Saha Penalty - Entitled to go down?

Nalz

Just wondering what all your opinions about the dramatic fall Saha did against Chelsea... was he entitled to go down, was it even a penalty? She have got booked?

Mitch Connor

It is a tough one.

There was contact, but it was minimal, I don't know whetehr the contact made was enough to take him down. But, you could look at it frmo the point of view that Ben Haim stopped Saha getting past him without getting the ball. The tackler does NOT have to make contact with the opposing player for it to be a foul - the rule is just that the attacker is stopped from continuing his run without the defender getting the ball (Seaman's "foul" on Fowler back in the day was the first real incident of this that i can remember)

Personally, I would like to see players stay on their feet as much as possible and try to get their shot/pass in, and if they can't, for the ref to call it back for the 'foul', but the fact is the ref isn't likely to do this - so it is generally a choice between going down and hoping for the penalty or getting nothing out of it at all, which is generally goign to encourage the player to go down.

So, I don't know.

I'm glad we got the penalty (to make up for the earlier one) and glad that we won, but i if Shevchenko had done the same at the other end and got a penalty i'd have been annoyed - don't know if i would have been 100% against it being a penalty though.

Nalz

IMO it was a peno, but Saha went down like a ton of bricks. He was kicked, stopped in his tracks, impeded, call it what you like but it was a penalty.

_blank_

Theres different rules for the penalty area, and common sense should have intervened. Defo yellow

I sometimes wonder if people posting here actually know the rules of the game they support.

THERE ARE NO SPECIAL RULES IN THE PENALTY AREA.

None.

Nada.

It's the same, and any referee that thinks different shouldn't be reffing.

Simple as that.

Have a look at the laws of the game sometime.

Nalz

DesF wrote:

I sometimes wonder if people posting here actually know the rules of the game they support.

THERE ARE NO SPECIAL RULES IN THE PENALTY AREA.

None.

Nada.

It's the same, and any referee that thinks different shouldn't be reffing.

Simple as that.

Have a look at the laws of the game sometime.

Well thats obvious, but people still tend to come out with that. It that was outside the box its a definite freekick, yet its a "soft peno" or "not enough" for a peno...

Melion

The touch in the face wasnt enough for a penalty IMO, his fall was laughable and i hope he gets slated in the press over it. Thing is though, if he had kept on with his run, there was a Chelsea player tracking back who would have definitely fouled him had he run past Ben Haim

Loomis

He was fouled. It's a penalty. He added dramatics; that doesn't change the fact he was fouled. It just makes him a spanner

jesus_thats_gre

There was contact but it was sorta weird. Ben Haim sorta caught Saha's leg but Saha actually put said foot back on the ground and then dived.

Xavi6

He dived, simple as. The tap on his shin guard wasn't enough to warrant a peno and he could have easily kept going. Cheat.

valor

DesF wrote:

I sometimes wonder if people posting here actually know the rules of the game they support.

THERE ARE NO SPECIAL RULES IN THE PENALTY AREA.

None.

Nada.

It's the same, and any referee that thinks different shouldn't be reffing.

Simple as that.

Have a look at the laws of the game sometime.

In theory yes there SHOULD be no difference but the fact is that in reality referees act differently when incidents occur in the penalty area - it takes a lot more for them to award a foul against a defender who say pushes an opponent in the box than outside of it!

i agree that this shouldnt be the case but it is.



and on the incident Saha dived. we can say there was contact but it IMO it was so minimal and probably shouldnt have been given. but i dont care as everyone is doing it

_blank_

Melion wrote:

there was a Chelsea player tracking back who would have definitely fouled him had he run past Ben Haim

:eek:

Are you Mystic Meg?

Nalz

Xavi6 wrote:

He dived, simple as. The tap on his shin guard wasn't enough to warrant a peno and he could have easily kept going. Cheat.

So is it a foul?

Or its not enough to warrant a penalty? This is what I meant when people go on about different rules inside the box

If someone takes a swipe at the ball, misses it as its gone passed him, makes contact with the apposing player (regardless of the strength of the contact) and impeeds/obstructs his run it is a penalty.

