Port Tunnel

Davidth88

Ok, answer me this riddle.....

Why if you buy a ferry tkt does it not include 2 trips on the port tunnel to allow you to get to/from the port without clogging up the queys ( assuming you are coming from the west of course )

If I was offered these at maybe 5euro rtn on top of the tkt I would jump at it.

Or is this lateral thinking that alludes people in our public sector ( or private operators of trasport facilities ) ?

constellation

Riddle or rhetorical question.

jahalpin

The Port Tunnel was designed to remove heavy goods vehicles from the main roads. It was never designed to bring cars to the port.

DerekP11

jahalpin wrote:

The Port Tunnel was designed to remove heavy goods vehicles from the main roads. It was never designed to bring cars to the port.

Irrelevent. You are only repeating what you were told. It can have other non tolled uses.

The OPs comment was very valid. Automatic use of the port tunnel by ferry going small vehicles is a valid argument. They are dedicated port traffic that can be validated by a ferry ticket.

Personally speaking all port going goods vehicles should have been accomodated. Tax payers paid a lot of dough for this project and its not being maximised. Furthermore the situation in relation to bus services through the tunnel is nothing short of scandalous.

The concept of taking HGVs off the quays was dreamt up long before Ireland experienced huge economic growth. The current thinking on the port tunnel is outdated and counter productive.

Fratton Fred

That is a very good idea, but since when did good ideas become reality

Ham'nd'egger

DerekP11 wrote:

Irrelevent. You are only repeating what you were told. It can have other non tolled uses.

The OPs comment was very valid. Automatic use of the port tunnel by ferry going small vehicles is a valid argument. They are dedicated port traffic that can be validated by a ferry ticket.

Personally speaking all port going goods vehicles should have been accomodated. Tax payers paid a lot of dough for this project and its not being maximised. Furthermore the situation in relation to bus services through the tunnel is nothing short of scandalous.

The concept of taking HGVs off the quays was dreamt up long before Ireland experienced huge economic growth. The current thinking on the port tunnel is outdated and counter productive.

Rubbish, Derek. I think that this idea is very poor, to be honest.

Who is going to pay for such an idea? I am darn sure Irish Ferries won't. Also, I suspect that while there is part of ireland that this will ease access, most of the car ferry passengers won't travel anywere close to the Tunnell, eg most of Dublin, the South East. Even if a discount is given for ferry passengers, it is still empty profit that all tickets have to cough up for. If anything, it is de facto state aid for private concerns.

paulm17781

Hamndegger wrote:

Who is going to pay for such an idea? I am darn sure Irish Ferries won't.

I'm sure Irish ferries could make a deal with the tunnel operator and could then offer the tickets cheaper. The tunnel would make up the revenue with the additional carriage and Irish Ferries could make it an optional service, perhaps an extra 10 euro per ticket. It's a pretty simple concept really.

Ham'nd'egger

paulm17781 wrote:

I'm sure Irish ferries could make a deal with the tunnel operator and could then offer the tickets cheaper. The tunnel would make up the revenue with the additional carriage and Irish Ferries could make it an optional service, perhaps an extra 10 euro per ticket. It's a pretty simple concept really.

Given that the tunnel is not intended for cars, I can hardly see them agreeing with Dublin City Council to allow any company gain a discount to use same; this would open a minefield of other's looking for similar conditions. Additionnal business is not a concern for them, the reason the toll is so high is to ensure minimal car useage in same.

paulm17781

Hamndegger wrote:

Given that the tunnel is not intended for cars, I can hardly see them agreeing with Dublin City Council to allow any company gain a discount to use same; this would open a minefield of other's looking for similar conditions. Additionnal business is not a concern for them, the reason the toll is so high is to ensure minimal car useage in same.

I have an issue with a tunnel, paid for out of taxes, that I will possibly never use. I am sure I'm not alone. Encouraging use of the tunnel should be a priority for those of us who paid for it.

