Speaker Cable installed by Electrician

Slaphead07

conax wrote: »

I think that if the admin do decide to start a dedicated true HiFi forum maybe ye could call it the “It just does” HiFi forum, this of course would be with reference to every answer on every question.:D

That'll do me!

mossym

to be honest, and i've kept my nose out of this one, as i'm one of the people ritz was referring to above, i think a better distinction of the forums would solve a lot of the problems. having two sub forums called audio amplifiers and speakers, and another called hi-fi and seperates, is misleading. an amp in most peoples mind is a seperate, to be paired up with some sort of processor, whether that be a cd player which decodes the sound, or a processor for surround (or stereo). a better distinction here may be hifi vs home theatre, as that would be a better distinction, myself and slaphead have already argued out stereo amps vs surround receivers, and what one of us is looking for in one the other may not like.

cables are a different matter, they are always going to cause problems. Even on dedicated audio and Av forums these arguementsd are common place.

i think 2 comments that has been already placed bears some relevance.

1) what the cables can add compared to other investments may be small
2) the comment about argos.

some of the problem, at least with me, is telling peole who are the equivalent of the argos buyers that high end cables will make a difference to them. Sure, they might, but if they have to ask about all in one systems then i think there are more important changes they can make over the cables. When you get to the level of eoquipment that slaphead has, and the level of performance he is expecting to get, then sure, change the cables, at that stage, even if the difference is perceived or not, and i'm not saying which it is, then it's worth it. up till then, the arguements that go on about cables are over their head, and only end up confusing them.

personally, i think my attitude to this argurment has changed. If i believe or not they make a difference it is irrelevant. however, i think recommending expensive cable has to be done at a certain level, and most of the peole posting here aren't at it. they no more need to hear that they should use it, than they do the rest of us arguing that they shouldn't.

anyway, who looking for home entertainment advice is going to go looking in thunderdome?:D

Slaphead07

mossym wrote: »

some of the problem, at least with me, is telling peole who are the equivalent of the argos buyers that high end cables will make a difference to them..... i think recommending expensive cable has to be done at a certain level, and most of the peole posting here aren't at it.

Just for the record I don't believe I ever recommended high end cables to anyone using basic equipment. I did suggest throwing away the yokes that come free in the box and buy something better but never recommened that anybody should buy the expensive stuff.
If somebody has decent entry level gear (NAD, Mission etc) then I'd suggest better cables before spending €400+ on upgrading an amp or CD player.

padi89

My opinion is that people should be made more aware of their options before suggestions are made that they should spend at least X amount on a cable for their system.There are plenty of other options out there besides the big names made with the exact same materials and quality for a fraction of the cost.They just don't have the backing of the magazines because they don't advertise but make as good a product.For a subject that on most audio forums brings a heated debate without ever a conclusion both sides should be heard.

mossym

Slaphead07 wrote: »

Just for the record I don't believe I ever recommended high end cables to anyone using basic equipment. I did suggest throwing away the yokes that come free in the box and buy something better but never recommened that anybody should buy the expensive stuff.
If somebody has decent entry level gear (NAD, Mission etc) then I'd suggest better cables before spending €400+ on upgrading an amp or CD player.

wasn't having a dig, and wasn't aimed at you, but as you said most of the conversation here is about argos equipment, so a few of us argiung about cables is relatively pointless. if someone comes in with some high end gear then we can have at it, but at least the op will have some knowledge of what we are head bashing each other with

with that i'll skulk back into the shadows of this thread...the Ritz will make me his first banning victim if i get involved in another one of these debates

Slaphead07

mossym wrote: »

wasn't having a dig, and wasn't aimed at you, but as you said most of the conversation here is about argos equipment, so a few of us argiung about cables is relatively pointless.

This is still a HiFi forum rather than comsumer electronics. Cables are relevant in HiFi, the only thing to debate is to what degree.

Slaphead07

padi89 wrote: »

For a subject that on most audio forums brings a heated debate without ever a conclusion both sides should be heard.

