It's okay to be big.

Dudess

From your description of yourself, no, you are not fat or obese. But what about a person who is carrying an extra five stone of fat? It's fair to say that such a person is obese.

Nevyn

This thread is not about it is ok to be obese ( which it never is ) this thread is about how it is ok to be big.

I would be of the same build of Joy in the you tube video that Jesjes linked to.

Some people are never meant to be what is seen as thin and if they are they are putting their health and lives at risk the same as some people are never meant to be that fat ( fat not big ).

If your fat or flab is getting you down then do something about it, but there are women and men out there who will be big and that is something that can not be changed and they need to learn to love them self and see that it is ok to be big.

nesf

Thaedydal wrote:

This thread is not about it is ok to be obese ( which it never is ) this thread is about how it is ok to be big.

The issue with this isn't people with naturally large frames and a lot of muscle being big, it's people who are very fat convincing themselves that they've large frames etc.

If people are honest with themselves there isn't a problem, but people aren't very strong in this area generally. There's the same issue in the reverse position with people who are underweight. Some people are naturally very light with small frames etc, but some people who are very light are just undernourished and are on the path to serious health problems.


Edit: This actually comes back to one of the key flaws of the BMI (as applied naively to individuals). It just doesn't work if you've an unusual frame size in either direction.

Dudess

Yes Thaedydal. Using the term "big", the OP was referring to those who are overweight/obese and who feel really crap about themselves, and offering reassurance that there's nothing wrong with them.
She was saying that it's not healthy to be really overweight but it doesn't mean you should hate yourself and lead an unfulfilling life and miss out on lots.
She's right but as I already said, some people who are overweight CAN'T bring themselves to think this way.

g'em

Dudess wrote:

She was saying that it's not healthy to be really overweight but it doesn't mean you should hate yourself and lead an unfulfilling life and miss out on lots.

Is that what's being said? And if it is, isn't that avoiding the issue of health completely? Or are we saying that it's ok to be heavy as long as you're doing something about it? Or how about preventing yourself from getting overweight in the first place? And how about being responsible for yourself and your health? Where do we draw the line between excuses and acceptance?

I'm saying that purely provocatively. But btw Thaed - according to the BMI I'm obese right now, all size 12-14 of me but I receive much of the same attitude about my size. Needless to say this is because of my high muscle mass, which I carry for my chosen sport. If I didn't have it, I wouldn't be good at what I do, simple as. But if it wasn't for my sport I'm not sure I'd be happy being this 'big' (even though I'm really not that big according to my clothes labels... unless anything over a size 10 is regarded as fat which seems to be the case in most magazines these days ). I feel happier in my own skin when I'm slightly smaller than this. That is, were it not for there being a reason why I'm carrying so much 'bigness' I'm not so sure that I *could* be content being the way I am.

nesf

g'em wrote:

Is that what's being said? And if it is, isn't that avoiding the issue of health completely? Or are we saying that it's ok to be heavy as long as you're doing something about it? Or how about preventing yourself from getting overweight in the first place? And how about being responsible for yourself and your health? Where do we draw the line between excuses and acceptance?

The issue of health and the issue of acceptance/happiness are invariably intertwined. Similar to the health/happiness issues of smoking. If someone is aware of the risks but continues to smoke because they enjoy it (along with the helping hand of addiction, of course) should they be let be or encouraged (or even forced) to stop?

The "It's okay to be big" sentiment is problematic purely because it's fuzzy and ill-defined. Are people who agree with it implicitly saying morbid obesity is ok? Not necessarily. Are people who disagree saying that being a little overweight or just having a large frame is a character flaw and needs fixing in some way? Not necessarily. This is what causes all the fuss imho.

Dudess

g'em wrote:

Is that what's being said? And if it is, isn't that avoiding the issue of health completely? Or are we saying that it's ok to be heavy as long as you're doing something about it? Or how about preventing yourself from getting overweight in the first place? And how about being responsible for yourself and your health? Where do we draw the line between excuses and acceptance?

The OP has made it clear all right that being overweight is not to be recommended, but if you are overweight, don't be down on yourself. Believe in yourself and don't feel you have to miss out on different stuff because of your weight. It's a confusing one. I think if you're overweight and down on yourself, then do something about it. But if you're overweight and couldn't give a **** and you're still really confident, then good for you - the thing is, you are risking your health. What the OP is saying is that nobody who's overweight - whether they plan on doing nothing about it, or whether they plan on losing three stone - should be in the depths of despair because of their weight.

g'em

Out of curiosity, and please don't answer if you don't want to, it's sheer nosiness on my part Dudess or Jesjes are you, or have you, ever been overweight?

