Hit and Run

daithi

I will try be as civil as i cna while explaing this, but I am hopping mad at the moment.
I was in the new Dunnes in Beacon South Quarter this evening, parked outside the exit door, went in, did my shopping.
Arrived out to notice that there was a big dent and scrape in the side of my car.
I managed to stay calm and collected, but I was pretty cheesed,
To give some context, I take extremely good care of my car, It gets carefully washed and polished by hand most of the time, and when possible I park it away from other cars, or only beside cars that are also well kept. Any tiny door mark drives me nuts, and I have spent many hours carefully buffing them out, I take great care ensuring it looks well, and I am very proud of it.

Anyway, I went to the Dunnes security, who informed me that the car park security is responsible (seperate company), I contacted them, and they were extremly helpful, took me down to review the footage to confirm the incident actually happened there, which it did, there is good footage of the car reversing out, dinging my car and driving back in, pausing for 20-40 seconds and reversing out and driving away.
The footage is not good enough for a reg, however it would appear to be a navy/dark blue citroen XM, the old model from 00/01, I need to double check this tomorrow. I am going to get in contact with dunnes tomorrow to see about getting better footage, It happened directly outside the exit, and the car park footage shows the woman arriving, and leaving through it.

I reported the incident to the Gardai, who were as helpful as they could be given that I had very little information, however they cannot do much without a reg, They informed me to go talk to Dunnes security, etc and find out if they have anything that can identify the person, I can drop back to them then and give a better statement.

After thinking about it, I recon I have a few hopes.
1: The car is a rare model/colour (I have not seen many around) and the Gardai can trace it. It is probably local. as the woman was not alone and was dressed casually.
2: The CCTV in the shop will help identify the person, however the chances of finding someone that can identify her are very very slim.
3: The woman used her club card and the Gardai can request this information from dunnes, by identifying her from cctv and matching this with the time she went through the till (there is clear footage of her entering and exiting dunnes)
4: The woman goes home, realises that she has broken quite a few laws, and will be in a lot of trouble and decides to report the incident(unlikely)
5: I go to the beacon hotel or something and see if they have any footage of use to me (unlikely)
6: someone on boards can offer me some other options (come on,I know there are a few clever people floating around here). Perhaps someone knows of a person owning such a car in the locality, and can have a peek to see if there is any blue paint on the front right bumper.

What I would like to hear from boards members is which options are best for me, or is there an option I have not though of.

According to my research I cannot claim from MIBI, can anyone else here confirm this?

I am wondering how much information am I entitled to get from Security and what is the responsibility of the guards. My understanding is that the Gardai have much higher profile stuff to be worried about, however if i can give them half a chance of identifying the person they will do there best to help me. I had a good talk with them, and I appreciated their honesty.

CLADA

Not familiar with the area you are talking about but try some of the adjoining premises (if any) and they may have footage of the car leaving Dunnes and passing their building. If you can even get a partial number the guards can do a search on computer and may come up with a match.
Worked for me once when I was in your unfortunate position, best of luck.

mikemac

My sympathies OP. You say the footage is not good enough to identify the reg but I'm sure it can be filtered and magnified. (Ever watch 24?;) )
It's unlikely the security staff are trained to do this but maybe get a copy and ask a local photographer. Could be nonsense, just throwing this suggestion out there.

Also, she could well be local and may be there same time next week. Maybe take a spin around the car park for a few minutes over the next week or two.

You could certainly watch the store CCTV and match it to her clubcard but obviously the gardai need to get the info. Data protection laws stop you from getting this but you know this already.

Lol at Option 4

JoeA3

Hi Daithi, I'm afraid I don't have much useful advice to offer, only my sympathy. This type of stuff also drives me bonkers and I totally relate to your frustration... I too look after my car meticulously, and ignorant careless fellow drivers like that are my ultimate pet hate!!
Sadly, stuff like this happens more and more in carparks and its a grey area on who is responsible, you often see disclaimer notices in them absolving the owners of responsibility... so its a very good sign that Dunnes have been helpful. The guards should definitely follow it up, once they have a reg no, which is the tricky part as you say.... but you have a few things to go on, and luckily its also a relatively rare car too.