IMO his fall to the ground was dramatic and he could have stayed on his feet quite easily...but he was fouled and he had to go to ground in order to get the penalty, which he shouldnt have had to do

Xavi6

Trilla wrote:

So is it a foul?

Or its not enough to warrant a penalty? This is what I meant when people go on about different rules inside the box

If someone takes a swipe at the ball, misses it as its gone passed him, makes contact with the apposing player (regardless of the strength of the contact) and impeeds/obstructs his run it is a penalty.

IMO his fall to the ground was dramatic and he could have stayed on his feet quite easily...but he was fouled and he had to go to ground in order to get the penalty, which he shouldnt have had to do

It's not really a foul no. A clip on the shin guard shouldn't warrant a free kick or a penalty when the player can easily keep going like Saha could have. If he had have been chopped down or had his heels clipped fair enough but there was minimal contact and he dived. Mike Dean was sh*te all game anyway so I wasn't surprised he gave it.

Skittlebrau

Absolutely laughable peno.

Saha cheated. Simple as. Even if there was minimal contact (which I'm not 100% convinced there was after watching the footage on YouTube about 10 times), it's not a non-contact sport yet.

The ref had a mare of a game. The peno incident was just one of many things he got wrong.

Nalz

Skittlebrau wrote:

minimal contact (which I'm not 100% convinced there was after watching the footage on YouTube about 10 times)

If I could change the rules I would, it is in a sense a "soft penalty" but the fact is there is no such thing according to the rules or there should be no such thing.

As Tauren suggested "The tackler does NOT have to make contact with the opposing player for it to be a foul - the rule is just that the attacker is stopped from continuing his run without the defender getting the ball" .

and there also was contact however minimal it was. If someone gets their shirt pulled or pushed it is a penalty.

It seems to be a tough one as its fairly even in terms of what people think. Some non United fans sayin it was a penalty and some United fans sayin it wasnt.

PHB

Here's the real question, would the peno have been given if Saha didn't dive? IMO it was a Peno, it was a foul. However, would it have been given if Saha didn't dive? I don't think so. Therefore, the players kinda need to dive to get the peno, which is the real problem.

Lex Luthor

Saha was impeded and it was a penalty, but he made the most of it. He even made Drogba look like an angel with all his dramatics.

Just wish he hadn't scored

Nunu

PHB wrote:

Here's the real question, would the peno have been given if Saha didn't dive? IMO it was a Peno, it was a foul. However, would it have been given if Saha didn't dive? I don't think so. Therefore, the players kinda need to dive to get the peno, which is the real problem.

Julius Agahowa staying up and not getting a peno in Wigans game at the weekend backs up your assesment.

It was a peno, kick on the shin and hand into the face, but Saha made a meal of it.

Also, I really rate Saha and have always stuck up for him, but I thought it was poor form taking the peno away from Ronaldo.
Ronaldo is the peno taker and I doubt Saha would have been so keen to take it if the game had been deadlocked and it really mattered.
It's a trivial point, but just something I didn't like.

PHB

It's good for the team, Saha scoring again, getting his confidence back, and he earned the peno after all.

Mr. Presentable

Whether he was touched or not, he dived. A simulation. It's called cheating, by everyone except when it's to "their team's" advantage. It's fairly obvious that, in spite of his condemnations of others for doing it, Ferguson has instructed his players to dive. To cheat, to put it bluntly. He and his squad are good enough not to have to resort to cheating imho.

OP, I think it's poor form to try and justify cheating, which is, to my reading, what you are attempting with this thread.

leninbenjamin

a referee told me before that if the hands are up and contact made it's a foul, regardless of whether it's enough to impede a player or not. so based on that it's a foul, unless someone of the refereeing community tells me otherwise.

Saha shouldn't have done the theatrics like that, but you'd have to wonder would it have been given if he didn't. referee's seem to give the benefit of the doubt to the defender too much these days in my book.

Nalz

nipplenuts wrote:

OP, I think it's poor form to try and justify cheating, which is, to my reading, what you are attempting with this thread.

Well you have read this wrong. My point is that the fact Saha had to drop to the ground so dramatically is that he knew he wouldnt get a penalty, which he was entitled to.