Ham'nd'egger

paulm17781 wrote:

I have an issue with a tunnel, paid for out of taxes, that I will possibly never use.

I may have an issue with drug addicts getting detox centres that I will probably never use.
I may have an issue with maternity hospitals, which I will definitely not use myself!
I won't be using renewed canals in the Shannon Erne waterway as I don't go boating.

All of which are paid or part paid with taxpayers money.

Just because you or I personally will not use it does not make it essential or of use to other people.

DerekP11

Hamndegger wrote:

I may have an issue with drug addicts getting detox centres that I will probably never use.
I may have an issue with maternity hospitals, which I will definitely not use myself!
I won't be using renewed canals in the Shannon Erne waterway as I don't go boating.

All of which are paid or part paid with taxpayers money.

Just because you or I personally will not use it does not make it essential or of use to other people.

1. You have the right to become a drug addict and avail of the detox centres on the same terms as other drug addicts.

2. While maternity hospitals are provided for women. They tend to get there due to men. Its called mother nature. You have the right to impregnate on the same terms as other men in accordance with the law. If you can't, then take it up with mother nature.:D

3. You have the right to use the Shannon - Erne waterway on the same terms as other boaters.

Anything other than a HGV does not have the right to use the Port Tunnel on the same terms as HGVs.

Specifically we are talking here about ferry traffic. It is by no means rubbish to suggest that it uses the tunnel on the same terms as a HGV. It is port generated traffic that could be taken off city streets and deliver more value for money to the port tunnel. Furthermore, just think of the amount of coaches, caravans, cars, vans, tourers, etc. that would be able to make an onward journey without banging up east wall road or northwall quay.

Rubbish?

Ham n Egger, I'm shocked.:) Nobody has to pay for it. The tunnel charge was set high to discourage smaller vehicles, so we presume they aren't using it anyway. So whats the cost of letting the ferry traffic use it free gratis?

Unless the high tolls are being availed of and its a nice little earner?

murphaph

It could encourage more british tourists to visit Ireland if they can make a swift exit to the motorway network. That would be a positive for the economy.

At the end of the day-the tunnel is operating way under capacity and that is wrong for a project we paid so much for. We should be getting as many vehicles as possible whilst maintaining traffic flow into the tunnel and off surface streets.

Ham'nd'egger

DerekP11 wrote:

1. You have the right to become a drug addict and avail of the detox centres on the same terms as other drug addicts.

2. While maternity hospitals are provided for women. They tend to get there due to men. Its called mother nature. You have the right to impregnate on the same terms as other men in accordance with the law. If you can't, then take it up with mother nature.:D

3. You have the right to use the Shannon - Erne waterway on the same terms as other boaters.

Anything other than a HGV does not have the right to use the Port Tunnel on the same terms as HGVs.

Specifically we are talking here about ferry traffic. It is by no means rubbish to suggest that it uses the tunnel on the same terms as a HGV. It is port generated traffic that could be taken off city streets and deliver more value for money to the port tunnel. Furthermore, just think of the amount of coaches, caravans, cars, vans, tourers, etc. that would be able to make an onward journey without banging up east wall road or northwall quay.

Rubbish?

Ham n Egger, I'm shocked.:) Nobody has to pay for it. The tunnel charge was set high to discourage smaller vehicles, so we presume they aren't using it anyway. So whats the cost of letting the ferry traffic use it free gratis?

Unless the high tolls are being availed of and its a nice little earner?

I still disagree, I am not a pregnant junkie barge owner with a C licence and I am being discriminated against

Wishbone Ash

DerekP11 wrote:

1. You have the right to become a drug addict and avail of the detox centres on the same terms as other drug addicts

Somehow I very much doubt that one has a legal right to become a drug addict (if you are referring to illegal drugs).

