Cop Shot!

Scoobydoobydoo

I used to think that it was a good thing the Gardai weren't armed but I think it's time this changed. A baton or mace spray isn't going to be much use against the many well armed vermin they will be facing. It's a pity but that's the way it is.

Manic Moran

Trojan911 wrote:

I would say no to this. There was a big debate on this issue in the UK some years back & all they did was up the Armed response Units.

I hang out on a British board a lot, and a similar topic came up last week. Apparently they recently took a survey of rank-and-file officers (as opposed to asking the administrators up in their towers). The vast majority wished they didn't need to be armed, but a moderate majority felt it was necessary.

Up until 1936, British police were armed as a matter of routine, leaving it up to the individual constable if he felt it were required or not. Carried inconspicuously in a pocket, instead of on a hip holster as we'd know it today. .455 Webleys were apparently the sidearm of choice. After that date, it was up to the discretion of the Sergeant if the constable needed it or not. It wasn't until 1956 that British police were much more restricted in firearms issuance, with 'pulses' happening at various times. For example, in the 1980s, one in five London constables were armed, and a couple of years ago the city of Nottingham armed beat bobbies with external sidearms for a couple of months. It's actually at the discretion of the local chief, it's not a nationally mandated policy that British police be routinely unarmed. However, I'm not sure that the Garda in this case would have been any better off for it.

the US has a higher rate of crime than Ireland

Actually, I'm not sure that's true. I'll be fairly willing to accept that the US has a higher violent crime rate, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if the non-violent crime rate were lower. I'll put pounds to pennies that the burglary rate is lower in the US, for example. (Although this may be distorted by the fact that we can and do shoot burglars here.) Whether the low 'non-violent' crime rate manages to outweigh the effects of the violent crime rate, I guess the figures would have to show.

If the garda had been shot dead i would understand totally closure but he's STABLE

I never understood that philosophy. It's like saying that attempted murder should be punished less severely than murder. The only difference between the two is that the victim was lucky enough to live in one case. Certainly it's not due to any difference in intent, which surely should be what counts? If someone wants to go around shooting Gardai, I would hope that they'd make best effort to catch them, even if he missed.


NTM

Orange69

0ubliette wrote:

Wow, some quickly googled internet 'research' is really going to win that argument. Lived in the states last year and not once was i mugged, slagged for no reason walking down the street, both of which have happened to me in my own area in dublin. The people are friendlier and nicer than any area of dublin ive ever been too but feel free to google 'irish crime rates versus US crime rates' if it makes you feel better.

Similar experience myself.. The US just felt much more civilized, people were much friendlier and there was a real sense of community even in the cities.. I saw no senseless vandalism or street fights even in the drinking areas.. Walking through the streets of Cambridge/Boston felt 1000 times safer than when i lived in Dublin, where i was mugged once and our house was burglarized once and attempted a second time..

I used to lived on a ground floor apartment in Boston in a disadvantaged area (all i could afford) and i felt perfectly safe having my window open onto the street all night..

Im not trying to get in an argument, this is just my experience..

MooseJam

I think the guards should be armed as a matter of course

nyarlothothep

Yeah, they should be equipped with guns, bigger batons and dobermans. A good solution would appear to be zero tolerance combined with social initiative programs.

timmywex

DarkJager wrote:

Here in Limerick, the situation has gotten so out of hand, that we now have ERU patrols (armed) driving around the citys trouble hotspots. AFAIK, they are on orders to incapacitate anybody seen brandishing a firearm.

are you seriously saying they are on a shot to kill policy?? or shot to injure? thats b*ll wherever you heard that, my dad was an armed garda for years, he only drew his weapon twice at anyone(excluding raids etc where he had it out already) and at that never shot it. The gardai have a strict policy on firing a weapon, can only be a last resort. reasoning MUST happen fist, as seen with this inquest from the lusk senario and abbeylara. Every bullet that is discharged ina public area has to be filed up and investigated.

Mrs. MacGyver

To be honest as a resident of the North Strand Area, it's quite frightening.
Hope the policeman make a full recovery.

markk06

timmywex wrote:

my dad was an armed garda for years, he only drew his weapon twice at anyone and at that never shot it.

Yeah but i also note that your hometown is "back arse of nowhere" so it is safe to assume that your dad worked somewhere similar??

Things are different in Dublin timmy! Its all well and good driving around wexford in an old mondeo but i think things might be different if you are responding to shootings and bank raids in some of dublins "hot spots" where the lovely dealers buy in automatic weapons which are designed to pierce armour

op hope the Garda makes a full recovery

lemansky

Two of the lads from Road Wars spent some time over in the US to make a documentary.............they said that they felt much safer being in a position where they confront criminals over there, rather than the same situation here. They said that when they approach a car to tell the driver a tail light is out they are jumpy, but in America, the procedures they use, the presence of a gun, it all made it better. Firearms don't have to be used to do their job in policing.

