FG councillor on travellers.

purple'n'gold

I have yet to see an African of any tribe or description cause any trouble in a public place here. Can’t say the same for the tinkers I’m afraid. Just speaking as I find it.

FTA69

Corinthian,

however Pavees (is that the new Traveller?)

No, that's just what they call themselves. The terms are interchangeable.

do not face racism even if they may face prejudice (be it justified or not). By definition they can't.

Race;

race2 /reɪs/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[reys] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. a group of persons related by common descent or heredity.
2. a population so related.
3. Anthropology. a. any of the traditional divisions of humankind, the commonest being the Caucasian, Mongoloid, and Negro, characterized by supposedly distinctive and universal physical characteristics: no longer in technical use.
b. an arbitrary classification of modern humans, sometimes, esp. formerly, based on any or a combination of various physical characteristics, as skin color, facial form, or eye shape, and now frequently based on such genetic markers as blood groups.
c. a human population partially isolated reproductively from other populations, whose members share a greater degree of physical and genetic similarity with one another than with other humans.

4. a group of tribes or peoples forming an ethnic stock: the Slavic race.
5. any people united by common history, language, cultural traits, etc.: the Dutch race.
6. the human race or family; humankind: Nuclear weapons pose a threat to the race.
7. Zoology. a variety; subspecies.
8. a natural kind of living creature: the race of fishes.
9. any group, class, or kind, esp. of persons: Journalists are an interesting race.
10. the characteristic taste or flavor of wine.
–adjective 11. of or pertaining to the races of humankind

.

www.dictionary.com

Racism can encompass prejudice toward ethnic groups.

JimiTime,

i can and will deny such a thing. I don't think people would care all that much if they travelled from town to town

If I went home to certain family members and mentioned I was getting married to a "clean, friendly, non-threatening and law abiding" Traveller they still wouldn't be too happy at all. And I'm sure many are the same.

Not because they choose to live in a caravan, or speak with a different accent.

But it is when people every person living in a caravan, speaking Gammin as a criminal we enter the realms of prejudice.

The fact is, alot of people don't know how to tell where a black person is from, so they'll either say, No Blacks, or wont care.

Exactly, they used to say "No Blacks" because of the bad behaviour of a few of them, and similarly they now say "No Travellers" or "Travellers by Appointment Only", and it is a similar mentality that results in the above signs and attitudes.

The difference with travellers, is that one can distinguish them as the tribe you do not want in your bar

Somalis, Ethiopians and Eritreans (who coincidentally now have the worst reputation in London) are very distinguishable owing to their height, build and features. You can spot and identify a gang of them from a mile off (try Camden Locks and Market). Likewise young Somalis are often barred from entering pubs and the like if they are in groups over 3, you may call it prevention and understandable, I simply find it unfair.

If they could be identified, then the above would apply to them also IMO. I repeat, its not about skin or ethnicity, its about behaviour!

But surely when the behaviour of others results in you taking it out on every member of that ethnic group, then it is fair to call you prejudiced?

FTA69

Corinthian,

however Pavees (is that the new Traveller?)

No, that's just what they call themselves. The terms are interchangeable.

do not face racism even if they may face prejudice (be it justified or not). By definition they can't.

Race;

race2 /reɪs/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[reys] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. a group of persons related by common descent or heredity.
2. a population so related.
3. Anthropology. a. any of the traditional divisions of humankind, the commonest being the Caucasian, Mongoloid, and Negro, characterized by supposedly distinctive and universal physical characteristics: no longer in technical use.
b. an arbitrary classification of modern humans, sometimes, esp. formerly, based on any or a combination of various physical characteristics, as skin color, facial form, or eye shape, and now frequently based on such genetic markers as blood groups.
c. a human population partially isolated reproductively from other populations, whose members share a greater degree of physical and genetic similarity with one another than with other humans.

4. a group of tribes or peoples forming an ethnic stock: the Slavic race.
5. any people united by common history, language, cultural traits, etc.: the Dutch race.
6. the human race or family; humankind: Nuclear weapons pose a threat to the race.
7. Zoology. a variety; subspecies.
8. a natural kind of living creature: the race of fishes.
9. any group, class, or kind, esp. of persons: Journalists are an interesting race.
10. the characteristic taste or flavor of wine.
–adjective 11. of or pertaining to the races of humankind

.

www.dictionary.com

Racism can encompass prejudice toward ethnic groups.