Now - back on topic!

congo_90

Personally i think that any car which has a valid ferry ticket should be allowed pass through at maybe 6-8euro? this would as already by OP take a hell lot of traffic off the streets and as another poster said, it could improve our economy not only from england but, from Europe. People want to tour without stressful traffic.

Mimikyu

This post has been deleted.

Wishbone Ash

congo_90 wrote:

take a hell lot of traffic off the streets

In all fairness, if cars intending to board the ferry were to use the DPT, while it may be benificial to the car driver, it would not make one iota of a difference to Dublin's traffic.

(Bear in mind that it would not really be suitable for traffic coming from the south/southeast).

John R

DerekP11 wrote:

Rubbish?

Yes, quite frankly. There is no end of individual tax spends that one individual taxpayer will not/cannot avail of. That doesn't make the spend invalid as long as it is for the collective good, all Dublin road users benefit from the removal of trucks from the city streets.

DerekP11 wrote:

So whats the cost of letting the ferry traffic use it free gratis?

Unless the high tolls are being availed of and its a nice little earner?

I doubt very much that the tolls taken are generating much profit after running costs are taken into consideration.

I do agree though, any car with a valid travel ticket for a ferry crossing within a few hours of departure/arrival at the port should be allowed through for free by DPT/NRA on production of said ticket at the toll booth.

John R

congo_90 wrote:

Personally i think that any car which has a valid ferry ticket should be allowed pass through at maybe 6-8euro? this would as already by OP take a hell lot of traffic off the streets and as another poster said, it could improve our economy not only from england but, from Europe. People want to tour without stressful traffic.

Depending on the time/day they pass through they will now pay €3, €6 or €12.

More ferry users would be travelling in the €6 and €3 bands than the €12 as it stands.

congo_90

John R wrote:

Depending on the time/day they pass through they will now pay €3, €6 or €12.

More ferry users would be travelling in the €6 and €3 bands than the €12 as it stands.

any ideas of these times? people would only use it at these times if they had a ferry at that time. Otherwise, they will sit in traffic continueously congesting the streets. Taking at least half a ferry load of cars off the streets can make a difference

Wishbone Ash

congo_90 wrote:

any ideas of these times?

DPT Tolls depend on the time AND direction of travel.

congo_90 wrote:

Taking at least half a ferry load of cars off the streets can make a difference

Taking one bicycle off the streets can technically make a difference to traffic but to make an effective difference is a different matter entirely. Half a ferry load of cars would probably equate to one less car per busy road/street.

congo_90

still its making a difference to the city. Just the tip of the iceberg when new ideas come out to help ease traffic.
kinda went off topic der (i did)

aliveandkicking

Wishbone Ash wrote:

Taking one bicycle off the streets can technically make a difference to traffic but to make an effective difference is a different matter entirely. Half a ferry load of cars would probably equate to one less car per busy road/street.

As Tesco might say - every little helps.

Ham'nd'egger

John R wrote:

Depending on the time/day they pass through they will now pay €3, €6 or €12.

More ferry users would be travelling in the €6 and €3 bands than the €12 as it stands.

Between 4PM and 5:30PM, there is 4 car ferries arriving into Dublin Port, John. Cars would be subject to the €12 toll. Between 4AM and 6AM, some 6 car ferries arrive in, subject to €3/€6 depending on how quick they alight.

Incidentally, many of these cars would use the East Link, are they to be let off this toll as well?

spacetweek

paulm17781 wrote:

I have an issue with a tunnel, paid for out of taxes, that I will possibly never use. I am sure I'm not alone. Encouraging use of the tunnel should be a priority for those of us who paid for it.

Have to say paulm I'm not feeling you here. Just cause you're not driving through the tunnel every day doesn't mean you're not benefitting. Every time you walk or drive on the Quays and don't get squished by a truck, you're feeling the benefit of the tunnel.

That benefit would be eroded by creating incentives for car traffic to use the tunnel. International experience worldwide over the last few decades has shown that restriction of private car usage of urban motorways is essential is they are to maintain a functional throughput.