Most HiFi forums I visit discuss cables in a civilised and informed way.

Both sides should of course be heard but I think we'd all expect something more than pointing and laughing from those that have never even heard high end cables.

padi89

Slaphead07 wrote: »

Most HiFi forums I visit discuss cables in a civilised and informed way.

Both sides should of course be heard but I think we'd all expect something more than pointing and laughing from those that have never even heard high end cables.

Its no different from the forums i visit, just because it can get a little heated never means it becomes uncivilised or the people posting are ill-informed.
One thing is for sure there is never a conclusive outcome and until there is people should be told to decide for themselves,try before you buy and don't read into any claims.
I don't think anyone is laughing and pointing but i don't think you should be making assumptions either that people that disagree with you have never heard any high end cables.Im sure a few here have, some may hear a difference,some may not,it does not mean any body's hearing is any worse or less tuned.

Slaphead07

padi89 wrote: »

....it does not mean any body's hearing is any worse or less tuned.

Who said it does?

ZENER

padi89 wrote: »

I don't think anyone is laughing and pointing but i don't think you should be making assumptions either that people that disagree with you have never heard any high end cables.Im sure a few here have, some may hear a difference,some may not,it does not mean any body's hearing is any worse or less tuned.

Isn't the point of this forum to get people to realise that there is a difference between bog standard and something of higher quality or better technical specifications ?

People come here looking for advice, it's good to get as many opinions as possible - even if some of them do require a leap of faith of the reader - and then go to the limits of your knowledge and budget.

OK trying to convince some people to spend a few hundred plus on speaker cables may not work but at least educating them that a bigger cable will benefit their system might have some success. From there they experiment with the more exotic stuff if they wish or settle with their lot which is hopefully at least better than "speaker cable" as defined by an electrician. If the latter is the outcome then at least they have gained that much.

ZEN

The Ritz

mossym,

with that i'll skulk back into the shadows of this thread...the Ritz will make me his first banning victim if i get involved in another one of these debates

I've just tried to put down a marker about trolling/baiting/insults etc. All and any discussion is welcome, provided it is done with respect for other peoples views and opinions. I am not "targetting" anyone.

The point you've made about forum classification is along the theme already raised by Slaphead07 - while the forum is quite "young", maybe we should discuss that issue further ? Any other views ? I'm happy to raise the issue with Admins if there is enough demand and we can get some general agreement.

Ritz.

The Ritz

i don't think you should be making assumptions either that people that disagree with you have never heard any high end cables.Im sure a few here have, some may hear a difference,some may not,it does not mean any body's hearing is any worse or less tuned.

That's precisely the point that I'm interested in: if someone has tried somethiing different - be it high end, diy, whatever - then that adds something to the debate. An opinion without some reference to the posters experience can appear uninformed, if the source of their opinion is not maade clear.

I don't think anyone is trying to deny anyone their opinion or suggest that they're defective in some way because they don't hear a difference. What is not helpful is when someone rubbishes someone else's opinions or viewpoint without actually saying "I tried cable A and cable B and that's why I think XYZ."


Ritz

padi89

Slaphead07 wrote: »

Who said it does?

Nobody,i just would have thought it pretty obvious that at the end of the day your lugs would be the real decider.

padi89

The Ritz wrote: »

That's precisely the point that I'm interested in: if someone has tried somethiing different - be it high end, diy, whatever - then that adds something to the debate. An opinion without some reference to the posters experience can appear uninformed, if the source of their opinion is not maade clear.

I don't think anyone is trying to deny anyone their opinion or suggest that they're defective in some way because they don't hear a difference. What is not helpful is when someone rubbishes someone else's opinions or viewpoint without actually saying "I tried cable A and cable B and that's why I think XYZ."