JimiTime,

i can and will deny such a thing. I don't think people would care all that much if they travelled from town to town

If I went home to certain family members and mentioned I was getting married to a "clean, friendly, non-threatening and law abiding" Traveller they still wouldn't be too happy at all. And I'm sure many are the same.

Not because they choose to live in a caravan, or speak with a different accent.

But it is when people every person living in a caravan, speaking Gammin as a criminal we enter the realms of prejudice.

The fact is, alot of people don't know how to tell where a black person is from, so they'll either say, No Blacks, or wont care.

Exactly, they used to say "No Blacks" because of the bad behaviour of a few of them, and similarly they now say "No Travellers" or "Travellers by Appointment Only", and it is a similar mentality that results in the above signs and attitudes.

The difference with travellers, is that one can distinguish them as the tribe you do not want in your bar

Somalis, Ethiopians and Eritreans (who coincidentally now have the worst reputation in London) are very distinguishable owing to their height, build and features. You can spot and identify a gang of them from a mile off (try Camden Locks and Market). Likewise young Somalis are often barred from entering pubs and the like if they are in groups over 3, you may call it prevention and understandable, I simply find it unfair.

If they could be identified, then the above would apply to them also IMO. I repeat, its not about skin or ethnicity, its about behaviour!

But surely when the behaviour of others results in you taking it out on every member of that ethnic group, then it is fair to call you prejudiced?

JimiTime

FTA69 wrote:

But surely when the behaviour of others results in you taking it out on every member of that ethnic group, then it is fair to call you prejudiced?

I would agree to a point. However, if it is persistant, and there does not seem to be much co-operation from the group in question to give up their criminals, or declare their earnings etc etc, then we enter another realm. A realm where its not unreasonable to decide not to take a chance. It would be alot more productive for all party's involved to then address the underlying issues as to why its happening, rather than just say that the world is against them. I personally have never seen a traveller come out against the behaviour of their bretheren, or even accept that they have serious issues in their society. Whatever spiel anyone wants to spin, alot of people know first hand, that its not just a small minority thats the problem, and that in itself is a big problem.

The Corinthian

FTA69 wrote:

No, that's just what they call themselves. The terms are interchangeable.

Sounds a bit like how Negro became Black, became African-American, TBH

Racism can encompass prejudice toward ethnic groups.

That's not what that definition says.

Additionally their ancestry is not all that different to any other Irishman's. Certainly they marry a lot within a narrower gene pool, but that not uncommon in a good few towns in this country and ultimately is still based on the same basic ancestry as the rest of us.

FTA69

Jimi,

and there does not seem to be much co-operation from the group in question to give up their criminals,

And how do people "give up criminals" may I ask? Do you want people to physically drag offenders down to the police station? The above nonsense argument has been used all over the world and the fact remains it is the job of the police to apprehend criminals, normal people can do little. The same is said over here with the Somalis and Jamaicans, and I can tell you if you went down to Camden Lock or Clapton and started encouraging people to "hand up the criminals" you would get a lot of laughter in your face. And the same occurs in this country, I never ratted on anybody in my life, and short of rape or sex abuse I never will either.

I personally have never seen a traveller come out against the behaviour of their bretheren

I have heard them say it to me many a time, and a distinction is always drawn between "bad" Travellers and "good" Travellers. Personally I think such support groups as Pavee Point and the Traveller Visibility Group do good work in addressing the issues of alcoholism and domestic violence, they run training and literacy workshops as well as providing support for Pavee women in difficult circumstances. That is the work that makes a difference, the fact they aren't publically shouting from the rooftops to "hand up the criminals" doesn't mean they condone criminality or are afraid to address it.

Corinthian,

Sounds a bit like how Negro became Black, became African-American, TBH

More nonsense, Pavee is a Gammin word meaning Traveller, it is a word in a different language, not an evolution along the lines of the English language. For instance Rrom and Romani are the same thing in two different languages.

That's not what that definition says.

Not exactly, but it does say that race encompasses ethnicity:

a group of tribes or peoples forming an ethnic stock: the Slavic race.
5. any people united by common history, language, cultural traits, etc.: the Dutch race.