The only reason I ask:

Dudess wrote:

What the OP is saying is that nobody who's overweight... should be in the depths of despair because of their weight.

^^ a sentiment that's easy on the ears, but almost certainly misplaced and misunderstood unless it's a situation you've been in.

Dudess

g'em, you misunderstand me. Thaedydal seemed to misinterpret the point Jesjes was making, so I explained it. I'm not really in the Jesjes camp but she's getting frustrated at how people seem to be missing her point! And I know the feeling - it's one of the few disadvantages of Boards! My view on this can be summed up in my first post to this thread:

But if your size is dragging you down, then actually trying to reduce your size would be far more beneficial than simply training yourself to think "I'm not gonna let my size get me down".

Suaimhneach

Thaedydal wrote:

This has to be the most frustrating thread I have read in a very , very long time here on boards.

Big does not always equal fat and obese.

Agreed!

I think this dicussion has evolved from what I originially said to a debate about what is "okay".

If anyone cares for my opinion on the matter, it is this. It is not okay to be obese, or very overweight. I do not endorse this. It is not even a good thing to be JUST overweight. But *if* you are (this original sentiment being aimed at those who would be reading this forum, say those who are looking to get fitter, and not current boardsters) anyway, IF YOU ARE over weight, it is not the end of the world, love yourself and get on with life.

Now, I think there is room for clarification here. If someone is unhappy with their size and they want or need to change, I am not saying they shouldnt, I am just saying that how they are now shouldnt stop them finding happiness. I didnt mean to be encouraging people to stay how they are becuase they can be happy that way.

I mean, no offense to the current posters/debaters but if you've never been over weight, or known someone who is over weight it can be a debilitating thing. It can stop someone from doing the simpliest things like making freinds, going for a drink or even being seen outside. Tbh, this thread was started by me because the rest of the forum was so gloomy and depressing in my eyes. I was trying to inject a bit of positivity and happiness, not encourage people to stay fat and just learn to live with it.

Ffs.

Dudess

This is contradictory - on the one hand you say:

IF YOU ARE over weight, it is not the end of the world, love yourself and get on with life.

But then you say:

it can be a debilitating thing. It can stop someone from doing the simpliest things like making freinds, going for a drink or even being seen outside.

So as you've just illustrated yourself, it's not easy for an overweight person dragged down by their size to start loving themselves as you've advised. But I get that you're just reassuring them that they're ok.
And Thaedydal expressed frustration because she felt those of a large build (but not actually fat) were unfairly being referred to as fat, overweight or obese. To be fair, when you said "big is ok" originally, you WERE referring to people who are overweight or obese.

Froot

She is fat.

Dudess

Care to elaborate?

Suaimhneach

Dudess wrote:

So as you've just illustrated yourself, it's not easy for an overweight person dragged down by their size to start loving themselves as you've advised. But I get that you're just reassuring them that they're ok.

That was my point, why cant it be left at that?

Dudess wrote:

And Thaedydal expressed frustration because she felt those of a large build (but not actually fat) were unfairly being referred to as fat, overweight or obese.

How is that relevant? Just wondering, it seems out of context.

Dudess wrote:

To be fair, when you said "big is ok" originally, you WERE referring to people who are overweight or obese.

Was I now? Thanks for letting me know, for surely I, who wrote that myself, wouldnt know what I was talking about.

Sangre

I'm not really sure what Theads long post was trying to illustrate. Surely the OP only was referring to overweight/obese people in the original video and not people of large frames? I doubt the OP is trying to comfort a 6'1' supermodel thats its ok to be tall or telling a rugby players its ok to big, its not the end of the world. No, the original post only really makes sense in an overweight/obese context so I'm not sure why Thaed is giving out being lumped in this category. If you're large framed but not fat you won't look fat as you'll have no unsightly lumps or bumps.

Big does not always equal fat and obese.

Did anyone claim it did? I doubt anyone cares what clothes size someone is if they're fit/trim or even slightly overweight.


p.s. thead I've noticed you reference womens clothese sizes a few times on posts about weight. is it a big deal to women to be in a certain range? i've literally no idea what size would equate to what in real life. tbh, ive only one method of deciding is I'm/someone is fat, my eyes.