Oh and I know a Garda through a friend who draws his weapon everyday(excluding raids as they don't count in these discussions). They dont need to fire them and the outcome is always a victory to the Guards. Why?The threat of a gun. Would it have been the same outcome without a gun?No. The Gardaí need more guns out there, this doesnt however mean that they will use them or that it will in somehow worsen the situation.

lemansky

timmywex wrote:

my dad was an armed garda for years, he only drew his weapon twice at anyone(excluding raids etc where he had it out already) and at that never shot it.

Not getting into an argument but that was just his experience, other armed Gardaí draw weapons everyday.

coyote6

Zambia232 wrote:

What ?

I don't get you

I say arm the Gardai. The cops here are armed and always will be.

A scumbag with a firearm should not turn a cop into a defenceless entity.

I've been an American cop for 10 years. I can tell you this: My wife and 4 kids sure are glad I go to work armed. I am too. I owe it to them to do everything in my power to come home without any extra holes in me.

The issue is TRAINING. I've been a trainer for some time and I think GOOD training and GOOD policy is key. The leaders of any police force need to lead from the front and not be selective in the enforcement of policies and procedures. Officer conduct must be above reproach. The department culture MUST be that ordered to prevent stupid s*#% from happening. The ethos of the Garda must be one of integrity. THEN and only then roll out armed Garda.

cjt156

cjt156 wrote:

WOW!!!

now you've done it - OK; show us some stats.

US safer than Ireland???[/QUOTNew York is definitely safer than Dublin.

MrPudding

MrPudding wrote:

I woul dhave thought that knowing you were approaching a stolen car would be quite valuable information. No?



Sh1t. I am really of of date on the news. I did not reasilse the crime problem in the states had been solved. I am presuming as you are so sure that 3 strikes and longer prison sentences in hard prisons will solve our problem overnight you can show a country that does this and it has been a success?

MrP

From what i saw of the news earlier, i was under the impression that the car had been stolen earlier in the year (May) and the owner had spotted it in the area. He rang it in, the Garda on the bike spotted it and flagged it down. The passenger got out and shot him with a sawn-off. If this is true (and it may be complete twaddle........I was watching it in a pub @ lunchtime with the sound down low), then they were obviously going to do a job in the area.

The worse part is that they just shot him, instead of getting out, pointing the gun at him and telling him to GTFOutta there, and just throwing the keys off the bike down onto the tracks. I'd be willing to bet that if they're caught, that they're pretty hardened criminals.

As for the 3 strikes rule, it's a HUGE HUGE mistake. In the states, any crook that has 2 strikes finds it easier to get away with hold-ups etc. by killing any witnesses/by-standers, rather than leave somebody who can later identify them. After all, if the sentence is the same whether you kill someone or not, why leave it to chance?

Manic Moran

Going back off-topic for a bit, as I was having lunch at the local In-N-Out (Opposite an armed public transport cop), going from the relative crime rate discussion, I was having a think about the crimes that my family have been on the receiving end of, and where they happened. Of course, purely annecdotal and not proving of anything, but food for thought.

Of the 27 appropriate years of my life (I'm 32, but five were spent in Belgium), split 13 and 14 years in the US and Ireland, also split 5-5-9-8 (US-IRL-IRL-US) I am aware of the following transgressions. These are not headlining crimes like armed robbery and murder, but they are crimes none-the-less.

Burlgaries: US: None. Ireland One. (Plus two more in Belgium, but we'll leave that)
Car Stolen: US: None. Ireland. One. (Subsequently destroyed by fire after the joyride).
Car Broken Into but not stolen: US One. Ireland. One. (The T-Bird was in multi-month open-lot storage as I was in Basic Training and was broken into the week I returned. The Fiesta spent a night on the street in Dublin)
Battery: US: None. Ireland. One. (Over a parking space, of all things).
Bike Nicked*: US None. Ireland. Two.
Mugging: US None. Ireland. One.
Identity Theft: US One. (But all money returned, and it's a recent phenomenon). Ireland None. (At least, not that my family have told me)

I can't think of anything else, but so far, for my family at least, the US seems to have been better to us in the crime department. Of course, none of this has anything to do with cops being armed.

NTM

*I don't own a bike in the US, so it may not be a fair comparison. However, I do own other assets not in Ireland, which can counter-act this.

coyote6

Orange69 wrote:

The PC brigade will eat you alive

But this extreme measure is not even needed .. all thats required is a proper justice system somewhat like that in the USA.. Seriously anyone who shoots a cop should be doing 30 years without parole and anyone who steals a car and rams a cop car should be looking at maybe 15-20.

We should have zero tolerance and a 3 strikes policy.

And nice big juicy prison somewhere in the arsehole of mayo, no luxuries, no tv and visits behind glass.. The crime problems this country has would be solved overnight..