Its a tough one nipplenuts, no need for the whole "poor form" comments. Exaggerated reactions to fouls are a form of cheating, but if he had not have got a penalty he would have been cheated. Thats my point, my opinion. I felt it was a correct decision.

CountryWise

Unfortunatly simulation on the pitch is everywhere now and although i cant stand it there isnt much people can do when there is contact!

Drogba in that situation would have done the same +3 rolls

Mr. Presentable

Trilla wrote:

Exaggerated reactions to fouls are a form of cheating, but if he had not have got a penalty he would have been cheated. Thats my point, my opinion. I felt it was a correct decision.

I'm not debating the ref's decision, but you, or Saha, have no way to know he wouldn't have given the penalty. Cripes, man, it's the same as rolling around on the ground after a tap to get a man booked.

_blank_

Until the referees are brave enough to give penalty kicks for every foul they see committed in the box, then what are the players to do?

Saha made sure the ref knew he was fouled, and gave him a decision to make. Rightly or wrongly, the ref called it right, there was contact, it was a foul (however soft, or whatever you want to call it, it doesn't exactly matter, contact of that type = foul, end of argument) and the ref gave a penalty. It was the correct decision to make, now if only more refs made it, it would be a better game.

I heard Andy Grey a few weeks ago shíteing on about that the refs had had a word with all managers that they were going to penalise the pushing/shoving/shirt lifting that goes on in and around the box at corners and free kicks. I don't watch that much Premierleague to notice, but has it been reduced or removed from the game?

Mr. Presentable

CountryWise wrote:

Drogba in that situation would have done the same +3 rolls

And Trilla would probably have screamed for FA intervention!

Mr. Presentable

DesF wrote:

...going to penalise the ... shirt lifting that goes on in and around the box

Careful now, they don't like being accused of that Des

Nalz

Yep and the only reason i think its a pen is cas Im a United fan :rolleyes:

leninbenjamin

DesF wrote:

I heard Andy Grey a few weeks ago shíteing on about that the refs had had a word with all managers that they were going to penalise the pushing/shoving/shirt lifting that goes on in and around the box at corners and free kicks. I don't watch that much Premierleague to notice, but has it been reduced or removed from the game?

one of the commentators on match of the day or the premiership or whatever it was that i watched said that one penalty had been given this year for shirt pulling. then in the next match (dunno if he meant by the same ref or what) that there had been blatant pulling and wrestling and that nothing was given.

I agree with you DesF, referee's are doing themselves no favours. they allow far too much over the fear of a reaction, they really need to clamp down in a lot of area's. I know it's an entirely different game but they should look to the rugby and see how successful refereeing is there. simple things like only the Captain being allowed to talk to the ref, that kinda thing. this crowding around of the refs should be stamped out, viciously. when you see Terry trying to pull the card out of the refs hand and nothing being done you know something is seriously wrong!

Mr. Presentable

Trilla wrote:

Yep and the only reason i think its a pen is cas Im a United fan :rolleyes:

I am not disputing the penalty. Only the acceptance of cheating when it is to our advantage.

Mr. Presentable

leninbenjamin wrote:

one of the commentators on match of the day or the premiership or whatever it was that i watched said that one penalty had been given this year for shirt pulling. then in the next match (dunno if he meant by the same ref or what) that there had been blatant pulling and wrestling and that nothing was given.

I agree with you DesF, referee's are doing themselves no favours. they allow far too much over the fear of a reaction, they really need to clamp down in a lot of area's. I know it's an entirely different game but they should look to the rugby and see how successful refereeing is there. simple things like only the Captain being allowed to talk to the ref, that kinda thing. this crowding around of the refs should be stamped out, viciously. when you see Terry trying to pull the card out of the refs hand and nothing being done you know something is seriously wrong!

I don't agree that it's the fault of the referees. They need to be backed by the clubs. Again, further to previous remarks, the managers are obviously instructing the players to pressure the ref.
If they are being intimidated by players and managers then they need to have the support of the FA to do something about it. I am surprised that with the amount of grief they get the Referees haven't taken strike action. How long untill a pumped up player seriously assaults a ref in England?