Good luck with it.

zAbbo

Did she have much shopping with her ?

Possibly doing the 'weekly shop', if so, return back around the same time next week.

Not totally helpful, but might be worth a shot if you're drawing blanks.

BrianD3

As you say the XM is very uncommon with late model cars being even rarer. You sure it wasn't a Citroen Xantia?

If you can get more of the reg with just a digit or two missing you could start putting some possible registrations into the free check at www.cartell.ie, after a while you'd surely stumble across the correct reg. Also as already stated the Gardai may be able to help if you have a partial reg.

JoeA3

Yeah, I was thinking that too - that it may have been a Xantia? Very similar shape to the XM, only smaller... and much more common unfortunately.

mike65

Easy to spot an XM - is got quater lights on the doors.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7f/Citroen_xm_compo.jpg

Mike.

daithi

BrianD3/Mike65 It may have been a Xantia, I am going to pop back tomorrow with a picture of the Xsara xantia and XM estates, I did note that the most rear window was noticeably higher and smaller than the rest, identifying the model wont be an issue though.
I also did not recognise it immediately, and I am normally pretty good at identifying a car given a glimpse, this gives me additional hope that it is rare. I have a feeling though that it was not large/long enough to be an XM, I will let you know tomorrow after I double check. The archive of footage on the recorder is 114 days, so i have plenty of time

micmclo: CSI...nice idea and it would be great, however that is not possible, In simple terms, you can analyse all you want, but you cannot recreate data that is not there, there are a specific number of pixels on the image, each being a unique colour, magnify a single pixel all you want, it wont reveal anything other than what colour it is. Imagine an image made of lego blocks.

zabbo: nice idea, I will give it consideration as I work nearby, I may also ask the car park/dunnes security to keep an eye out. I also know some guys working on the buildings there, I will ask them to keep their eyes peeled, and spread the word. If I can get a reg, I can find the owner on cartell, and drop over to see if it is the same person, and ask them to do the decent thing.

Everyone Else: thanks for your sympathies; It is a pet hat of mine, I have said before and I will say again, if I ever catch someone driving off without reporting as much as a door ding that leaves a dent I will report it myself, people need to know that they cant get away with this kind of thing. I am sure someone turned a blind eye, it was directly outside the door, and there were a few people around.

I wonder if I let the Gardai know that there is footage can I get her mug onto crime call, I am almost 100% sure that I will have very clear footage, and she may as well have put her hand in my pocket and robbed a couple hundred quid (just hoping it is a simple repair atm) Does anyone have any experience of this happening?

Incidentally it is the car park management company that were most helpful so far, so here is a plug for the staff of parkrite, Dunnes were helpful, however the security manager was not there so I am calling back tomorrow.

Bluetonic

daithi wrote:

I wonder if I let the Gardai know that there is footage can I get her mug onto crime call, I am almost 100% sure that I will have very clear footage, and she may as well have put her hand in my pocket and robbed a couple hundred quid (just hoping it is a simple repair atm) Does anyone have any experience of this happening?

sorry to hear the story but I presume this was said in jest?

smash

when you enter the car park does the ticketing system not register your reg in the computer? in case you loose your ticket....

wyndham

Any pics of the damage?

pburns

I understand your frustration - up to a point...
A similar thing happened to me a few weeks ago. I noticed a deep scratch mark on the wing and bonnet where somebody had stepped from a grassy bank onto my wing and bonnet. B*****ds!!
I was really peed off for the rest of the day but after that...well in the grand scheme of things **** happens....

daithi wrote:

It gets carefully washed and polished by hand most of the time, and when possible I park it away from other cars, or only beside cars that are also well kept. Any tiny door mark drives me nuts, and I have spent many hours carefully buffing them out, I take great care ensuring it looks well, and I am very proud of it.

