenova was never sentient; it was just a killing machine.

Without a doubt it is Sephiroth that you fight in Final Fantasy VII. He may be inhabiting Jenova's body and he may be stark raving mad but he does not become Jenova at any point. That would be impossible because Jenova the organism is dead and has been for millenia, all that is left are some of its cells.
Being evil is something that can only be achieved by something that can understand its actions. Jenova never met that critereon, it was more like an extremely dangerous disease rather than anything evil. You don't refer to HIV as evil now, do you?

As to which is the main "villain"? I would have to say neither. Sephiroth is definatley the main antagonist but I still wouldn't class him as a real villain since he wasn't really in control of his faculties at the time.

The main villain of Final Fantasy VII has always been Hojo in my opinion. He almost single handedly caused the suffering of every main character.

Mark Hamill

GothPunk wrote: »

It's called 'Theme of Crisis Core "Succession"'

Cool, thanks for that:)

GothPunk wrote: »

Cloud doesn't "get" Zack's memories in any physical way. They were alone together in Hojo's lab for five years, that's plenty of time for Zack to fill Cloud in on all of his escapades. Then when they finally escape Zack dies protecting Cloud (he could have easily escaped without Cloud as a burden) this, understandably, does some funky stuff to Cloud's already mako-damaged brain and he assumes the identity of his saviour so that he doesn't have to face his guilt. Sure they could have put in loads of scenes with Zack explaining all of the things you already did in the game but I for one am glad they didn't.

Cloud seems pretty coherent in Crisis Core when he takes Zacks sword, and nothing really seems to happen when he does so, while I can see Cloud going on to assume Zacks identity, its not really explained well how Cloud has forgotten that he has done this in FF7 (only to remember when he and Tifa fall into the lifestream in Mideel). I realize that your explanation is probably what they meant, but to someone else, who has never played FF7, I don't think that would occur to them, and I think they would be wondering why Cloud is lying to Tifa the whole time in FF7, as she knows it was really Zack who did what Cloud claims to have done.

GothPunk wrote: »

Last Order is more of a fan service piece and is not considered canon. It contradicts canon a lot more than Crisis Core ever does (Tifa's father isn't in the mako reactor, Cloud has mako eyes before he could have had them having not been experimented on by Hojo, and biggest of all, Sephiroth jumps into the lifestream of his own volition instead of Cloud throwing him in.) Crisis Core doesn't change anything from FFVII, sure it adds lots of stuff, but it doesn't change any of the original stuff.

I had a big answer for this, and when I tried to post it, firefox just closed and I lost it:pac:. Basically I linked this video, which shows (with cool character mods:)) what actually went down in Nibelheim (Cloud runs onto Sephiroths sword, Sephiroth thrown into Lifestream from room that doesn't exist in Crisis Core version).
Also isn't the entire thing (FF7 compilation) supposed to be fan service?

Mark Hamill

spookymuffin wrote: »

First of all, let's do a recap on what Jenova actually is. Jenova was an organism, with no higher thought, that traveled from planet to planet (like some kind of alien parasite) destroying every other living thing.

After reading that I'm beginning to think they may have ripped off John Carpenters "The Thing" a bit.

Retr0gamer

I always got the impression that Jenova was very much a sentient being. It was dangerous because it could infect other beings to carry out it's will. Basically sephiroth is being manipulated by the sentient jenova and carrying out everything to try and regenerate Jenova

Also I'm pretty sure that the Cetra never killed Jenova. They couldn't truly kill Jenova so instead froze her in status deep within the strata.

I do however totally agree with you that Hojo is the main villian in FFVII. Evil git.

spookymuffin

Mark Hamill wrote: »

After reading that I'm beginning to think they may have ripped off John Carpenters "The Thing" a bit.

Indeed. The alien can even shape-shift into any form it chooses and small pieces can come to life on their own. Just like when that guy's head comes off and runs around the room! Ah, good times.

Retr0gamer wrote: »

I always got the impression that Jenova was very much a sentient being. It was dangerous because it could infect other beings to carry out it's will.

It didn't infect others with its "will" so much as its desire for destruction and for its cells to reunite (hence the whole reunion thing)

Basically sephiroth is being manipulated by the sentient jenova and carrying out everything to try and regenerate Jenova

It specifically states in the Ultimania that Sephiroth is in control of Jenova's body, and that he is functioning under his own will.

Also, if it was capable of all that evil on its own then why would it need Sephiroth's spirit in the first place?
It's sitting in the ShinRa building in a poorly guarded lab but it needs someone else’s mind to escape?

Also I'm pretty sure that the Cetra never killed Jenova. They couldn't truly kill Jenova so instead froze her in status deep within the strata.