And if race encompasses ethnicity, surely it would stand to reason that racism encompasses prejudice against different ethnic groups?

Additionally their ancestry is not all that different to any other Irishman's.

Well all our ancestry can be traced back to Ethiopia by that logic. Travellers have been around for hundreds of years, they have a different culture, language and heritage which has been set apart from ours for hundreds of years. They are Irish, but they aren't the same as us.

The Corinthian

FTA69 wrote:

More nonsense, Pavee is a Gammin word meaning Traveller, it is a word in a different language, not an evolution along the lines of the English language. For instance Rrom and Romani are the same thing in two different languages.

It is arguable that Gammin is a true language. To begin with it was artificially constructed primerraly as a means of conceling conversation from non-Travellers. It could certainly be referred to as a dialect, but a language is more debatable.

Not that it matters because I was making more of an observation as to the deconstructionist's approach to renaming things so as to change people's perception. I remember when the tinkers wanted to rebrand themselves as Travellers, and now the term is going to become Pavee. I'm sure you might argue that it was that all along, but that's not what Traveller rights groups were asking to be called a few years ago.

And if race encompasses ethnicity, surely it would stand to reason that racism encompasses prejudice against different ethnic groups?

Only if you don't use logic or reason. Race, and hence racism, refers to well defined genetic differences. Those don't exist between settled and nomadic Irish - the two groups have simply not been separate long enough.

Well all our ancestry can be traced back to Ethiopia by that logic.

No, because our ancestry in Africa was tens, even hundreds of thousands of years ago resulting in significant genetic differences. Travellers have only been around for a few hundred - by most estimates, less than four hundred.

The Corinthian

FTA69 wrote:

More nonsense, Pavee is a Gammin word meaning Traveller, it is a word in a different language, not an evolution along the lines of the English language. For instance Rrom and Romani are the same thing in two different languages.

It is arguable that Gammin is a true language. To begin with it was artificially constructed primerraly as a means of conceling conversation from non-Travellers. It could certainly be referred to as a dialect, but a language is more debatable.

Not that it matters because I was making more of an observation as to the deconstructionist's approach to renaming things so as to change people's perception. I remember when the tinkers wanted to rebrand themselves as Travellers, and now the term is going to become Pavee. I'm sure you might argue that it was that all along, but that's not what Traveller rights groups were asking to be called a few years ago.

And if race encompasses ethnicity, surely it would stand to reason that racism encompasses prejudice against different ethnic groups?

Only if you don't use logic or reason. Race, and hence racism, refers to well defined genetic differences. Those don't exist between settled and nomadic Irish - the two groups have simply not been separate long enough.

Well all our ancestry can be traced back to Ethiopia by that logic.

No, because our ancestry in Africa was tens, even hundreds of thousands of years ago resulting in significant genetic differences. Travellers have only been around for a few hundred - by most estimates, less than four hundred.

FTA69

It is arguable that Gammin is a true language.

It's an interesting discussion. Gammin is spoken in varying forms of purity, in its purest form it uses a much different idiom and syntax to English and is best described as a mix between slang, Irish and English.

Not that it matters because I was making more of an observation as to the deconstructionist's approach to renaming things so as to change people's perception.

You're losing me now with all your collegy terms.

I remember when the tinkers wanted to rebrand themselves as Travellers,

That's because tinker is now innaccurate and more than a little patronising, "knacker" is just plain abusive.

and now the term is going to become Pavee. I'm sure you might argue that it was that all along, but that's not what Traveller rights groups were asking to be called a few years ago.

Travellers rights groups aren't asking to be called that now either. As you said yourself, Pavee is a very old term and they possibly called themselves that sicne their inception. Unlike "African-American" and other overtly PC bullsh*t it is an organic term and not an artificial one invented by some academic.

Only if you don't use logic or reason. Race, and hence racism, refers to well defined genetic differences.

Not according to www.dictionary.com anyway.

No, because our ancestry in Africa was tens, even hundreds of thousands of years ago resulting in significant genetic differences.

I was being glib.

Travellers have only been around for a few hundred - by most estimates, less than four hundred.

I'd say about 450 odd, and half a millenium is quite a lot of time to drift apart.