Dudess

Jesjes wrote:

Was I now? Thanks for letting me know, for surely I, who wrote that myself, wouldnt know what I was talking about.

Because you said it!

Jesjes wrote:

It is so important to be fit and healthy, and I am not taking away from that when I say "It's okay to be big". I just want to put it out there that it's not completely debilitating to be bigger, you can still live life to the full. It's not a disability, (within reason of course). Being over weight should not stop anyone having fun or going out or being happy.

Jesjes wrote:

How is that relevant? Just wondering, it seems out of context.

Because you were saying you agreed with Thaedydal when she conceded that being big (as in, broadly built) does not equal being fat or obese, as if that was the point you were making originally, when it wasn't.

Suaimhneach

Sangre, I was referring to anyone, at any size (but in relation to the people on this forum to the point where I posted the thread being big) being happy in their skin. Simple. Get on with life and dont let size stop you being happy.

Is that actually hard to understand? Because this thread is leading me to some serious doubts about the abilities of the members of Boards.ie

Suaimhneach

Jesjes wrote:

Check this YouTube video out.

It is so important to be fit and healthy, and I am not taking away from that when I say "It's okay to be big". I just want to put it out there that it's not completely debilitating to be bigger, you can still live life to the full. It's not a disability, (within reason of course). Being over weight should not stop anyone having fun or going out or being happy. Other peoples judgements of you shouldnt matter.

If you have a healthy attitude you're much likelier to be a healthy person in mind and body.

A suggestion to the mod: Anonymous posting being enabled. Weight is a senative issue for a lot of people, maybe unreg posting should be available? (though this does require extra modding to be sure of no trolling).

Anyway, I just happened across this forum, and I'm all for posting helpful tips and encouraging people, but I think its important that people stay positive, and I dunno... the forum didnt give me that impression! I know its new tho, so wee!

THIS IS WHAT I SAID!!! Read it again, slowly. Just read the first two paragraphs. Read them before replying. Actually read and hear what I said. This debate is waaaaaaaaaaay off based on what I started out with.

Suaimhneach

You said:

Dudess wrote:

To be fair, when you said "big is ok" originally, you WERE referring to people who are overweight or obese.

I originally said:

Jesjes wrote:

It is so important to be fit and healthy, and I am not taking away from that when I say "It's okay to be big". I just want to put it out there that it's not completely debilitating to be bigger, you can still live life to the full. It's not a disability, (within reason of course). Being over weight should not stop anyone having fun or going out or being happy. Other peoples judgements of you shouldnt matter.

If you have a healthy attitude you're much likelier to be a healthy person in mind and body.

Tell me where I specifically refer to overweight/obese. The one term I use in bold is not a specific, it was intended to be a generalisation so anyone could take the peice of information (BE HAPPY IN YOUR SKIN) and hopefully hear it.


What baffles me the most is why people have a problem with it.

Dudess

You're getting frustrated by reactions to your opening post, I'm starting to get frustrated by the fact that you come out with something like this:

I was referring to anyone, at any size (but in relation to the people on this forum to the point where I posted the thread being big) being happy in their skin. Simple. Get on with life and dont let size stop you being happy.

when there are overweight people who CAN'T "be happy in their skin" or "get on with life" or not let size stop them being happy.
You even made the point yourself about being overweight:

it can be a debilitating thing. It can stop someone from doing the simpliest things like making freinds, going for a drink or even being seen outside.

I repeat, I think what you're saying is well intentioned, but difficult for a lot of people to take on board. Maybe if you worded it differently. Saying something like "don't be so tough on yourself, you don't deserve it" but not "get on with life" or "be happy in your skin".

Dudess

To answer your question:

Jesjes wrote:

Being over weight should not stop anyone having fun or going out or being happy

Suaimhneach

Fair enough. Point taken. *shrug* I am not, nor will I be at any point in the future be bothered about how ppl interpret my well intentioned intentions. Tbh, fúcked if I am bothering again based on this thread

I was getting frustrated based on my opening post. Based on your new point, I agree, some people cant be, understandably so. Sad for them, I wish them the best (tho I wont start a thread about it.)

g'em

Jesjes, that's twice within the same thread you've insulted the intelligence of your fellow posters. Consider this a last warning and kindly keep your posts courteous.

Suaimhneach

G'em, not a word to Froot?