You may be right about them not killing it at the time. However, Jenova is certainly not alive and kicking when ShinRa dig it back up thousands of years later. Evident in the need for Sephiroth's soul for basic locomotion.

Even if Jenova was sentient to some extent before its run in with the Cetra it doesn't seem to be alive (never mind capable of higher thought) by the time Sephiroth takes over the body. He was the only one behind the wheel in Final Fantasy VII

GothPunk

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Cloud seems pretty coherent in Crisis Core when he takes Zacks sword, and nothing really seems to happen when he does so, while I can see Cloud going on to assume Zacks identity, its not really explained well how Cloud has forgotten that he has done this in FF7 (only to remember when he and Tifa fall into the lifestream in Mideel). I realize that your explanation is probably what they meant, but to someone else, who has never played FF7, I don't think that would occur to them, and I think they would be wondering why Cloud is lying to Tifa the whole time in FF7, as she knows it was really Zack who did what Cloud claims to have done.

Well if you played Crisis Core first, and then start paying FFVII, I guess maybe you'd think that Cloud actually absorbed Zack's memories. However, a lot of clues are there to show you that Cloud's mental state is compromised (All of those insane headaches, problems of self identity, all that melodramatic black background with white text) that should lead you to the fact that Cloud has gone crazy and actually believes he did what Zack actually did. So I would think that one would go from thinking he's lying to realise that he's actually deluded. I think that the scene after the credits in Crisis Core gives you a huge clue anyway that he is deluded before you would go to play FFVII.

Mark Hamill wrote: »

I had a big answer for this, and when I tried to post it, firefox just closed and I lost it:pac:. Basically I linked this video, which shows (with cool character mods:)) what actually went down in Nibelheim (Cloud runs onto Sephiroths sword, Sephiroth thrown into Lifestream from room that doesn't exist in Crisis Core version).
Also isn't the entire thing (FF7 compilation) supposed to be fan service?

Did you download Firefox 3? It's been giving me a lot of trouble too.

That's a pretty cool video. Here's the Crisis Core version(For those who want to compare easily). While there are some differences, it doesn't change the general course of events the way Last Order does. Perhaps the fact that there are two different rooms might bother you,

but to me the fact that Sephiroth jumps into the lifestream in Last Order is the killer.

Last Order doesn't feature in any of the Ultimania, and Kazuhiko Inukai, who is not a member of the original team, wrote the screenplay. It is for these reasons that it is not considered canon. It was made to make it more clear what happened in Nibelheim, but somebody f**ked up and it actually confuses things. Crisis Core follows the original explanation much more closely

(except for Genesis:pac:)

The whole complilation is fan service yes, but I'm not sure Last Order actually counts as part of the compilation (Yes Wikipedia lists it as part of it but the 10th Anniversary FFVII Ultimania doesn't mention it at all, whilst it mentions ever other piece, including Before Crisis. I don't know if you really care that much but here's a link to a cool lil translation of some cool stuff from that Ultimania.) Last Order was commissioned as a bonus part of a DVD, whilst every other Complilation title is a stand alone product. Last Order is cool and all but I wouldn't treat it as canon.

matthew26

What I hated about Last Order was how they showed

Sephiroth jumping to the lifestream on his own instead of being thrown off directly by Cloud and also how Tifa was awake while Cloud tended to her in the reactor (she never knew Cloud was there if I remember correctly).

Retr0gamer

I've come to the conclusion that Genesis is by far and away the worst videogame bad guy ever conceived. What the hell is up with him quoting absolute ballox from Loveless. It makes no sense and it's ambitions of pretentiousness make it totally laughable.

spookymuffin

Retr0gamer wrote: »

I've come to the conclusion that Genesis is by far and away the worst videogame bad guy ever conceived. What the hell is up with him quoting absolute ballox from Loveless. It makes no sense and it's ambitions of pretentiousness make it totally laughable.

I don't think that Genesis is the worst video game villain ever concieved. Him quoting Loveless seems a lot less forced (read retarded) in the Japanese version. Gackt did a much better job of making the character believable than whoever did his english voice. Then, again the entire english voice acting cast are terrible in general, with the exception of Reno and Tseng. I'm glad that I played it in Japanese first.

I always thought that he came off as more of a bully than anything else.

Tripping Zack up in Banora before throwing a summon at him, Toasting Tseng with fire for no apparent reason, sneaking up on Zack and kicking him in the back of the head and let's not forget his "Nyah, nyah. You're a monster, Sephiroth, just like the rest of us" moment in Nibelheim.

matthew26

What makes it funny was he did all that just because

he wanted to eat an apple with Sephiroth... Just kidding.