I'm sorry but I find this type of behavior mildly obsessive. Especially the bit about hunting out spaces away from other cars. I have an elderly relative who does similar in his spotless Corolla. Fair enough if it's a concours classic that only comes out for high-days-and-holidays but a car you use every day is gonna accumulate a scuff or two - most of them probably beyond your control.

daithi wrote:

My understanding is that the Gardai have much higher profile stuff to be worried about...

I reckon so...

I realise I come across like a p***k and I'll probably get blasted for my lack of sympathy. I do understand the OP has every right to be upset. However the day I go hunting out remote parking spaces, spending my free time buffing and polishing or getting as upset as the OP is about a parking dent is the day I realise an inanimate object has waaay too much priority in my life...

Dades

pburns wrote:

I'm sorry but I find this type of behavior mildly obsessive.

Each to their own, no?

OP - I would definitely be back scouting around the car park looking for the culprit. People are creatures of habit and there's a good chance she goes there regularly.

And don't forget to bring a shovel and a bag of lime.

quarryman

Even if you find the likely suspect what proof do you have that it was them without a reg number?

The sooner the better really as they may get any damage on their own car repaired.

daithi

pburns: I see your point, I would not describe myself as obsessive, but I accept that you are bringing your own experiences, and perspective to this conversation. I dont try and keep my car permanently clean, it is impossible in this country, I just like to keep my car well, and to avoid parking it beside cars that appear to be careless drivers. You wont find me out polishing my car every week, I keep it reasonably clean, and if its rainy I dont bother, as the roads are filthy.
If you ever go to buy a second hand car, you will be appreciative of the fact that the previous owner maintained the car well, I am sure you take good care of your yourself, keep yourself clean and groomed, dont go hanging around areas you might get a random box in the teeth, and I am sure your other half appreciates it also. I do the same, but I extend it to my car also, keep it maintained, clean, and avoid getting it damaged if possible, it is a well used car, 20000 miles this year alone, but if you were driving around in a nice car that you were proud of, and given the choice between parking between two old bangers, or parking at the edge, with a flower bed on one side, and a new 6 series beamer on the other.. which would you choose.
Maybe it is a bit quirky, but this way of living my life has gotten me a long way, and a lot of success.

I may upload pics of the damage, I will have to clean the car first, as its pretty dirty after the weekends driving. The damage is not serious, but will be expensive to repair none the less, the damage extends over the passenger door, so the paint is scraped on the door, and the bend in the metal behind the door, the metal behind the door is dented on the bend, so I am guessing this is not an easy mend. The scrape is a small area, but is down to the metal, probably about a 2-3cm diameter. I do not believe there is any dent in the door, but i will have to have a closer look.

Bluetonic: It was half said in jest, but as pburns said, I will probably calm down eventually, but this kind of thing makes my blood boil. I have seen plenty of footage on crimecall for minor incidents, people passing off fake money, cashing cheques, this is not that far off, it could easily cost me a lot of money to fix this, she may as well have smashed my window and robbed the money out of my car.

I will let you know if I get anywhere with my investigations. I will probably calm down eventually, the damage is not that serious, but since every tiny nick in my car annoys me, I will never be able to look at my car the same again until it is repaired.

daithi

Atheist: I like your style. I am not going to leave this go easily.

quarryman: See item 3 in my initial post, I will be able to get footage of her entering and leaving the store, it should be real easy to spot her at the checkout, if she used her dunnes clubcard then this should be traceable by the gardai.
I work as a Software Engineer, so I know this is very doable, and I spent a few months installing/configuraing Digital CCTV systems a few years ago, so I understand that side perfectly well also.

i doubt there is any damage to her car. it was just a rub from the side of the bymper, she was reversing out, and decided to turn instead of reversing out straight. If she was to stay going that direction, she would have had to shunt my car at least a meter to get her own car out at that angle.
completely ridiculous driving.