My experience with the US justice system has left me jaded and cynical. In my neck of the woods it just seems to be worth the risk to be a scrotebag criminal. There is not much of a penalty. What that does to the cops is we just try to watch each other's backs and get through each shift. We don't worry about what the prosecutors or judges do.

I've been studying Brehon law. Now THAT may work....hold the person's family responsible for the behavior as well as the bad guy. I think laws crafted based the Brehon laws would work but the civil libertarians would have kittens.

Reku

nikolaitr wrote:

Well see thats the thing.

Criminals have easy access to guns at the moment. Forgetting that any criminal worth his salt at least has a 10 inch bread knife.
....
Thats defeatist thinking. People should have the power to defend themselves and their family, you are kidding yourself if you think the police will catch the majority of criminals, let alone stop the crime from occuring.

This is the real problem, if the gardaí weren't such an inept, lazy and incompetent force (generalisation before anyone objects) there would be far fewer illegal firearms to be used by criminals and the conviction rate for crime would be a deterent in and of itself.

A friend who is in a gun club told me about how a number of years back there was a brief period where people for some reason (honestly can't remember what it was I'm afraid:( ) were required to turn in their firearms. These were then logged along with the details of the person who turned them in. The whole thing was stopped though when one of the guns that had been handed in was used in a shooting and traced back, showing that some of the gardaí had been pocketing and selling on the guns.
Then think about the US embassy incident (where one of the gardaí tossed his sidearm to a civilian and headed home).
Do these people really have enough respect for firearms that we should so readily trust them with the authority to use them when necessary as opposed to just when they feel like it.
***coyote6 beat me to this point but I'll leave it in to echo it***

nikolaitr wrote:

Criminals would think more than twice about entering your house if there was a possibility of an armed defender inside

I feel that the sad reality is, as I've already voiced as my oppinion, they'd just make sure to be better kitted out and they'd make sure to kill the occupants before rummaging, instead of waiting to be cornered to attack.

Think of the US where police are armed as standard, there was a big incident a number of years back where 2 robbers were kitted out in full body armour and with assault rifles, was extremely difficult for the police to stop them and it resulted in a prolonged shootout which resulted in numerous people being shot.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Hollywood_shootout

Do you want all the scum bags in Ireland to be outfitted with this kind of armour and firearms?
It's as pointless as the international arms race, every side is always trying to outdo the others and as a result it just keeps escalating, when will it end, when everyone fits their home with explosives on a deadman's switch so if anyone dares break in and kill them they'll level an entire street?:(


Sad fact is that humans cannot be trusted with any kind of destructive power.

Rovi wrote:

"When seconds count, the police are only minutes away."

Anyway, I think they should bring in laws against assault and murder.

Have to say, think this is among the, if not THE, funniest use of sarcasm I've actually ever encountered.
*pats Rovi on the back*:)



And as for the belief that just because they didn't have any experiences of crime while in the US that it is safer; my American co-workers could quickly dispell that illusion.
one had addicts break in to their house and flood the basement
another had a member of his staff run past his office door carrying a handgun and pursued by the police, the man had just shot his girlfriend...
then there's stories of shootouts between meth addicts and police in caravan parks they were staying in...etc...

whereas in my entire time in this country I've only ever once been physically attacked and that was a stupid drunk and the only people I know who've had any real hassle have been from drunks and overly aggressive Roma beggers. I don't think car/bike theft is really a valid thing to compare as the guns argument is rather pointless here since an unoccupied vehicle cannot draw a gun on someone trying to steal it.

Manic Moran

farohar wrote:

A friend who is in a gun club told me about how a number of years back there was a brief period where people for some reason (honestly can't remember what it was I'm afraid:( )

How young are you?

Once upon a time, there was this place called "Northern Ireland", and the people there didn't get along. They would shoot each other! This was deemed a problem by the government, and they decided that the best way to stop everyone from shooting everyone else was to get everyone to turn in their guns. Hence the "Temporary Order" of whenever it was, 1973 or thereabouts, if I recall which created the defacto ban on pistols and large-calibre rifles.
It was only lifted after a court battle a couple of years ago.

were required to turn in their firearms. These were then logged along with the details of the person who turned them in. The whole thing was stopped though when one of the guns that had been handed in was used in a shooting and traced back, showing that some of the gardaí had been pocketing and selling on the guns.

That may have happened, but it wasn't stopped. All the firearms, usually pistols and centrefire rifles, were stored in a facility near Garda HQ. In theory, you had 'visiting rights' to your firearm. You couldn't take it out, you couldn't shoot it, but you could fondle it longingly, I guess. I recall reading an article in an Irish Shooter's magazine about five years back wherein the author reported on such a visit, and was quite approving of the manner/condition in which the firearms were stored, (I believe 30,000 of them, but that's from fading memory) and the records associated with them. I understand that the problem now is that a lot of the people who owned the firearms died/moved away over the intervening thirty-odd years, so there are a bunch of as-yet unclaimed ones.

Then think about the US embassy incident (where one of the gardaí tossed his sidearm to a civilian and headed home).