Ritz

Well if you read from the beginning (and not to start this all off again) but it was Slaphead (and i know he was reacting to someone that is not a regular poster) that said
"And you're right to laugh at €60 interconnect cables... it costs >€130 to make decent ones.... good plugs alone are €12.50 each (cost price) so that's €50 straightaway. €60 cables will be crap alright"
As i said from my experience this is not the case, i dont see why its OK for him to rubbish a cable and use name calling but when the tables are turned its different.

Slaphead07

at any time of the day the listeners ears are the only decider. As I said before, try mains cables before buying speaker cable, try cheap before you buy expensive. If we were in the US I'd be recommending Wal-Mart's "less than a dollar a yard" cable for speakers which is, to many ears, on a par with the very best cable.

HiFi generally, and cables in particular, are a bit of a black art. As digital signals are only ever 1s and 0s logically all CD players should be exactly the same... but they're not. Leave room for the music ok?

The Ritz

I have read the thread from the beginning and

and not to start this all off again

on this occasion you should take your own advice. I have no intention of arguing this point any further, least of all in a tit-for-tat manner. It's curious that you want to drag this up again and question my motivation. If you can't leave the argumentation of the earlier parts of this thread behind you, then you should go elsewhere.

Ritz.

padi89

ZENER wrote: »

Isn't the point of this forum to get people to realise that there is a difference between bog standard and something of higher quality or better technical specifications ?

People come here looking for advice, it's good to get as many opinions as possible - even if some of them do require a leap of faith of the reader - and then go to the limits of your knowledge and budget.

OK trying to convince some people to spend a few hundred plus on speaker cables may not work but at least educating them that a bigger cable will benefit their system might have some success. From there they experiment with the more exotic stuff if they wish or settle with their lot which is hopefully at least better than "speaker cable" as defined by an electrician. If the latter is the outcome then at least they have gained that much.

ZEN

I understand what you are saying but people should also be informed that they could end up spending a large wad of cash on new cables and not notice any difference at all between ones for a fraction of the price or the ones they already have.What i am saying is that when discussing cables and reading peoples opinions they should be taken with a pinch of salt,people that do and don't believe.
As for the electricians "speaker cable" i never commented on.If the forum is to grow more i think
its worth welcoming people starting out with a small budget as much as the high end hi-fi geek.Let people decide for themselves without putting a price point on things.

Slaphead07

padi89 wrote: »

"And you're right to laugh at €60 interconnect cables... it costs >€130 to make decent ones.... good plugs alone are €12.50 each (cost price) so that's €50 straightaway. €60 cables will be crap alright"
As i said from my experience this is not the case, i dont see why its OK for him to rubbish a cable and use name calling but when the tables are turned its different.

I stand over that.... do the maths. How much would you pay for 4 good quality plugs?
I know a guy who makes good hifi interconnects and it costs him about €120 to make a 1 metre pair.

That €60 cable will be an upgrade for someone now but if in the future they upgrade their gear it will be wasted.

Again you're arguing against something you haven't heard - perhaps a philosophy thread would be more fitting?

The Ritz

Slaphead07,

I've asked padi89 to drop this line of argument, I don't expect him to reply and would be obliged if you'd kindly do the same.

Ritz.

Slaphead07

will do..... ever decreasing circles alright.

padi89

Sorry Ritz missed your post,will let it lie.

conax

Slaphead07 wrote:

If we were in the US I'd be recommending Wal-Mart's "less than a dollar a yard" cable for speakers which is, to many ears, on a par with the very best cable.

screeching brakes sound from my brain as I read that!! can you tell us more about that cable?

PS Zener I have a relatively complicated electrical question is it ok if I PM you?

The Ritz

If we were in the US I'd be recommending Wal-Mart's "less than a dollar a yard" cable for speakers which is, to many ears, on a par with the very best cable.

can you tell us more about that cable?