Does anyone know If I am entitled to get a copy of any of this cctv footage. I do not know the complexities of the data protection act. Can I request all footage of my own car?

daithi

I contacted the security manager at Dunnes over lunch, he was very helpful, and said he would contact me later after investigating the incident.
He said he would help in any way he could in getting a reg, or a picture of the person, and would contact park rite security so that they could combine their data to identify the person.
Fingers crossed, they can get something for me.

equaliser

Hey, well I recommend that pure persistance will pay off in the end, dont give up and hopefully we will see a resolution to this incident on this thread.
Id recommend you clarify make model colour and as much detail as possible and give cartell a ring, maybe there might be 50 cars like that in Ireland, but how many registered in Dublin, say 20? If its common then theres not much point, but if it rare enough maybe you could be in luck. That might be a good starting list to approach the gardai with.
Also on the pixels, you are correct, enhancing one image is futile, but enhancing a composite of several images should sharpen the image. Tis a bit like CSI but maybe if you make it a matter of dogged principle it could be worthwhile.
Also what is stopping you putting up a few posters of the person and the car and leaving your phone number i.e Have you seen this person?
if they are a local you will find them quickly enough.
Em

daithi

equaliser: Interesting one with the composite of several frames, thats a new one for me. But there is only birds eye view footage for now, the incident is clearly recorded, but the angle is not good enough to even see the reg, let alone make it out. But maybe Dunnes have better footage.
I intend on being persistent, I have considered leaving notices up, of all information that I can get, I may print off some posters, leave them on the inside of the windows of my car, and park my car there for a few hours each day (I work nearby) I would guess that neither park rite or Dunnes will allow me to put up notices, but I will ask.
I also have created a printout of all possible models of car that I think it is, I am going to return to the security team this evening to review the footage and positively identify the make model and color.
The guards can easily let me know if there are few or many of that type locally.

Del2005

I'd definately go to other places nearby that may have CCTV looking onto the road. Give them the time she left Dunnes and see if any can spot the car and give you the reg. Can you make out the reg of the car from any other cameras in the car park? As I doubt very much they'd only have a signle high level camera in a car park, they need to cover everywhere in case someone tries to claim for a fall etc.

Happened to me once and luckily the person left contact details. Let them away as the car wasn't badly damaged and wasn't worth the hassle of going to panel beater/respray.

daithi

I have seen all the angles from the car park cameras, and the best angle just shows the incident, they are generally birds eye views to maximise coverage. If they want to get a reg, they can use the motorised cameras to move in.
They do not have any cameras at the entry/exit. I will have a look again this evening at surrounding buildings/businesses though.

milltown

Del2005 wrote:

I'd definately go to other places nearby that may have CCTV looking onto the road. Give them the time she left Dunnes and see if any can spot the car and give you the reg.

TBH I'm amazed he's gotten this far with it. Kudos to Dunnes and Park Rite. My car and many of my colleagues' cars have been pranged, dinged or scraped in our company car park which is covered by many cameras. Whenever anyone has sought help from security, they feign interest and seem helpful, before coming back with "the camera wasn't facing that direction at the time". From other people it seems this is the stock response to any car damage in a car park. The cameras are there to protect people, not their property.

My condolences Daithí. You're lucky the incident was caught on camera and I'd probably have the bit between my teeth too if there was enough to have a chance of identifying the biatch. However, I'll have to play devil's advocate and suggest that you're mad if you think the gards will go to the trouble of tracking someone by their clubcard for the sake of a dented door.

Keep us posted.

Del2005

milltown wrote:

My condolences Daithí. You're lucky the incident was caught on camera and I'd probably have the bit between my teeth too if there was enough to have a chance of identifying the biatch. However, I'll have to play devil's advocate and suggest that you're mad if you think the gards will go to the trouble of tracking someone by their clubcard for the sake of a dented door.