If we let ferry traffic through for free, I'd worry about the rot setting in.

Slice

I would imagine that if the port tunnel is as under-utilised as it's rumoured to be then the cost of using the tunnel would undoubtedly come down to stimulate demand to a point where the price of usage would be so low as to make this discussion irrelevant.

DerekP11

Slice wrote:

I would imagine that if the port tunnel is as under-utilised as it's rumoured to be then the cost of using the tunnel would undoubtedly come down to stimulate demand to a point where the price of usage would be so low as to make this discussion irrelevant.

Theres already a rumour that toll prices are to drop at certain times.

trellheim

it's only 3 euro at weekends ... fantastic. I get to the airport from ringsend in 15 minutes or so.

Victor

paulm17781 wrote:

I have an issue with a tunnel, paid for out of taxes, that I will possibly never use. I am sure I'm not alone. Encouraging use of the tunnel should be a priority for those of us who paid for it.

Do you also demand to use Mountjoy Prison and the Air Corps new helicopters? Do you expect your demands to be met?

paulm17781

Victor wrote:

Do you also demand to use Mountjoy Prison and the Air Corps new helicopters? Do you expect your demands to be met?

No, I do think there should be better use of prisons though (not a conversation for this board).

As Derek said, I could join the Aircorps and use the Helicopter for free, in fact I'd get paid for it. Fact is I can't use the tunnel for free (unless I become a truck driver.)

I don't think it should be free all round but it needs more usage, the ferry idea posted is a great one, I'm surprised it has been met with so much criticism.

antoinolachtnai

Why does the tunnel need more usage? Have you driven along the quays during rush hour lately?

Brian CivilEng

paulm17781 wrote:

As Derek said, I could join the Aircorps and use the Helicopter for free, in fact I'd get paid for it. Fact is I can't use the tunnel for free (unless I become a truck driver.)

Hope on a bus to the airport at rush hour, there's a good chance you'd get to use the tunnel then! For no more than the fare you'd normally pay, hence a free extra. Satisfied?

DerekP11

antoinolachtnai wrote:

Why does the tunnel need more usage? Have you driven along the quays during rush hour lately?

Whats your point? The quays are still jammers. My average journey time on each quay has increased by approxiamately 6 minutes since 2005.

DerekP11

Theres a lot of comparisons flying around this thread in terms of benefitting from tax payer funded projects. However I think a lot of them are far from like with like.

Bottom line for me. The DPT is road infrastructure. Its infrastructure for the majority, not a minority. Within road users, the majority are being penalised if they want to use it.

I too, am surprised by the attitude displayed here in relation to the OPs suggestion.

antoinolachtnai

Well, increasing traffic through the port tunnel almost inevitably leads to more traffic on the quays. The OP's suggestion might do the opposite, but it would do it to such a small extent as to be not worth the administrative effort.

You benefit from the Port Tunnel even if you don't actually travel through it, through reduced congestion on the quays.

paulm17781

antoinolachtnai wrote:

Why does the tunnel need more usage? Have you driven along the quays during rush hour lately?

Yes, I live on the quays, it is quieter (volume) than it was but it is still hectic the whole time. Have you lived along the quays lately?

antoinolachtnai

By remarking on driving along the quays, I meant exactly what you said, that it is hectic, and my point, to be completely explicit was that increasing the volume of traffic through the DPT will drive further increases in traffic on the quays and in the city centre generally.

paulm17781

antoinolachtnai wrote:

By remarking on driving along the quays, I meant exactly what you said, that it is hectic, and my point, to be completely explicit was that increasing the volume of traffic through the DPT will drive further increases in traffic on the quays and in the city centre generally.

So as less cars need to go through the city, more will? :rolleyes:

paulm17781

abitofacomedian wrote:

Hope on a bus to the airport at rush hour, there's a good chance you'd get to use the tunnel then! For no more than the fare you'd normally pay, hence a free extra. Satisfied?