Nalz

nipplenuts wrote:

I am not disputing the penalty. Only the acceptance of cheating when it is to our advantage.

Yeah I see your point, catch 22. Dissapointing he "dived", dissapointing he had to "dive". Cheated to prevent being cheated.

_blank_

The question seems to be if a player is fouled, is he entitled to over-dramatise the reaction in order to draw the attention to the ref.

In my opinion, and it's not an opinion I like to have, is that the player IS entitled to draw attention to the foul.

If the ref is not going to do the RIGHT THING and award a free/penalty then the player needs to draw attention to it.

For instance, you all know I manage the boards team. We have a game this evening, and the refs in our league never give anything for a push in the back by a defender when a ball is coming over the top and the defender and forward are challenging.

I'm going to tell my strikers that if they are pushed, they are to go down, this gives the ref a decision to make, and if we get more free kicks in the opposition half, then nice one, I'll be glad.

My defenders, on the other hand, are absolute angels on the pitch, and never foul.:)

All to often, if the ref sees no 'effect' on the fouled player, he will wave play on, this is wrong, and week-in week-out defenders are getting away with it. It's just wrong.

Loomis

nipplenuts wrote:

you, have no way to know he wouldn't have given the penalty.

nipplenuts wrote:

It's fairly obvious that, in spite of his condemnations of others for doing it, Ferguson has instructed his players to dive.

Telling others not to speculate and then doing it yourself makes it hard to take on board what you say...

_blank_

nipplenuts wrote:

I don't agree that it's the fault of the referees.?

It clearly is.

Refs give free kicks in and around the centre circle for next to zero contact, but the closer it gets to the box, the less likely they are to blow up.

Why is a small push, 'soft' tackle or whatever more likely to be punished in the middle of the park, than in the box?

This is the referees that make the calls, and therefore are the ones to blame.

Dave!

DesF wrote:

I heard Andy Grey a few weeks ago shíteing on about that the refs had had a word with all managers that they were going to penalise the pushing/shoving/shirt lifting that goes on in and around the box at corners and free kicks. I don't watch that much Premierleague to notice, but has it been reduced or removed from the game?

There's lots of frees out as a result of pushing, etc., but you'd want to be stabbing someone to death to have any chance of giving away a peno.

_blank_

DesF wrote:

I
Why is a small push, 'soft' tackle or whatever more likely to be punished in the middle of the park, than in the box?

I'll answer this myself.

The referees lack the backbone, the moral courage if you will, to award a potential game changing penalty for a seemingly slight challenge, but will gladly whistle to their hearts content for the same tackle in the centre circle, where it is less likely to influence the result.

DaveMcG wrote:

There's lots of frees out as a result of pushing, etc., but you'd want to be stabbing someone to death to have any chance of giving away a peno.

Nice one, I laughed at that.

Mr. Presentable

Mr. Anderson wrote:

Telling others not to speculate and then doing it yourself makes it hard to take on board what you say...

???

soupie

I wouldn’t choose any of the voting options

He was touched as minimal as it was so if thems are the rules then thems are the rules.

Realistically though if that was to be a foul in football on every occassion it would be a game full of free kicks. It wouldn’t have been awarded to Saha if it was at Stamford Bridge, same way if it where the gunners at the Emirates. It was a home penalty, they happen every week.

I try not to concern myself with these things as over the course of a season they always seem to way themselves out.

Saha on the other hand should not have been so theatrical but lets be honest every team has one of these players now a days

MrJoeSoap

This thread is laughable. If that warrants a penalty then soccer surely has to be one of the most pathetic sports around. Andy Gray's ridiculous view on the situation summed it up for me, he basically claimed that because there was any sort of contact Saha was entitled to go to ground and win the penalty. If anyone has a clip with the Sky commentary I'd love to see/hear it.

Heads-out-of-the-sand time lads, he cheated and you're accepting it. It's happening more and more frequently and it's ruining the sport. Luckily this time it didn't have an impact on the result really, but that shouldn't make it acceptable.