Can you give me a warning based on something I said that was generalised and not specific to a poster, hardly seems fair. Amn't I meant to get some kind of "First warning"? I think I've been fairly courteous considering teh amount of flack I've gotten from this thread.

Also, can you point out the two insults. THe only possible one I can see is:

Is that actually hard to understand? Because this thread is leading me to some serious doubts about the abilities of the members of Boards.ie

Which wasnt aimed at a person.

g'em

In post #35 you call your fellow posters fools, I noted it. In post #68 you question "the abilities of the members of Boards.ie". Having previously asked you to watch your conduct it hardly gives a good impression.

No-one is having a go at you, it's just a hotly discussed topic. The discussion has veered away from the vein that you started the thread in but that's ok, it's still relevant to the issue at hand. Frankly, it's still a healthy debate over an issue that's extremely relevant to the forum and is still OT within the context of the thread. I'm not getting at you either, just asking that you refrain from calling the other posters names. Hardly an irrational request?

Edit: Froot hasn't actually insulted anyone, merely expressed a rather limited opinion, adding little or nothing to the discussion. But no rules broken.

Dudess

Jesjes, I'd appreciate if you read back over my replies - I'm certainly not having a go at you. And I know what you're saying - you want to make the point to those who are miserable about their weight that they're actually ok and they shouldn't be so hung-up. That is well-intentioned, no doubt. But for me it raises further concerns - try as I might to just leave your point at that, I can't.

Suaimhneach

Not an irrational request, however serving me with a "final warning" might be overkill. (I did not recieve any notice to "watch my conduct", nor did I read it, I might have missed it if you posted it, as you said yourself it is a hotly discussed topic)

I dont think non-specific insults to people who were missing my point (at the point where my post was being discussed and not the thread changing direction) warrents your reaction. A simple PM might have been much more to the point.

Edit: Also, Froot contributed nothing and undermined anyone reading or part taking the thread by saying what he said. In other forums that, not what I've done would warrent a "final warning", or maybe just a first one.

Suaimhneach

Dudess wrote:

Jesjes, I'd appreciate if you read back over my replies - I'm certainly not having a go at you. And I know what you're saying - you want to make the point to those who are miserable about their weight that they're actually ok and they shouldn't be so hung-up. That is well-intentioned, no doubt. But for me it raises further concerns - try as I might to just leave your point at that, I can't.

As I said, fair enough. I respect your point, and I see what you're getting at. You're right, it is at this point when the thread changes from what I originally said to a new debate, one I dont want part in mind you.

I didnt mean to get at you specifically either, it seems the medium of text communication slows down our ability to hear what people are actually saying.

g'em

Jesjes wrote:

Not an irrational request, however serving me with a "final warning" might be overkill. (I did not recieve any notice to "watch my conduct", nor did I read it, I might have missed it if you posted it, as you said yourself it is a hotly discussed topic)

I took for granted that asking you not to call other posters fools would be considered a request to refrain from doing it, or similar, again. I'll make myself clearer in future (that's not a smart-arsed comment btw!)

Jesjes wrote:

Edit: Also, Froot contributed nothing and undermined anyone reading or part taking the thread by saying what he said. In other forums that, not what I've done would warrent a "final warning", or maybe just a first one.

Aye, but this is my forum Froot did indeed contribute nothing, but I don't see that harm was done.

I'll leave this open for now, I think everyone has agreed that it's been a case of misunderstanding about the finer points of the opening post, but this is still an important topic for discussion, so if anyone wants to keep going, work away.

Nevyn

Sangre wrote:

Did anyone claim it did? I doubt anyone cares what clothes size someone is if they're fit/trim or even slightly overweight.

Anyone how is not 'normal' sized who has a bloody awkward time getting clothes that fit right never mind ones to suit their taste and style.

Sangre wrote:

p.s. thead I've noticed you reference womens clothes sizes a few times on posts about weight. is it a big deal to women to be in a certain range? i've literally no idea what size would equate to what in real life. tbh, ive only one method of deciding is I'm/someone is fat, my eyes.

Put it this way Sangre up until 5 years ago the only shops that did a size 18 was Evans which goes from size 18 to size 32.

Womens clothes are are not sold as mens are with label that says a range of waist and length measurements.