Though this is technically correct, the civilian in question was the uniformed Garda assigned to the embassy.

I don't think car/bike theft is really a valid thing to compare as the guns argument is rather pointless here since an unoccupied vehicle cannot draw a gun on someone trying to steal it.

As I said, a little off-topic, but still relevant to the 'overall crime rate' comment.

NTM

coyote6

Think of the US where police are armed as standard, there was a big incident a number of years back where 2 robbers were kitted out in full body armour and with assault rifles, was extremely difficult for the police to stop them and it resulted in a prolonged shootout which resulted in numerous people being shot.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Hollywood_shootout


That incident from a police perspecitve was a training and equipment issue. Officers had to borrow AR15's from a gun store! Excellent marksmanship is absolutely crucial for many reasons not the least of which is the safety of the public. Neutralizing guys armed and armored like the North Hollywood guys requires something larger in caliber than a handgun and very good marksmanship.

Dutes

theitking wrote:

I dont wanna sound TOTALLY unsympathetic but honestly....

Close down half the city because a gard got wounded!?!?!?!

I along with thousands of others sat in GRIDLOCK for over 90minutes thismorning while the guards examimined what was left of a crimescene. Eventually i gave up and turned around to go back home (facing even more traffic!!!)

If the garda had been shot dead i would understand totally closure but he's STABLE. If this was a member of the public a small dirvertion would be put in place..... but noooooooooooooo for a garda 'lets close half the city'

This morning i've been talking to people who have missed hospital appointments after been on waiting lists for MONTHS. People who have recieved warnings in work for being late. Students who missed their first leactures of the year. People who missed job interviews.

Bloody Stupid. Call me what ya want but i know there is a million other people sitting on the coast road right now who will agree half of Dublins northside should not have been closed over this incident!!!

Seriously - get a life you ar*ehole.
The world never has and never will revolve around you.

Celticfire

theitking wrote:

I dont wanna sound TOTALLY unsympathetic but honestly....

Close down half the city because a gard got wounded!?!?!?!

I along with thousands of others sat in GRIDLOCK for over 90minutes thismorning while the guards examimined what was left of a crimescene. Eventually i gave up and turned around to go back home (facing even more traffic!!!)

If the garda had been shot dead i would understand totally closure but he's STABLE. If this was a member of the public a small dirvertion would be put in place..... but noooooooooooooo for a garda 'lets close half the city'

This morning i've been talking to people who have missed hospital appointments after been on waiting lists for MONTHS. People who have recieved warnings in work for being late. Students who missed their first leactures of the year. People who missed job interviews.

Bloody Stupid. Call me what ya want but i know there is a million other people sitting on the coast road right now who will agree half of Dublins northside should not have been closed over this incident!!!

YOU sound very SIMILAR to this POSTER ...http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055155585

Terry

Dutes wrote:

Seriously - get a life you ar*ehole.
The world never has and never will revolve around you.

Before posting here again, please read the charter.

Personal abuse is a bannable offence.

Dave!

Manic Moran wrote:

Burlgaries: US: None. Ireland One. (Plus two more in Belgium, but we'll leave that)
Car Stolen: US: None. Ireland. One. (Subsequently destroyed by fire after the joyride).
Car Broken Into but not stolen: US One. Ireland. One. (The T-Bird was in multi-month open-lot storage as I was in Basic Training and was broken into the week I returned. The Fiesta spent a night on the street in Dublin)
Battery: US: None. Ireland. One. (Over a parking space, of all things).
Bike Nicked*: US None. Ireland. Two.
Mugging: US None. Ireland. One.
Identity Theft: US One. (But all money returned, and it's a recent phenomenon). Ireland None. (At least, not that my family have told me)

I don't know how much faith you have in the website nationmaster.com, but here's some stats from it, which they back up with sources from UN reports:

Burgularies
US: 7.09996 per 1,000 people
Ireland: 5.73755 per 1,000 people

Car thefts
US: 3.8795 per 1,000 people
Ireland: 3.69796 per 1,000 people

Assaults
US: 7.56923 per 1,000 people
Ireland: 2.47037 per 1,000 people

Robberies
US: 1.38527 per 1,000 people
Ireland: 0.601096 per 1,000 people

Murders
US: 0.042802 per 1,000 people
Ireland: 0.00946215 per 1,000 people

Total Crimes
US: 80.0645 per 1,000 people
Ireland: 20.2376 per 1,000 people

I know it isn't really relevent to the topic, but it's come up a few times...

Manic Moran

Interesting. I am particularly surprised by the burglary score. I don't have any particular reason to doubt the figures, I'll take them at face value.

I wonder if the figures are 'localised' on a regional basis? I also wonder if they're localised more on a social basis (i.e. predominantly amongst lower classes). Might explain the overall rate compared to the perceived rate.

[Edit] After looking around, I note that the FBI figures, which generally match the Nationmaster one, includes both residential and business breakins, in about a 2:1 ratio.