Ditto................. Sis-in-law goes the States, always asks if i want her to bring something back............... 40m of cable shouldn't present a problem



Ritz.

mossym

Slaphead07 wrote: »

at any time of the day the listeners ears are the only decider. As I said before, try mains cables before buying speaker cable, try cheap before you buy expensive. If we were in the US I'd be recommending Wal-Mart's "less than a dollar a yard" cable for speakers which is, to many ears, on a par with the very best cable.

you sure about it being walmart? the cable i always saw recomended was the home depot stuff, roughly the same price. that was when i was living in the states, and reading the american forums..

mossym

The Ritz wrote: »

mossym,



I've just tried to put down a marker about trolling/baiting/insults etc. All and any discussion is welcome, provided it is done with respect for other peoples views and opinions. I am not "targetting" anyone.

The point you've made about forum classification is along the theme already raised by Slaphead07 - while the forum is quite "young", maybe we should discuss that issue further ? Any other views ? I'm happy to raise the issue with Admins if there is enough demand and we can get some general agreement.

Ritz.

i know, was only a joke. In fairness the cable debate does tend to bring out the argumantative side of people, myself included.

With regards the different sub forums. let me give an example. If someone came in here looking for a decent amplifier, who would recommend what? slaphead would, and correctly so, recommend a high quality stereo amplifier. I'm sure it would have excellent sound, no questions there. I on the other hand would be thinking more along the lines of a decent surround receiver. It mainly being down to the fact that slaphead is into hifi/stereo, and my main interest is in home theatre. if the user doesn't specify one or the other as his main use how do we advise correctly? slaphead won't agree with my recommendation as it isn't hifi in his books, as all that video switching will distort the sound. however i might see the combination of sound + video performance as more important than the sound alone.

if there were a hifi and home theatre split, it woumld be obvious what each person wanted. if someone went into the hifi section and asked about cables, then fire away and recommend them the best cables money can buy. at the same time you probably won't get many decent sub recommendations in a hifi thread, but for HT the sub is all important.

Maybe my sub forums are not the correct way to go either, but i see ambiguity in the way they are split at the moment.

Slaphead07

If it were to go that way I think a "high end" sub-forum might be clearer, just so people know that the equipment, including cables, are not bought on price.

To be honest if somebody wanted advice on getting into HiFi I wouldn't be suggesting high-end "money no object" gear as you'll never appreciate good HiFi that way... it's a bit like buying a Mercedes before ever having to live with a Lada!

MossyM,
At lot of people have to combine cinema with HiFi so if asked for a good all-rounder I'd respond appropriately to that whether for an amp or CD/DVD player. Not easy to find an amp that does both well though... an Arcam at €2400 is the closest I've heard and that's not a cheap solution!

Slaphead07

mossym wrote: »

you sure about it being walmart? the cable i always saw recomended was the home depot stuff, roughly the same price. that was when i was living in the states, and reading the american forums..

It's purely anecdotal, I'm pretty sure I was told Wal-mart but of course it could have been Home Depot. My point was that good speaker cable doesn't have to be expensive

mossym

Slaphead07 wrote: »

If it were to go that way I think a "high end" sub-forum might be clearer, just so people know that the equipment, including cables, are not bought on price.

To be honest if somebody wanted advice on getting into HiFi I wouldn't be suggesting high-end "money no object" gear as you'll never appreciate good HiFi that way... it's a bit like buying a Mercedes before ever having to live with a Lada!

even better. no offense meant here, but it would be like putting a disclaimer on your posts saying that the advice is meant for those chasing only the very best performace.