Sephiroth_dude

anybody finish this yet?

Retr0gamer

No! And guess why. Poxy difficulty spike for the last boss. In fact a bloody everest of a difficulty spike for the last boss. Way more health than anything that went before and uses the cheapest trick in the book, respawning minions. i hadn't died until I got to him. I might actually have to do some side quests. Great grinding in a dreadful game.

spookymuffin

The final boss wasn't a big deal for me, killed him after two tries. Then again, I completed all of the side missions before I got to the end of the game. What level are you on?

Mark Hamill

Retr0gamer wrote:

No! And guess why. Poxy difficulty spike for the last boss. In fact a bloody everest of a difficulty spike for the last boss. Way more health than anything that went before and uses the cheapest trick in the book, respawning minions. i hadn't died until I got to him. I might actually have to do some side quests. Great grinding in a dreadful game.

I think I was about level 40 or 42 when I did it, although I think you can be a lot lower, all you need is

to equip curaga (or your best healing magic), darkness and then fill up with HP+s (or HP++s if you have any). Darkness hits all enemies reasonably close to you (one or two shots will take out the minions) but uses health to do this, so make sure you have curaga or cura. In between minions just wack away. Easy peasy.

(spoilered incase you don't actually want any help)

Sephiroth_dude

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Great grinding in a dreadful game.

you dont like this game too much then im guessing?

Vokes

No, Retr0 means that grinding / leveling-up just for the sake of it, is a lazy way on the part of the makers of increasing a game's longevity.

Retr0gamer

I'm only level 31. Managed to beat him after a pretty hard fought battle. Then got to the second really easy battle. Was murdering him until he did a super cheap move that took over 100% health off me. Got so carried away I forgot to use my 1 pheonix down and put up barriers. Two more goes and I said **** it. Thanks a lot for the unskippable and dreadful cutscenes before the battle, haven't been that infuriated unskippable cutscenes since Ready Steady Go in Ouendan.

Haven't got any decent materia, the best I have is cura and blizaga. The minions are a complete pain to get rid of. I usually end up ignoring them and just blasting the sword out of it. **** this game. I really hate difficulty spikes before the last boss. I didn't mind it in FFX because that was a good game but the sub missions in this are about as much fun as hot poker arse action.

matthew26

I never noticed. Whenever I play RPGs I always seem to stop grinding until I'm like 10 levels more than recommended.

Retr0gamer

I find grinding a truly soul destroying endeavor. As I see it videogames are meant to be fun and there is no fun at all in grinding levels. It can also ruin some games, FFX in particular since there is an awful lot of strategy involved in that game you'll miss out on that if you made the game too easy by grinding.

spookymuffin

Grinding is something that you find in most RPGs and I've never found it to be as bad as you seem to.
I actually enjoyed the side missions in Crisis Core, I was over level 40 when I fought the final boss. I'm also a huge fan of the handheld Pokemon games which are full of it as well.

Off the top of my head I can't think of a single RPG that doesn't have it to some extent. Of course there are some that take it to far, but I don't think that Crisis Core is one of those.

Retr0gamer

Well none of the Final Fantasy's have from FFV to FFIX and even FFX only required it for the last boss but there was plenty of sidequests to do to get up levels. FFXII didn't either. The Suikoden series and recently Lost Odyssey have level capping systems which I think are a much better compromise. In fact I don't think there are very any modern japanese RPGs that require it other than some really bad ones I haven't played. Even if they do it's usually for a final boss and there's decent sidequests to do other than the boring ones in crisis core. Of course grinding is required for the optional bosses.

Grinding really is just poor game design whatever way you look at it.

seraphimvc

the beautiness of FF series is the gaming balance,as i can remember ,etc like FF7,if ya more than level 60,you get a tougher boss.FF always provides something for 'core gamer' : you can play it rough level up smash the boss or using startegy + luck KO the son of bit*h,which of course i found that the latter is more satisfying (with a reasonable level work ).

again,FFCC is purely good in graphic IMO.the side missions bored me in the end,this makes the game became a B class JRPG really ,plus the ****ty story,never regret sell it away:D

matthew26

People have different ways of making a game fun for themselves. I know a lot of people who have tried and managed to beat optional bosses without grinding really. That's how they make it fun for themselves. Me? I still prefer getting the highest levels and getting all necessary items to beat optional bosses at the shortest time possible.

davidtobin100

I had no trouble with the bosses at the end. I was at level 42 as I had done a lot of sidequests. The quests are fun for 5 minute plays and are a lot less painful than the grind associated with most games like this.