By the way, Evra's was a definite penalty, and Joe Cole should have had two red cards in that game.

leninbenjamin

MrJoeSoap wrote:

If that warrants a penalty then soccer surely has to be one of the most pathetic sports around.

then stop watching it if you don't like it, them are the rules and have been for quite some time.

Nalz

MrJoeSoap wrote:

This thread is laughable. If that warrants a penalty then soccer surely has to be one of the most pathetic sports around. Andy Gray's ridiculous view on the situation summed it up for me, he basically claimed that because there was any sort of contact Saha was entitled to go to ground and win the penalty. If anyone has a clip with the Sky commentary I'd love to see/hear it.

There was more then the "kick, liccle tip with his foot, barely brushed minimal contact with his pinky toe whatever you want to decrease it to", he was obstructed also, and this is NOT ALLOWED in the game. Saha going completely OTT with the fall like he was shot is also NOT ALLOWED... so too wrongs are making a right here. Seems like we're going around in circles here, it was a penalty but it took an obvious dive to get it.

event

No one is entitled to go down, thats laughable

it was a penalty, as there was contact. I always have said, that if you go in for a tackle in the box, you better make sure you get the ball.
He made a meal of it.

i dont agree with people sayin that he has to draw attention to the foul. Shít happens, sometimes refs give penalties, sometimes they dont. Tough.

what pisses me off more in the penalty area, is how you can blatantly hold someone off to 'shepard' the ball out of play. Anywhere else on the pitch and its a free

~Rebel~

Nunu wrote:

Julius Agahowa staying up and not getting a peno in Wigans game at the weekend backs up your assesment.

Now That WAS some awful refereeing! It wouldn't have been a peno anyway as it was outside the box, but the keeper rushed out, threw himself at Julius who had a clean run through on goal, fouled him, and stopped the chance. Julius stumbled along for a few seconds at which time a defender got back to cover and the chance was gone. Just because Aghahowa managed to stay on his feet doesnt make it any less a foul. Keeper should def have been off, with a free just outside the box.

Saha's, meh, i cant really blame him for going down. I still think its pathetic though and would like that stamped out of the game. Maybe a statement from the reff committee (or whatever) saying that they will give pen's for fouls in the box where the man doesnt go down, btu in return, anyone making a huge meal of a tackle to the rediculous proportions of yesterday would get a yellow.

MrJoeSoap

leninbenjamin wrote:

then stop watching it if you don't like it, them are the rules and have been for quite some time.

I'm certainly watching less and less to be honest. The rules have been the same for a while but the players 10 or 15 years ago weren't cheating to the extent they are today.

PHB

But Joe Cole wasn't sent off was he?
If Ronaldo had rolled around on the ground, screaming in agony, Joe Cole might have gotten sent off? It would have been 'cheating' in order to get the correct decision. Things aren't so simple.

~Rebel~

PHB wrote:

But Joe Cole wasn't sent off was he?
If Ronaldo had rolled around on the ground, screaming in agony, Joe Cole might have gotten sent off? It would have been 'cheating' in order to get the correct decision. Things aren't so simple.

The ref's have been really awful this year haven't they? Nearly every game theres a massive decision thats been gotten wrong. Something really has to be done very soon within the reffing community about this "cheating to get the right decision" thing though, as the game will just become a mockery if it gets any worse. At times as it is its almost a parody of itself.

MrJoeSoap

Southampton vs Watford last week, Tommy Smith dodged a fairly poor tackle in the box (little or no contact) put in a cross and ****tu scored. The commentary team, whilst watching the replays, commend Smith for his 'honesty' in not going down under the tackle.

Not only are we accepting cheating, but we are now commending people for not cheating. John Giles must be turning in his grave.

Mr. Presentable

~Rebel~ wrote:

the game will just become a mockery

Become? It's already there. I suppose we can all continue to watch it though, so long as we accept it's basically the ballgame version of WWE - that is, as an entertainment form and not a sport.

PHB

Personally I think the only way to fix it is with retro-active bans for diving, 5 match ban for clear diving. Saha's dive probably wouldn't have been under that, but with the threat of the ban there, I doubt he would have done it.

Mr. Presentable

MrJoeSoap wrote:

John Giles must be turning in his grave.

There are some here who wish he was