[Edit #2] The Garda Report of 2005 has a detailed burglary rate breakdown between homes and businesses. Interestingly, when you work out the figures for purely home burglary, they both come out almost identical, at some 4.3/1000. Of note, the Garda report has 'homeowner present' at almost 60% of burglaries, the US homeowner-present rate is just under a quarter.

Not sure what this says, really, but it was interesting finding out!

eroo

there is no need to arm the Gardai.media blowing everything out of proportion.the gardai are well able to carry out there duties without weapons.what we need is units like CO19 to patrol all major cities.just recently Limerick has been given its own armed response unit which will begin ops next month.we have ERU in dublin but there is not enough detectives in this unit and NONE of the Gardai in this country are properly resourced.sure,there are new things coming in (i.e. stab vests) but things like new radio system are just ongoing pilot projects which wont be rolled out nationally for a year or two

eoin5

Arming the gardaí with firearms will cause more social problems. Everything will get much more tense in run down areas, things will get more secular, people may take more drastic efforts to break out of the poverty cycle and will be fueled by hatred for those that keep them down. Poor people will be shot because of the situations that they get forced into by the system. Then well say "Oh another scumbag got shot by the guards stealing a car, good enough for him", and then continue eating our caviar.

We have the special branch for busts/shootouts/other serious situations and the army for moving our monies around, I think thats more than enough guns on our streets. By the reports on the incident it doesnt seem like the guard would have had a chance to shoot even if he had a gun anyway.

Wouldnt the solution be to stop the baddies getting guns you say? Well it would help a hella lot yes. The real solution is stopping what makes bad guys in the first place. Sure there will always be a contingent of any population that will choose the wrong path but theres a lot we can do to stop people from being the bad guys. Arming the guards could help this as it raises the stakes and acts a deterrant, but the end result is more people being shot and I dont believe thats acceptable. Cracking down on the drugs culture, working to alleviate poverty and giving the youth some sort of meaningful life are part of what we should be aiming for.

eroo

armed response units in every major city.ERU in dublin,plus another unit (similiar to CO19 in London) should patrol dublin.limerick has FINALLY gotten its own full-time armed patrol unit.ERU and all armed units need proper weapons.get rid of those stupid fcuking revolvers that still exist in rural stations and provide modern weapons similiar to ones used by CO19,GSG9 and other international SWAT units
-eroo

Dave!

Anybody got a list of countries in the world which have an unarmed police force? I can't think of any except for Ireland!

Boston

Our police force is as unarmed as the british one.

Trojan911

Manic Moran wrote:

For example, in the 1980s, one in five London constables were armed,

You are correct, in the sense that "normal" Police Officers were armed, i.e. they had done their "shots course". They were trained in the use of hand guns (.38 S&W) but never carried them. They were available at the station if needed & drew them when required. This was phased out in the 90's when the Armed Response Units were introduced.

Manic Moran wrote:

and a couple of years ago the city of Nottingham armed beat bobbies with external sidearms for a couple of months.

External sidearms?

TJ911...

sdanseo

Trojan911 wrote:

External sidearms?

Visible as opposed to concealed, like the current system here. Detectives don't openly carry guns.

Arming the entire Garda force would be a step in the right direction for their personal safety, but a huge step in the wrong direction for society. I's horribly unfair to shoot an unarmed Garda and as such it provokes a massive reponse like today's. Give them guns and it gives the criminals more reason to have them, and use them.

The ERU patrol system should be much more widespread and visible, but still a significant minority. They should be given fast, high-visibility cars that offer a very rapid response to any sighting of a gun, and come down hard on anyone who is found with one. The psychology of a Garda force which is for the most part unarmed is one I'd like to see kept though.

Dave!

sdonn_1 wrote:

Visible as opposed to concealed, like the current system here. Detectives don't openly carry guns.

Arming the entire Garda force would be a step in the right direction for their personal safety, but a huge step in the wrong direction for society. I's horribly unfair to shoot an unarmed Garda and as such it provokes a massive reponse like today's. Give them guns and it gives the criminals more reason to have them, and use them.

The ERU patrol system should be much more widespread and visible, but still a significant minority. They should be given fast, high-visibility cars that offer a very rapid response to any sighting of a gun, and come down hard on anyone who is found with one. The psychology of a Garda force which is for the most part unarmed is one I'd like to see kept though.

I'd support that sentiment. I'd prefer the traffic police, etc., to be unarmed, but with an increase in the ERU patrol, and their visibility too. The dangerous criminals will be aware that there's plenty of firepower close-by, whereas someone being stopped for going 2 km faster than the speed limit isn't sh*tting themselves that they'll be shot for making too sudden a move.

GerryRyan

egan007 wrote:

Yeah - solve Gun crime by introducing Guns bright Idea....

Well the whole 'shooting at fish in a barrell' strategy really isn't working out for them now, is it?