WOMEN'S

SIZE BUST WAIST HIPS
6 30 1/2 23 32 1/2
8 31 1/2 24 33 1/2
10 32 1/2 25 34 1/2
12 34 26 1/2 36
14 36 28 38
16 38 30 40
18 40 32 42
20 42 34 44



Many clothes do not stick items in a size 16 or above and those that will do will only do so in certain ranges.

It is the difference between being able to wear what you want off the rack and in a short amount of time or shopping for 1 blouse that will fit propery
in the shoulders, sleeves, waist and bust taking 3 days in and out of several shops.

You can have a spot on body fat precentage and still not be able to get clothes to fit.

Froot

She carries weight in excess of the optimal amount she should be carrying.

Of course everyone else does too, but over 20% extra = obese. She is clearly carrying 20% more than her optimal weight so she is obese.

Q.E.D.

justsomebloke

Froot wrote:

but over 20% extra = obese. She is clearly carrying 20% more than her optimal weight so she is obese.

If possible can you please indicate where you got this figure from and can you also clarify if you think the 20% BF = obese is true for both men and women?

Nevyn

Seem like he pulled that number out of his ass tbh.

Female fat % rates



they are a lot different to the % to men cos guess what men and women are different .

Description
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_fat_percentage

Women Men
Essential fat 12-15% 2-5%
Athletes 16–20% 6–13%
Fitness 21–24% 14–17%
Acceptable 25–31% 18–25%
Obese 32%+ 25%+

Dragan

It should be noted that Froot did say over 20% EXTRA would be obese, and is technically right if it was his/her ( sorry, don't know if your male or female ) intention to imply a level above "acceptable" as posted by Thy.

eth0_

Thaedydal wrote:

This thread is about telling people it is ok to be big not fat.
There are some people who will never be smaller then a size 16 with out damaging thier health, they are just big and a certain size does not mean a person is fat.

Oh please. Unless you have a medical problem like a thyroid issue or prader-willi syndrom, you're fat because you *eat too much and do not exercise*.

I find it very hard to believe that some people are naturally obese. Can you point us to a source if this is true?

Dudess

That's not what she's saying. In fact she emphasised that being obese is not a good thing. The point she's making is that some people are big - as in, built broadly - and they shouldn't be referred to as fat.

neuro-praxis

I only know one woman who is genuinely "broad" - she is 6'2" inches tall and has a broad frame. Genuinely big boned, "muscular" arms and legs, etc. However, she is absolutely stunning looking - a true natural beauty - and she is a size 16. I have never met another woman like her - I think she is rare. Perhaps Thaed is built like this too. It has to be pointed out that these kinds of women are few and far between, but they do exist. I imagine if my tall friend really wanted to she could drop a couple of dress sizes, but it would be ridiculous - she is absolutely in proportion.

Personally at 5'11", the reason I have had trouble getting clothes to fit (18-20) is because I'm fat. No big bones on me. (Although I hasten to add the weight is falling off and I've dropped a dress size already. )

One well-known aspect of the "fat mindset" is a strong belief that you cannot lose weight - that there is something different about you that means you see repeated failure. It's a very painful and self-defeating mindset - I had this mindset myself for a long time. Sometimes women shift from this position of internal failure to "Well, I'm fine as I am". I have been tempted to do it myself. The battle with weight can be so soul-destroying.

Froot

jsb wrote:

If possible can you please indicate where you got this figure from and can you also clarify if you think the 20% BF = obese is true for both men and women?

Where the f*ck did everyone read bodyfat in my post???

I said +20% weight, jesus christ.

Directly quoting myself, highlighting as I see fit:

She carries weight in excess of the optimal amount she should be carrying.

Of course everyone else does too, but over 20% extra = obese. She is clearly carrying 20% more than her optimal weight so she is obese.

Q.E.D.

dutch boy

she might be pleased with herself, that doesn't mean its healthy or that people will think its "beautiful"

"The absolute waist circumference (>102 cm in men and >88 cm in women) or waist-hip ratio (>0.9 for men and >0.85 for women)[8] are both used as measures of central obesity."

if she is happy with increased risk of heart attacks, various diseases, particularly cardiovascular diseases, diabetes mellitus type 2, sleep apnea and arthritis, then good for her, let her have her big mac, shake and nuggets and let nature take its course.

On the other hand if you have some self respect and a bit of motivation to change how healthy you are then enjoy your long and healthy life.

p.s. she looks like a bucket of smashed crabs, with or without the tyre on her waist.

g'em

Right, that's quite enough of that.