Slaphead07 wrote: »

MossyM,
At lot of people have to combine cinema with HiFi so if asked for a good all-rounder I'd respond appropriately to that whether for an amp or CD/DVD player. Not easy to find an amp that does both well though... an Arcam at €2400 is the closest I've heard and that's not a cheap solution!

hence my point, i would say that for what i am looking for excellent performace can be had for less. horses for courses as the man says...

easy solution...give slaphead a High end forum, me a HT forum,and we'll agree to stay out of each others...:D

mossym

Slaphead07 wrote: »

It's purely anecdotal, I'm pretty sure I was told Wal-mart but of course it could have been Home Depot. My point was that good speaker cable doesn't have to be expensive

oh i'm only questioning as you seem to have a queue of people heading off to the states to pick some up..better make sure you send them to the right shop..

otherwise the shop is irrelevenat

Slaphead07

mossym wrote: »

oh i'm only questioning as you seem to have a queue of people heading off to the states to pick some up..better make sure you send them to the right shop..

otherwise the shop is irrelevenat

My intention wasn't to send anyone anywhere..... if anybody is seriously going to buy from the US then they'd better scour the US HiFi forums for first hand experience of the cable.

ZENER

mossym wrote: »

If someone came in here looking for a decent amplifier, who would recommend what? slaphead would, and correctly so, recommend a high quality stereo amplifier. I'm sure it would have excellent sound, no questions there. I on the other hand would be thinking more along the lines of a decent surround receiver. It mainly being down to the fact that slaphead is into hifi/stereo, and my main interest is in home theatre.

If they said a "decent amplifier" then a decent amplifier would be recommended by anyone who felt they could help the poster, the poster would decide which replies were appropriate to their needs. If the poster asked for advice on an AV amplifier then there are plenty here - including slaphead - who can offer advice. The poster may not realise there's a difference and be educated thus.

Understand also that not every post looking for advice ends up like this one - for my part I'm sorry that my posts caused an otherwise quiet thread to go this way and the Mod to intervene. It just proves that everyone has an opinion in the context of their own experience or equipment.

@ Conax: By all means, if I can help I will.

ZEN

Turbulent Bill

I think the current forum layout works pretty well, though maybe re-naming them to 'HE Music' and 'HE Home Theatre' might work. There'll always be an inevitable overlap when components like amps, speakers etc. are discussed, so it's probably better to avoid further sub-forums.

I'd imagine that there's quite a few people who have got into / returned to music through the spread of MP3s (access to new artists etc.), and now want something with a bit more quality. Hi-Fi to them could be anything better than a scratchy 128kb/s MP3 played through tinny speakers, and I think these forums should cater to them as much as anyone. As a comparison, the Motors forum seems to cater to anything from a banger to a supercar with little difficulty.

The Ritz

@Zener,

No residual issues with me, I think a few of us might have a better undertanding of our respective positions as a result of the discussion here over the past few days, and that can only be good thing in the long run.

I'm mulling over the issue of forum classification - maybe making the current classification clearer - good suggestion from Turbulent Bill...........


Ritz

Slaphead07

Turbulent Bill wrote: »

As a comparison, the Motors forum seems to cater to anything from a banger to a supercar with little difficulty.

Yeah, but nobody over there has ever insisted it would be fine to fit remoulds to an AMG55.:rolleyes:

mossym

Slaphead07 wrote: »

Yeah, but nobody over there has ever insisted it would be fine to fit remoulds to an AMG55.:rolleyes:

and with that i'll bow out. i think there are some changes needed to the forum but it looks like the ritz has some ideas. I hope they work out so that this can be a forum for everyone, of all levels. fron now on i'll stick to some other forums, but i might pop back in a few months to see how it all turned out.

as one of the best movies of the last few years said..good night, and good luck

Turbulent Bill

Slaphead07 wrote: »

Yeah, but nobody over there has ever insisted it would be fine to fit remoulds to an AMG55.:rolleyes:

Obviously. But neither would racing tyres be recommended for a 1 litre Corsa, on the basis that any possible improvements in performance would be negated by the car's general lack of guts. But of course you know that...

To reiterate, these forums should cover as broad a range of Hi-Fi as possible (IMO), with advice appropriate to every level of equipment and budget.

Slaphead07

hopefully any new or amended forum will have a "sense of humour" plug-in.

The Ritz

hopefully any new or amended forum will have a "sense of humour" plug-in.

If such a thing existed...........


This discussion has run its course at this stage, I think..........

Thread closed.


Ritz.