As a (hopefully) future Garda, I think it's time they had a re-think.

CLADA

Do the guards want to be armed?

Do any of them want to join ERU?

According to Paul Williams why would they?

You do what appears to be a great days work in Lusk and display courage and professionalism, after a few months the DPP decides to let you know he isn't going to prosecute.

Just as the inquest jury are about to return a verdict the Garda Ombudsman parachutes in at the last minute with a cheap promotional stunt announcing he's going to reinvestigate.

And when all thats over you can get on with rest of your life coming to terms with the fact that you killed two people.

How many of you Guards out there want to be armed?

Was that a collective "Fcuk off" I heard?

sdanseo

CLADA wrote:

Do any of them want to join ERU?

Obviously, I don't think you can be forced into it...

Somehow I doubt the whole force will be armed in the foreseeable future - as a result it will remain optional for those senior enough, I presume.

wyk

Bambi wrote:

the thing is that we dont have a gun culture here. unlike the US most of our cops would never have handled or used handguns at all, there'd be a huge amount of training needed if we armed them. They'd be a menance to demselves and joe public if ye just start handing them out shooters

I've been shooting guns for over 30 years, have owned dozens, and am quite skilled with them. I served some volunteer deputy work, as well. And let me tell you, the police int he US do not necessarily know how to use a gun either.
Don't forget the fact the police in America shoot innocent civilians often enough. We may have a gun culture in America, but we also have a horrendous crime culture as well. Ireland doesn't warrant guns...yet...I don't think.


Wez
Austin, Texas

arybvtcw0eolkf

Right so, I think the general opinion is off with garda arms.

Chop 'em all off I say.

Btw guys, you know the garda here can only operate unarmed due to the consent of a willing public. So as attacks on cops increase we might have to seriously consider arming them.

Reku

Manic Moran wrote:

How young are you?

The more relevent question is how much did I really care about gun law until it somehow affected me? Answer: didn't pay the slightest bit of attention.

Manic Moran wrote:

Once upon a time, there was this place called "Northern Ireland", and the people there didn't get along. They would shoot each other! This was deemed a problem by the government, and they decided that the best way to stop everyone from shooting everyone else was to get everyone to turn in their guns. Hence the "Temporary Order" of whenever it was, 1973 or thereabouts, if I recall which created the defacto ban on pistols and large-calibre rifles.
It was only lifted after a court battle a couple of years ago.



That may have happened, but it wasn't stopped. All the firearms, usually pistols and centrefire rifles, were stored in a facility near Garda HQ. In theory, you had 'visiting rights' to your firearm. You couldn't take it out, you couldn't shoot it, but you could fondle it longingly, I guess. I recall reading an article in an Irish Shooter's magazine about five years back wherein the author reported on such a visit, and was quite approving of the manner/condition in which the firearms were stored, (I believe 30,000 of them, but that's from fading memory) and the records associated with them. I understand that the problem now is that a lot of the people who owned the firearms died/moved away over the intervening thirty-odd years, so there are a bunch of as-yet unclaimed ones.

Now I know you're making this up as even when I was in primary school there was a local gun hunting club near my aunt (so about 15 years back maybe more).
And when in secondary school one of my teachers went pigeon shooting on the weekends. So either you're having very long term black outs or have a very strange concept of "a couple of years". Sure it was a few years back that I was actually told about this by said friend (hence why I couldn't remember what the reason behind it was).
And P.S., trying to be condescending about a topic even current primary school children are fully aware of just shows your ignorance of Ireland. Regardless of what the media where you are may like you to believe the "troubles up north" are in no way finished, they're just drastically reduced and it'll be a long time before anyone in the island of Ireland can grow up without being aware of them.

Manic Moran wrote:

Though this is technically correct, the civilian in question was the uniformed Garda assigned to the embassy.

No, according to the news reports following the incident and even when the whole thing was being investigated, the garda was the one to pass the gun to the civilian he did not pass it to the other garda (two were on duty there, got drunk during lunch and had a row), he passed it to a civilian member of the embassy staff.

coyote6 wrote:

Think of the US where police are armed as standard, there was a big incident a number of years back where 2 robbers were kitted out in full body armour and with assault rifles, was extremely difficult for the police to stop them and it resulted in a prolonged shootout which resulted in numerous people being shot.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Hollywood_shootout


That incident from a police perspecitve was a training and equipment issue. Officers had to borrow AR15's from a gun store! Excellent marksmanship is absolutely crucial for many reasons not the least of which is the safety of the public. Neutralizing guys armed and armored like the North Hollywood guys requires something larger in caliber than a handgun and very good marksmanship.

Which is just proving my point, give out guns and the criminals will just seek to better equip themselves, forcing the gardaí to better equip, causing the criminals to better equip again, etc... etc...

Manic Moran wrote:

Of note, the Garda report has 'homeowner present' at almost 60% of burglaries, the US homeowner-present rate is just under a quarter.