"Abitofacomedian" - clearly.

Yes, that makes it better. I shall now deviate all my journeys to go via the airport at all times, that is a sensible way to utilize existing infrastructure.

mickoneill30

paulm17781 wrote:

"Abitofacomedian" - clearly.

Yes, that makes it better. I shall now deviate all my journeys to go via the airport at all times, that is a sensible way to utilize existing infrastructure.

Well what's your problem then? You don't want to pay for it because you don't use it. Well do you use all the roads in Dublin or Ireland? Should you only pay taxes for the roads you use?

As was mentioned before there are a hell of a lot of taxes for services that you'll probably never use, if you only want to pay for what you use post how this could be set up (in a new thread).

johnnyrotten

jahalpin wrote:

The Port Tunnel was designed to remove heavy goods vehicles from the main roads. It was never designed to bring cars to the port.

Correct and relevant

paulm17781

mickoneill30 wrote:

Well what's your problem then? You don't want to pay for it because you don't use it. Well do you use all the roads in Dublin or Ireland? Should you only pay taxes for the roads you use?

As was mentioned before there are a hell of a lot of taxes for services that you'll probably never use, if you only want to pay for what you use post how this could be set up (in a new thread).

Shh, keep it in your pants dear. My point is that it is an under utilized piece of infrastructure payed for by taxes (not hauliers) that could be used to remove a sizeable chunk of port going traffic. Instead it is sitting there, unused for a large part of the day, while our medieval city streets are clogged with traffic.

As has been pointed out, traffic is worse now that it was when the tunnel was planned, if cars had the option to use it to get to the port (as the OP said when going for a ferry) without having to pay whatever the toll is, it could help relieve congestion in the streets.

Some of you are getting very aggressive about this, do you want to keep it quiet for chunnneling or something?

mickoneill30

Yeah OK. I'd be happy if the buses could even use it. I live in Swords and it's great for the odd bus that does use it but Dublin Bus can't use it officially without getting a license from the DOT. There are about 100 people on every bus from Swords and other northside towns in the morning that could really benefit from using the tunnel.

paulm17781

mickoneill30 wrote:

Yeah OK. I'd be happy if the buses could even use it. I live in Swords and it's great for the odd bus that does use it but Dublin Bus can't use it officially without getting a license from the DOT. There are about 100 people on every bus from Swords and other northside towns in the morning that could really benefit from using the tunnel.

Exactly my point.

mickoneill30

paulm17781 wrote:

Exactly my point.

Well yes and no. It's not the port tunnel stopping the Dublin Buses. It's the Dept Of (no) Transport.

paulm17781

mickoneill30 wrote:

Well yes and no. It's not the port tunnel stopping the Dublin Buses. It's the Dept Of (no) Transport.

Yes. My point is that it is underutilized, no matter who you point the finger at, if the government wanted to, they could ensure it gets used.

Victor

paulm17781 wrote:

So as less cars need to go through the city, more will? :rolleyes:

Yes. Traffic expands to fill available road space.

When the trucks were removed from the quays, they were replaced by cars. The continuous bus lane should have opened at the same time as the tunnel.

paulm17781

Victor wrote:

Yes. Traffic expands to fill available road space.

But that isn't a hard and fast rule, it only applies when it is the quickest way. I'd be interested to see what amount of traffic used the tunnel / east link to bypass the city altogether.

antoinolachtnai

But there isn't an eastern bypass. There's a little road that runs through sandymount if that's what you mean.

And I think it is a fairly hard and fast rule, at least in a growing economy.

paulm17781

antoinolachtnai wrote:

But there isn't an eastern bypass. There's a little road that runs through sandymount if that's what you mean.

I said "to bypass" I never said "The bypass".

antoinolachtnai

But what good does that do? It just pushes more traffic into Sandymount. There's little capacity in the roads there for extra cars.