Don't forget that she left the scene of an accident, which AFAIK is an offence. Also from Daithi's posts it appears if he can get a reg they'll go after her, but if no reg no luck.

daithi

Again, another long message, if nothing else this is a good way to vent my frustration although it is beginning to feel like a mini blog

Del2005: Indeed, she appears to have committed a number of offenses, which if pushed could lead to a driving ban, or a conviction, but i have not researched it fully. I think it is an offense to leave the scene of an accident, as is failing to exchange insurance details and/or not reporting it within 24 hours (I have no legal knowledge, so I would appreciate it if anyone can clarify this, or define it clearly)
At the end of the day I just don't want to have to fork out my hard earned money to pay for someone else's incompetence, Id much rather spend the money on myself, or use it to pay for my upcoming car service and car tax renewal.

Progress wise; I talked to the Dunnes security again and I will need to meet with the car park security manager tomorrow to get the exact times and a description of the person, the amount of shopping they were carrying and if they were accompanied, Dunnes security can then let me know if she can be traced to the tills to see if she used a card, which they are confident they should be able to do.

I was talking to a friend this evening who suggested that if she did not use a value card then she may have used a credit or laser card, which gives me a little more hope

For anyone that is interested to find out the approach that has earned me as much cooperation as I have gotten thus far(I have even surprised myself)....

Firstly, I am lucky in that I am dealing with professionals, and I dealt with them in return in a professional manner, I simply requested to see a manager without going into any details. In advance I made sure to collect myself, and leave my emotions out of it before composing my thoughts. This was not easy to do.
I was conscious not to try and spread my anger and stress. If I was to approach someone in a raging temper, freaking out, or being aggressive or emotional, any person would have just wished me to leave as soon as possible.
When I met with the manager, I explained my situation, explained how they may be able to help me, and asked them politely for their help, which I got, I then kept my mouth shut and allowed them to do their job.
Treating people with respect and manners will get you everywhere when dealing with decent people.

I should know tomorrow evening if she can be traced, I will keep this thread informed.

daithi

milltown: If it is possible to trace her by her card, then I am confident that she will be traced.
When I went to the station, I simply stated my case quickly and clearly, along with my theories about how the person might be tracked down, I informed them that I did not expect them to perform investigation miracles, and asked them to tell me what my best course of action should be. The basic message I got was that if I was to go do a little investigating myself and find a way of identifying the person, then the gardai would be willing to follow it up. Realistically, they do not have the resources to do this for me, and personally I would prefer that they are out there preventing crime then investigating small stuff like this. The guard I was dealing with was telling me of the many cases they get in of similar incidents that are impossible to investigate, they had 4 that day alone that were complete dead ends.

Regarding your own issues with car park security, If you cannot get anywhere by trying to deal with people professionally then you should consider escalating the issue to higher management, or at least threatening to do it.

daithi

I went through the CCTV footage this evening with the security guys in Dunnes, I had the full descriptions of the people, but we were unable to spot them, The camera that covers the exit was unfortunately turned to watch a different area, which was quite unfortunate. and the times of the CCTv in the car park was off by 7 or 8 minutes.
Hats off to the guys there though, they really did give it 100%, well beyond anything I expected from them. I must have been there about an hour or so.
I could not positively identify the model of the car either, I recon it is actually a peugeot 306 estate, but that wont get me anywhere.

The guys said they might pop down to the security guys in the car parl to view the footage, and give it another go, but I doubt they will have the time to do this.

Excellent people though, true professionals. But I think I will just have to leave it go.
I might pop back next week at the same time though.

milltown

Hard luck Daithi. Do let us know if you spot her over the next few weeks though. If you do, and you get talking to her, call her bluff over the quality of what's on tape and offer her the choice of paying for the damage she caused or letting the cops deal with the leaving the scene offence. If you have any doubts about whether you have the right woman, how she reacts should let you know for sure.

I'm very, very impressed with the support you got from the security bods. I think a glowing letter to management is in order there.

Regarding our own security and cameras, the general concensus is that it's probably management's instructions that the footage is not used to confirm damage caused on the property. Possibly to avoid any liability issues. Possibly because they see their purpose as safeguarding "their" people and company property.
Difficult to escalate anyway when the security personnel are perfectly courteous and professional and appear sympathetic and keen to help.