Homeowner present in ~60% of burlaries, yet we don't constantly hear of people being shot in their own homes except when "the individual was known to the gardaí" (i.e. was a involved in criminal gangs), and yet you want the thieves to have easier access to gun and a stronger need to put them into use when committing the robbery.

Trojan911

sdonn_1 wrote:

Visible as opposed to concealed, like the current system here. Detectives don't openly carry guns.

Arming the entire Garda force would be a step in the right direction for their personal safety, but a huge step in the wrong direction for society. I's horribly unfair to shoot an unarmed Garda and as such it provokes a massive reponse like today's. Give them guns and it gives the criminals more reason to have them, and use them.

The ERU patrol system should be much more widespread and visible, but still a significant minority. They should be given fast, high-visibility cars that offer a very rapid response to any sighting of a gun, and come down hard on anyone who is found with one. The psychology of a Garda force which is for the most part unarmed is one I'd like to see kept though.

I do not think they should be armed. I have always maintained they should be more protected i.e. introduce CS spray (very effective), the PR24 baton or the retractable ASP, the speed cuffs (joined by metal instead of a small chain & also very effective in controlling perps) & kevlar vests (which are now in). Up the ERU and disperse them around the country where warranted instead of containing them in Dublin. To arm the Gardai, in my opinion would be dangerous for them and ultimately us as well.

TJ911...

Stercus Accidit

0ubliette wrote:

Wow, some quickly googled internet 'research' is really going to win that argument. Lived in the states last year and not once was i mugged, slagged for no reason walking down the street, both of which have happened to me in my own area in dublin. The people are friendlier and nicer than any area of dublin ive ever been too but feel free to google 'irish crime rates versus US crime rates' if it makes you feel better.

Theres more social division there, like london, poor people are kept away from the wealthy.

Also kudos for bringing to light my typo, surely a mark of you're superior argument.


Edit: Oh yeah, the crime rates speak for themselves!

cjt156

Deleted User wrote:

cjt156 wrote:

WOW!!!

now you've done it - OK; show us some stats.

US safer than Ireland???

New York is definitely safer than Dublin.

You mean the tourist and financial borough of Manhattan, due to Giuliani's zero tolerance policy is safer than Dublin? Possibly, though that's like comparing it with Grafton Street and the IFSC.

How about you take a stroll through the South Bronx, Harlem or parts of Brooklyn wearing a camera and carrying a map. Easier to just carry a sign saying; Good-day homies, I am wealthy and un-armed.

seamus

Manic Moran wrote:

I am aware of the following transgressions. These are not headlining crimes like armed robbery and murder, but they are crimes none-the-less.

I'm not sure how accurate you can use that though as a comparison of Ireland -v- U.S. after all, crime rates in different areas vary greatly.

I could spend 14 years living in Terenure and experience no crime, and spend 3 weeks in Finglas and have my home burgled and my car robbed (though that probably wouldn't happen). We all know of people who've had continual trouble with crime on and off their property and we all know people (like myself) who've barely had someone get angry with them in 10 years.

So while your own experiences do indicate to you that you've been safer in the U.S., it can't be used as anything approaching a remotely reliable metric of crime rates.

Even overall or per-capita rates can be misleading. Different population spreads, different cultural dynamics and different economies, breed different types and rates of crime. Some countries may have burglary/robbery rates 10 or 20 times that of Ireland, but experience murder rates well below ours. Crime prevention methods even vary between countries - what works well in Rome or Zagreb, may not work at all in Dublin and vice-versa.

K-9

Celticfire wrote:

YOU sound very SIMILAR to this POSTER ...http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055155585

Good detective work there!

The Guard should have picked where he got shot better.:rolleyes:

Prime Time said statistics on armed robberies are down since the Lusk robbery. Miriam didn't quote a source, I presume it's Garda figures. Seems an actual risk of death for these people does work. Probably explains the rise in keyholder kidnappings as well.

Then again they where going to rob a post office armed! Statistics!

gurramok

seamus wrote:

I could spend 14 years living in Terenure and experience no crime, and spend 3 weeks in Finglas and have my home burgled and my car robbed (though that probably wouldn't happen). We all know of people who've had continual trouble with crime on and off their property and we all know people (like myself) who've barely had someone get angry with them in 10 years.

You could be wrong there on the burglar point.

Wealthier areas tend to have more stuff to rob from to attract the burglars and hence a higher burglary rate than a poorer area.

An Citeog

gurramok wrote:

You could be wrong there on the burglar point.

Wealthier areas tend to have more stuff to rob from to attract the burglars and hence a higher burglary rate than a poorer area.

They also tend to have better security systems which increase the likelihood of getting caught. I don't know the figures but I'd guess it falls somewhere in the middle.

cushtac

Wacker wrote:

There is no details on his injuries on breakingnews.ie yet. I hope he's okay. Thos vests only block stabbings, as far as I know, and would do no good against a gun shot.

The vests are dual purpose, protecting against certain firearms as well as knives.

farohar wrote:

Now I know you're making this up as even when I was in primary school there was a local gun hunting club near my aunt (so about 15 years back maybe more). And when in secondary school one of my teachers went pigeon shooting on the weekends.

He said large calibre guns & pistols were confiscated, not all guns. Shotguns & smaller calibre rifles were still licensed.

Manic Moran

farohar wrote:

Now I know you're making this up as even when I was in primary school there was a local gun hunting club near my aunt (so about 15 years back maybe more).

It seems then that back when you were in an Irish primary school, I was a member of an Irish rifle club. (God, has it been that long?).

However, here's a snip from an article from 2001: (Looks like I was two years off)
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4161/is_20011118/ai_n14538217

HUNDREDS of legally held pistols and revolvers that were confiscated during the height of the Troubles in the 1970s may soon be returned to their owners.

The move comes as the 2,500-member National Rifle and Pistol Association (NRPA), prepares to take legal action in the High Court to try to force the return of the guns to owners and shooting clubs.

The guns were collected by the Gardai and the Army in 1972 amid fears that they would be stolen by the Provisional IRA.

A special "temporary custody" order under the Firearms Act was made by the then Justice Minister, Desmond O'Malley, as the death toll in Northern Ireland rose to 500.

I'm still looking for the article on the 'visit' in the appropriate magazine, but it was a scanned article, and is proving a bit hard to find.

No, according to the news reports following the incident and even when the whole thing was being investigated, the garda was the one to pass the gun to the civilian he did not pass it to the other garda (two were on duty there, got drunk during lunch and had a row), he passed it to a civilian member of the embassy staff.

This news report seems to disagree with you. (As does the one in the Independent)
http://www.rte.ie/news/2006/1009/garda.html

One of them subsequently handed over his gun to a uniformed Garda and drove home but was arrested and subsequently convicted of drink driving.

NTM

Reku

Manic Moran wrote:

It seems then that back when you were in an Irish primary school, I was a member of an Irish rifle club. (God, has it been that long?).

However, here's a snip from an article from 2001: (Looks like I was two years off)

HUNDREDS of legally held pistols and revolvers that were confiscated during the height of the Troubles in the 1970s may soon be returned to their owners.

The move comes as the 2,500-member National Rifle and Pistol Association (NRPA), prepares to take legal action in the High Court to try to force the return of the guns to owners and shooting clubs.

The guns were collected by the Gardai and the Army in 1972 amid fears that they would be stolen by the Provisional IRA.

A special "temporary custody" order under the Firearms Act was made by the then Justice Minister, Desmond O'Malley, as the death toll in Northern Ireland rose to 500.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4161/is_20011118/ai_n14538217

I've emphasised the important bits, once 1972 passed (or certainly by the late 80's) people were out buying their guns once again and you could even see them on sale in country sports stores. So while perhaps they are only getting around to returning the ones they took in 2001 they haven't been taking them from people who legally owned them for many years.

Manic Moran wrote:

This news report seems to disagree with you. (As does the one in the Independent)
http://www.rte.ie/news/2006/1009/garda.html


NTM

Ok, my bad, had it wrong, point still stands though that you can't really trust these people to behave responsibly with firearms, the simple fact that he went drinking while carrying proves that.

K-9

farohar wrote:

Ok, my bad, had it wrong, point still stands though that you can't really trust these people to behave responsibly with firearms, the simple fact that he went drinking while carrying proves that.

Generalisation of the year! :rolleyes:

Reku

Seanies32 wrote:

Generalisation of the year! :rolleyes:

What, that you can't trust someone who goes drinking while wielding a firearm, or even while supposedly working, to behave responsibly, strange that they have warnings on heavy machinery regarding using while tired or under the influence of alcohol then isn't it I think a gun is just as lethal as heavy machinery.

If the police are to be armed they will all have to (as coyote6 pointed out) be taken away to be trained in both their use and their proper use. There would need to be a lot of accountability should anything happen when the general view of members of this forum regarding the embassy incident seemed to be that if it had not been at the embassy it would've been swept under the rug and nothing would have been done to the garda, why would improper use of firearms by gardaí be any different excepting where it results in injury to a person.
*couldn't find a damned link for the article so I'll leave out what else I had typed, I'll reenter later it if the paper's still at home.

eroo

ii you look at it,gardai most of the time have run-ins with armed criminals in cities such as limerick and dublin.limerick have finally gotten armed response unit;http://www.independent.ie/national-news/new-armed-garda-squad-to-take-on-city-gang--bosses-1085425.html
although dublin has ERU,the unit is is most of the time involved in criminal/subversive op's so can't be available to patrol all of dublin.they do patrol flashpoints but they dont have the numbers to patrol entire city.they should beef up ERU and the new limerick unit.the limerick unit numbers only a small amount of officers.it is an improvement but as i said,both units should have their membership beefed up!

eroo